DCEU Era |OT2| Joker's Wild

MHWilliams · Feb 2, 2019

I mean, they made an entire TV series for a decade.

There are two popular fighting games whose entire point is "Superman is bad".

And uhhh... Superman American Alien.

This is how that was sold.

This is the story of Clark Kent, a Kansas farm boy who happens to be from another planet. It's the story of a scared young kid with impossible powers, of a teenage delinquent with a lot to learn, of a reporter with a nose for the truth who's keeping the biggest secret the world has ever known.

This is not the Superman you know. Not yet.

And yet:

#1

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American Alien Is The Best Superman Story In Ages

Despite the fact that hundreds of great stories exist about Superman, one of the worst fallacies about him is that he's a boring character who's hard to write because of how all-powerful and altruistic he is. All you need to do is look at the way that Man of Steel and Batman v Superman turned out—hormonally moody in the most annoyingly adolescent way—to see that Zack Snyder and the powers that be at Warner Bros believe that idea.

Under the Radar

American Alien excels as a Superman story because it acknowledges the qualities that made the character interesting to a 1940s audience are not necessarily the same qualities we need to see in Superman in 2016. But it also proves that The Man of Steel is more malleable than we presumed, and that a search for the Kryptonian's soul could lead to his most human story to date.

Free from continuity, Superman: American Alien flies high

In an interview running in the back of all DC's titles this week, Landis mentions that DC reached out to him around the time he released his opinion piece "Regarding Clark," in which he details the qualities he values about Superman and the ways he's disappointed by the treatment of the character in Zack Snyder's Man Of Steel.

American Alien #1 is one of the best Superman comics in a year when the character has already experienced some major changes for the better. But unlike the current story unfolding in the main Superman titles, this issue isn't memorable because it takes the character in a bold new direction. It's memorable because it gets at the heart of what has made the character one of the world's popular heroes.

Note, I really don't like Landis as a persona, but American Alien is a legitimately great Superman story.

So what's the difference? Part of it is longform storytelling—as I said before there's things we allow for in serialized fiction that you won't in a movie. A TV show or comic mini-series can spread the journey out, whereas a film needs to satisfy in each picture. Harry Potter is eight films, but the first few films are completely satisfying on their own. The second is down to pure execution. As I've said, Man of Steel was flawed in a few ways, but people generally enjoyed it. the Letterboxed is 2.9 out of 5 stars, the IMDB is 7.1 out of 10. But BvS as the second part of that character's story was the misstep.

You can do a lot with Superman. Yes, he's the same noble good archetype you see in characters like Captain America, but there are things you can do with that. You can go more human, like American Alien. Authoritarian like Red Son and Injustice. Mythical like All-Star Superman:

Square jawed stoic hero like George Reeves, a lithe goofball like Chris Reeves, or pretty much anything. You just gotta execute.

And the truth is, Cavill could probably do it. but if you're going to direct Superman, you need to want to direct Superman first and foremost, and I think that's a tough nut to crack. Batman is a crime drama, that's easy. Superman is... a myth. Gotta stretch a bit.

Ichthyosaurus · Feb 2, 2019

MHWilliams said:
Authoritarian like Red Son and Injustice.

Those worked due to the fact they were self aware they were making an evil Superman who is a villain from another reality, they didn't plan on wanting the audience to like what they're doing and treat them as heroes. This is what was missing in the DCEU, until Justice League. Which was improved significantly with Whedon, as once Superman was no longer evil he acted like how he's supposed to act. He gave Superman purpose and let him speak, rather than let him stay a distant Greek god who could only communicate through violence and intimidation when he had the cape on.

Square jawed stoic hero like George Reeves, a lithe goofball like Chris Reeves, or pretty much anything. You just gotta execute.

Yup.

And the truth is, Cavill could probably do it. but if you're going to direct Superman, you need to want to direct Superman first and foremost, and I think that's a tough nut to crack.

Agreed. Had no issues with Cavill or the cast.

bigstef71 · Feb 2, 2019

https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemat...mor_according_to_mariofrancisco_robles_armie/
I really want them to choose Hammer. I feel like that would be the perfect transition from Ben and plus he's young.

broncobuster · Feb 2, 2019

I don't think that dude knows much outside of what's public

Chained Prometheus · Feb 2, 2019

bigstef71 said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemat...mor_according_to_mariofrancisco_robles_armie/
I really want them to choose Hammer. I feel like that would be the perfect transition from Ben and plus he's young.

It's worth keeping in mind that if this is accurate, Hammer is very much the studio's wish. Not Reeves, who has final say on this matter. It almost definitely won't be Hammer.

Ninjimbo · Feb 2, 2019

Pein said:
If you had to tackle a DC character who would you choose?

I sure as hell wouldn't go after Superman, I'd go with static, nightwing or the lantern. It's hard to nail a film where the character is essentially a god and if you stray from the Boy Scout people will fucking hate you.

Pretty much. I'm still not sure if the general population believes this since MoS was ultimately a success, but the amount of bitching and misconstruing going in with that movie from the people on the internet is entirely loathsome. Never seen such a whiny sack of fans apart from Final Fantasy people.

As for me, i'm picking Batman Beyond. Less because of Batman and more because of the stories you can tell with that setting and those characters. It's way more interesting than standard shit. Give me Elseworlds stories any day.

ody · Feb 2, 2019

blueredandgold · Feb 2, 2019

We do not deserve Mike and his wisdom.

I think people need to be introduced to a significantly de-powered Superman ala the 90s animated series.

He was strained when performing the tasks that other adaptions could have done without any bother at all.

The three rules of speeding bullets, locomotives and tall buildings just need to be remembered.

That show, increasingly a relic of a bygone era, was made with an admittedly old-fashioned idea of Superman.

As Batman can be adapted at different times in his career (young and inexperienced, his prime, or past it); Superman should be able to be freely changed up and shown it is not his abilities that make him super, but his actions.

But I've lived my entire adolescent and adult life being told that live action Superman films can and do not work in our modern society.

Yet it's Superman that's the problem?

Praetorpwj · Feb 2, 2019

ody said:

Why does Harley look like she works at TGI Fridays? Did we really need to keep the tattoos continuity? Note "Puddin" tattoo crossed out.

Dyl · Feb 2, 2019

I'm really surprised Margot opted to keep the tattoos. This doesn't bode well for Leto if his Joker appears again (whose chances are looking slimmer by the day, but still).

J_Viper · Feb 2, 2019

If Reeves chooses fucking Ansel Egort over Armie Hammer just burn this entire project to the ground

bigstef71 · Feb 2, 2019

Dyl said:
I'm really surprised Margot opted to keep the tattoos. This doesn't bode well for Leto if his Joker appears again (whose chances are looking slimmer by the day, but still).

Why because of the tattoos?

bigstef71 · Feb 2, 2019

J_Viper said:
If Reeves chooses fucking Ansel Egort over Armie Hammer just burn this entire project to the ground

Hammer is like the only good chose from that list. We need a Don Draper esque Bruce again

bigstef71 · Feb 2, 2019

Chained Prometheus said:
It's worth keeping in mind that if this is accurate, Hammer is very much the studio's wish. Not Reeves, who has final say on this matter. It almost definitely won't be Hammer.

I hope WB would draw the line at some point because that list of candidates is terrible besides Hammer

Dyl · Feb 2, 2019

bigstef71 said:
Why because of the tattoos?

Yeah. Even if they adjust his personality, the tattoos will still catch a lot of flak. Deservedly so.

bigstef71 · Feb 2, 2019

Dyl said:
Yeah. Even if they adjust his personality, the tattoos will still catch a lot of flak. Deservedly so.

I personally liked the tattoos. It was something different. Definitely though the personality has to change. He was too goofy in suicide squad

Chained Prometheus · Feb 2, 2019

bigstef71 said:
I hope WB would draw the line at some point because that list of candidates is terrible besides Hammer

They likely can't, seeing as how they gave Reeves full creative control during his negotiations for the gig back in 2017. And honestly no, that list isn't quite "terrible." It's just different from what I think a number of fans are expecting right now. Granted, not every name on that list excites me either.

But guys like Jack O'Connell, Aaron Taylor Johnson and Nicholas Hoult? They're all legit and would crush it as Batman in their own unique way. Which seems to be what Reeves wants for his film- something more idiosyncratic than a Don Draper type. This has been the case since he was initially looking at Jake Gyllenhaal for the part.

Ocarina_117 · Feb 2, 2019

None of the candidates on that list excite me.

Ryan Gosling is the one we need.

Chained Prometheus · Feb 2, 2019

Ocarina_117 said:
None of the candidates on that list excite me.

Ryan Gosling is the one we need.

Not what Reeves is looking for. He's deliberately going for that late 20's crowd of actors. Best of those are O'Connell (aka The Next Tom Hardy), Hoult (who's been wasted on the Beast btw) and ATJ (see: Nocturnal Animals).

Pein · Feb 2, 2019

Vordan said:
What an idiotic hot take. How do you explain all the comics, animated cartoons/movies, and TV shows that do not at all back this up? Snyder's Superman failed because if anything he wasn't human enough. People weren't exactly thrilled with Snyder's "Emo Space Jesus".

Also it looks like Cavill wanted to be able to approve the director choice, which ties back into the rumors over the contract negotiation breakdowns. Plus some directors might not be interested in trying to rebuild Snyder's Superman, rather than totally rebooting Supes.

Idiotic hot take? Superman would be a a god among us and how Snyder handled him as a dude coming to grips with his power was amazing. I know you got it out for cavill Superman but people just wanted him to be classic supes who saves the day and you can get that bullshit outta my face. Some People took that neck snap like it was their neck being snapped.

Ichthyosaurus said:
Smallville did it. Superman's like any powerful character, make him relatable and vulnerable just make it faithful and don't do it poorly. I'd be there on day one for a James Gunn Superman, just by his GOTG movies.

I'm not a fan of Gunn's quirky style for Superman, I really think he needs that team dynamic. So weird he wants krypto to just be hanging out in his movie.

Ocarina_117 · Feb 2, 2019

Zod was going to kill every single human to spite Supes

What other choice did he have in that instance?

The neck snap outrage is tiring. You can see the agony it caused supes in his reaction to it.

Kenzodielocke · Feb 2, 2019

I mean, the writers are at fault there and/or Snyder.

Greendomo · Feb 2, 2019

Ocarina_117 said:
Zod was going to kill every single human to spite Supes

What other choice did he have in that instance?

The neck snap outrage is tiring. You can see the agony it caused supes in his reaction to it.

There's a million different ways you can have that moment playout without Supes having to snap Zods neck. Can you imagine if Bale's Batman has snapped Ra's neck? But by leaving Ra's to his own fate "I don't have to save you", we don't see him as a killer. It's the difference between Keaton's "rubber bullets" and Affleck's gunning henchmen down in the dozens.

INST · Feb 2, 2019

Greendomo said:
There's a million different ways you can have that moment playout without Supes having to snap Zods neck. Can you imagine if Bale's Batman has snapped Ra's neck? But by leaving Ra's to his own fate "I don't have to save you", we don't see him as a killer. It's the difference between Keaton's "rubber bullets" and Affleck's gunning henchmen down in the dozens.

Here we go.

Again.

FatAlbert Nobbs · Feb 2, 2019

Maybe it's the Twilight baggage but I'm surprised Robert Pattinson isn't thrown around more for Batman. He'd be a great Keaton-y choice.

broncobuster · Feb 2, 2019

We're a step and a skip away from saying the Tumbler killed people, not Batman.

Wingfan19 · Feb 2, 2019

Praetorpwj said:
Why does Harley look like she works at TGI Fridays? Did we really need to keep the tattoos continuity? Note "Puddin" tattoo crossed out.

But the other one isn't on her left leg, weird.

J_Viper · Feb 2, 2019

I like Hoult but I think Dark Phoenix is gonna wreck that entire cast's career, and WB isn't gonna want anyone associated with that sure-to-be dumpster fire with their most important blockbuster franchise

ATJ would be great. Dude is jacked

Haven't seen O'Connell in anything, but he looks the the part

Jakey G is Mysterio, I don't even know why he'd be on the studio's wishlist

Ninjimbo · Feb 2, 2019

Still can't believe the neck snap caused that much outrage lol. Snyder's justification for it always rang true for me.

Do it once so you can know never to do it again.

The agony he felt after doing it is the most honest moment we have in this silly genre.

Neophant · Feb 2, 2019

I think it's important that Superman knew the value of life after having to regretfully put down the last living member of his race. If anything it makes him more compassionate and knowing the value of a life after realizing the costs of taking one are.
Finally I'm sure it was brought up before but considering how slow Zod moved his head it was clear he wanted Superman to kill him. He had nothing else to live for you and he was willing to go down as a last ditch resort. Apparently the principle is called "Suicide by Cop"?

IconGrist · Feb 2, 2019

The neck snap's full story hit in BvS when he says, "No one stays good in this world." Angers me it goes unnoticed. He killed Zod to save the world. And he hated having to do it even though it can be seen as necessary. Then he realizes when Lex ultimatums him that it seems impossible to stay good which is easy for him to believe considering he's been doubting his role (actually due to Lex behind the scenes). Despite feeling that way HE STILL TRIES TO REASON WITH BATMAN! And even says "If I wanted it you'd be dead already." He resists the whole time because he doesn't want to believe it has to be done. So in his final moments knowing he's about to die he pleads for Bruce to save his mother. He chose to let himself be beaten rather than take Batman's life as Lex demanded.

Emo and conflicted are not the same thing and I wouldn't even consider Superman conflicted based on his actions. He fought that mentality to the bitter end.

J_Viper · Feb 2, 2019

I present, the new Batman & Robin

Greendomo · Feb 2, 2019

INST said:
Here we go.

Again.

Yes the defending of the necksnap is just as tiring as the outrage. But it's tiring having to hear how we don't get the brilliance or genius of Snyder.

People can know the value of life without having to take one. Even if he had to kill Zod, there's something over the top about having to snap his neck. Again. A million different ways to write it. Defend it all you want, but it's divisive. Written another way it would still portray the same emotions and beats that you enjoy, but without alienating so many viewers.

Ninjimbo · Feb 2, 2019

IconGrist said:
The neck snap's full story hit in BvS when he says, "No one stays good in this world." Angers me it goes unnoticed. He killed Zod to save the world. And he hated having to do it even though it can be seen as necessary. Then he realizes when Lex ultimatums him that it seems impossible to stay good which is easy for him to believe considering he's been doubting his role (actually due to Lex behind the scenes). Despite feeling that way HE STILL TRIES TO REASON WITH BATMAN! And even says "If I wanted it you'd be dead already." He resists the whole time because he doesn't want to believe it has to be done. So in his final moments knowing he's about to die he pleads for Bruce to save his mother. He chose to let himself be beaten rather than take Batman's life as Lex demanded.

Emo and conflicted are not the same thing and I wouldn't even consider Superman conflicted based on his actions. He fought that mentality to the bitter end.

The fact that Superman willingly gives his life at the end to save the planet should be the indicator that he was never really conflicted about what he was trying to be. It drives me bonkers that people still characterize him as an asshole, or a jerk and whatever other superlative they can think of. Superman isn't perfect and he isn't supposed to be, but in the age of misinformation you kinda have to be to past society's inane purity tests.

The fact that BvS frames its whole story through this lens is what makes it so excellent. Superman is seen rescuing people after the bombing and yet the media still will go about framing it negatively. It's a fucking reflection of our pitiful state.

INST · Feb 2, 2019

IconGrist said:
The neck snap's full story hit in BvS when he says, "No one stays good in this world." Angers me it goes unnoticed. He killed Zod to save the world. And he hated having to do it even though it can be seen as necessary. Then he realizes when Lex ultimatums him that it seems impossible to stay good which is easy for him to believe considering he's been doubting his role (actually due to Lex behind the scenes). Despite feeling that way HE STILL TRIES TO REASON WITH BATMAN! And even says "If I wanted it you'd be dead already." He resists the whole time because he doesn't want to believe it has to be done. So in his final moments knowing he's about to die he pleads for Bruce to save his mother. He chose to let himself be beaten rather than take Batman's life as Lex demanded.

Emo and conflicted are not the same thing and I wouldn't even consider Superman conflicted based on his actions. He fought that mentality to the bitter end.

Era good enough for u but we aren't huh? I see how it is.

Raptor · Feb 2, 2019

INST said:
Era good enough for u but we aren't huh? I see how it is.

He even ignores us here too1!

My circuits aint good enough for ya Icon uh?

IconGrist · Feb 2, 2019

I'm sorry, guys. I work an insane amount. I'll try to pop in soon.

MHWilliams · Feb 2, 2019

Dyl said:
I'm really surprised Margot opted to keep the tattoos. This doesn't bode well for Leto if his Joker appears again (whose chances are looking slimmer by the day, but still).

I assume part of the "emancipation of Harley Quinn" requires the acknowledgement that the previous relationship wasn't good. The tattoos are a mark of that relationship.

Lirion · Feb 2, 2019

Just watch Joaquin Phoenix become the cannon Joker.

evil solrac v3.0 · Feb 2, 2019

Greendomo said:
There's a million different ways you can have that moment playout without Supes having to snap Zods neck. Can you imagine if Bale's Batman has snapped Ra's neck? But by leaving Ra's to his own fate "I don't have to save you", we don't see him as a killer. It's the difference between Keaton's "rubber bullets" and Affleck's gunning henchmen down in the dozens.

Rubber bullets and "I don't have to save you" are excuses you use on a child, not to mention they don't pass the logic test.
Sometimes you don't have a lot of choices and you learn from them.

Firemind · Feb 2, 2019

I never understood why people gave "I won't kill you... but I don't have to save you" a pass. Imagine if TAS Batman said that. Bruce Timm would be vilified.

Also the whole "I won't kill this man who murdered someone, but I will set fire and kill many more men while not saving that man but instead save the man who orchestrated the whole thing instead."

Greendomo · Feb 2, 2019

evil solrac v3.0 said:
Rubber bullets and "I don't have to save you" are excuses you use on a child, not to mention they don't pass the logic test.
Sometimes you don't have a lot of choices and you learn from them.

I'm not trying to open up old wounds and I'm not trying to troll. But breaking Zod's neck wasn't Clark's choice. It was Snyders. They wanted Clark to snap Zod's neck, so they wrote a way they felt naturally led to that.

What if Zod forced him to make that choice, but it didn't involve the actual neck being snapped. What if it involved a dilemma where Clark couldn't be in two places at once? You would still have Clark having to chose between saving an innocent family, or saving the last remaining member of his race? No-one is discounting the impact of him having to make a terrible decision. But I am saying there are many other ways to execute it that don't involve him snapping someones neck.

Shingi_70 · Feb 2, 2019

The main issue with Clark Killing, is it's never really brought up in Batman v Superman. We never see Clark Kent/Superman talk in his own words for what he stands for. One of the changes i would have made would have not made Bruce a Killer, but getting brutal and have have him on the Edge and lean into Clark talking him down from the ledge and how the cost is too high.

J_Viper · Feb 2, 2019

IonicSnake said:
Just watch Joaquin Phoenix become the cannon Joker.

WB totally slipped in a multi-film commitment into his contract

Vordan · Feb 2, 2019

Shingi_70 said:
The main issue with Clark Killing, is it's never really brought up in Batman v Superman. We never see Clark Kent/Superman talk in his own words for what he stands for. One of the changes i would have made would have not made Bruce a Killer, but getting brutal and have have him on the Edge and lean into Clark talking him down from the ledge and how the cost is too high.

And then he kills Zod again in BvS. If Snyder really intended for the MoS to be Clark's "Never again" moment why the hell did he shove a villain in that forced Clark to kill AGAIN? And kill the same guy AGAIN no less?

J_Viper said:
WB totally slipped in a multi-film commitment into his contract

Isn't he one of those actors who hates multi-movie commitments? I can't see him sticking around past this one movie. But I'm really curious if Leto will be returning. Gunn doesn't like Leto, Reeves doesn't plan to use Joker, and Leto's Joker would seriously need a redesign if he ever did come back. Get rid of those idiotic tattoos.

Ocarina_117 · Feb 2, 2019

Anyone reading the new green lantern run? How is it shaping up?

Vordan · Feb 2, 2019

Ocarina_117 said:
Anyone reading the new green lantern run? How is it shaping up?

Morrison? It's great, highly recommend. Has a 2000 AD feel to it that I enjoy, but I was burnt out from all the "GLC is on the verge of extinction!" Stories.

Bor Gullet · Feb 2, 2019

Firemind said:
I never understood why people gave "I won't kill you... but I don't have to save you" a pass. Imagine if TAS Batman said that. Bruce Timm would be vilified.

Also the whole "I won't kill this man who murdered someone, but I will set fire and kill many more men while not saving that man but instead save the man who orchestrated the whole thing instead."

I've seen people criticize Begins for that, especially when it came out.

Shingi_70 · Feb 2, 2019

About BvS

Superman never should have died
The Villain should have been Metallo instead of Doomsday
Clark should have been the driving force of the formation of the Justice league and not the memory of his death.

Man of Steel is a great opening movie to a cinematic Universe but Snyder completely misunderstood how to move the character forward and the DC Universe.

Batman v Superman as a film is a sound concept but it should have been more DC New Frontier and less The Dark Knight Returns.

Ocarina_117 · Feb 2, 2019

Vordan said:
Morrison? It's great, highly recommend. Has a 2000 AD feel to it that I enjoy, but I was burnt out from all the "GLC is on the verge of extinction!" Stories.

Great! May hunt down the floppies next time I'm in west end London.

Trying to find some disposable income so I can pick up the new Kingdom Come Absolute.

Shingi_70 said:
About BvS

Superman never should have died
The Villain should have been Metallo instead of Doomsday
Clark should have been the driving force of the formation of the Justice league and not the memory of his death.

Man of Steel is a great opening movie to a cinematic Universe but Snyder completely misunderstood how to move the character forward and the DC Universe.

Batman v Superman as a film is a sound concept but it should have been more DC New Frontier and less The Dark Knight Returns.

Though I love BvS UC, I hear all this.

In terms of what Snyder wanted to do with his movies, it made sense.

In terms of WB wanting an MCU it should have been the coming together of Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman. Wonder Woman slapping sense into Clark and Bruce to stop their beef and unite against a common enemy would have been ideal.

DCEU Era |OT2| Joker's Wild

Erza won

Yes

Oh hell yes

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