Dead or Alive 6 |OT| Still a Fighter

Oct 26, 2017
1,581
You're disagreeing that holds have a significant impact on balancing the roster? Then you're disagreeing with one of the core concepts of DOA. I'm not sure how or why, but you are.

My point seems to be going right by you. The point is that balancing and restricting here and there in the interest of fairness impacts how fun the game is to pick up and play. It's fun to abuse a borderline broken advantage that a character might have. A novice player might have some early success with the game and find that rewarding until learning the game a bit more. That's something that might draw new players into the game. Maybe it's not fair and high level players might not like it, so it would get nerfed. It wouldn't be nerfed to make the game more fun, it would be nerfed because high level players complained that it was unfair. If it consequently makes the game better for whatever reason, then fine. But that's not the motivation for the nerf.
If anything, it's you that the point is flying past. He's not disagreeing that holds have a significant impact on balancing the roster. It's just that holds don't inherently make everyone more balanced. Holds are core to Dead or Alive in a similar way that attacks are core to every fighter, yet everyone having the ability to attack doesn't make their attacks all balanced, and so as a result doesn't make the character themselves balanced against one another. Some characters in Dead or Alive benefit more than other characters for successfully holding the same attack, because they don't all perform the same hold. And even if they did, there would still be a ton of other factors that would prevent them from being inherently balanced against each other (such as how often they're likely to have their attacks held in the first place).

Low level players in general have no idea how to find and implement a broken move. Eddie Gordo in Tekken 3 didn't have a broken moveset. He had a bunch of moves other novice players had no idea how to deal with. This isn't at all similar to the lack of balance often observed at a higher level of play, which the novice player would almost certainly never manage to perceive the differences in.
 
Dec 1, 2017
2,332
The Land
If anything, it's you that the point is flying past. He's not disagreeing that holds have a significant impact on balancing the roster. It's just that holds don't inherently make everyone more balanced. Holds are core to Dead or Alive in a similar way that attacks are core to every fighter, yet everyone having the ability to attack doesn't make their attacks all balanced, and so as a result doesn't make the character themselves balanced against one another. Some characters in Dead or Alive benefit more than other characters for successfully holding the same attack, because they don't all perform the same hold. And even if they did, there would still be a ton of other factors that would prevent them from being inherently balanced against each other (such as how often they're likely to have their attacks held in the first place).

Low level players in general have no idea how to find and implement a broken move. Eddie Gordo in Tekken 3 didn't have a broken moveset. He had a bunch of moves other novice players had no idea how to deal with. This isn't at all similar to the lack of balance often observed at a higher level of play, which the novice player would almost certainly never manage to perceive the differences in.
Holds are not similar to attacks at all. They cannot be compared in that way to make that point.

Holds stop offense. The way that they balance the roster is that it provides every character with the same powerful tool, which is designed very intentionally so that every character can stop any other character's offense using the exact same rules, entirely independent of what that offense is, whether it's fair or unfair compared to another character's moveset. This is all widely accepted understanding, and has been in place in the series for a long, long time. It's a feature of the game.

And to your suggestion that he isn't disagreeing that holds impact the roster balance, this is exactly what was said:

No, holds do not balance the game at all.

I think that would count as disagreeing that holds balance the roster. Again, holds most certainly do. It's one of the core concepts behind the mechanic, which is a big part of the identity of the game- it's been a constant throughout the series.
 
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it's becoming frustratingly frequent how often the bonus to costume parts is actually not being applied. Three times today i've been rewarded 4-10 parts for a single arcade more run, when previously i was receiving 600+ per run. Having to reload the game every single time is becoming a pain in the ass.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,784
it's becoming frustratingly frequent how often the bonus to costume parts is actually not being applied. Three times today i've been rewarded 4-10 parts for a single arcade more run, when previously i was receiving 600+ per run. Having to reload the game every single time is becoming a pain in the ass.
I noticed I was rewarded only a few parts in arcade when my console was not connected to the internet. When I updated the console and reconnected I got 500 costume pattern parts again.
 
Dec 1, 2017
2,332
The Land
it's becoming frustratingly frequent how often the bonus to costume parts is actually not being applied. Three times today i've been rewarded 4-10 parts for a single arcade more run, when previously i was receiving 600+ per run. Having to reload the game every single time is becoming a pain in the ass.
Yeah, I have to remember to close the game before playing if the console was in rest mode.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,473
I'm pleasantly surprised! Didn't think you'd bother to be honest. Like others have mentioned, the game is quite niche. Will be looking forward to your analysis!
It's an interesting game as it feels like a half-step to me. Some elements look amazing but others seem to be lifted with slight enhancements from DOA5. So it's kind of mixed. Perhaps a lower budget? Not sure.

Also, the console versions have pretty serious image quality issues. PC version at 4K60, though, is gorgeous.

Weird to think of it as niche since it was such a huge series in the past. I guess we'll see if this video tanks!
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,784
It's an interesting game as it feels like a half-step to me. Some elements look amazing but others seem to be lifted with slight enhancements from DOA5. So it's kind of mixed. Perhaps a lower budget? Not sure.
It' seems to be lower budget and more rushed than prior DOAs... A direct comparison of the same character in the same stage shows some quite impressive results though:





 
Oct 27, 2017
264
Thanks to this thread, I’ve been on a winning streak. I’ve started using the side steps now. It’s been helping me deal with Kasumi and Marie Rose players who gave me problems before. Also I tried Nico for the first time, and I ended up on a 5 game win streak, or what would have been if that last guy didn’t rage quit during the rematch.

All these wins, and the only thing I have to show for it are unlocked costumes for Diego and Raidou.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,576
I streamed the game for the first time yesterday, only to lose 20 or so times in a row. Deranked from C- to D+ as a result. The game somehow insisted on pairing me up with the same three Kasumi players and an incredibly annoying Marie Rose. Why does her throw track on sidestep? She is rolling around like a magical armadillo. It makes no sense.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,788
  1. You completely ignored my question.
  2. Most casual players don't even know the game has changed or been balanced. It's really only noticeable at much higher skill levels. Again I go back to my example. If Team Ninja gave Mila a safe, mid tracking option, you wouldn't know the difference. Most casual players don't even bother going into training mode and finding out what tracks or doesn't track.
  3. No, holds do not balance the game at all. You could possibly make a weak argument toward that if all holds were equal, but they're not. Holds are essentially the DOA equivalent of a comeback mechanic and don't balance the game. It's just like every character having a super in SF doesn't balance that game.
  4. A fighting game is almost never balanced on release day. In fact, most people would be shocked if a fighting game released in a relatively balanced state.
DOA tries to offer an alternative for balance by making a vast majority of the gameplay revolve around guessing. However, even with that, balance really only matters at a high level of play. Anyone not playing at that level won't feel the impact of most balance changes and won't know if a game is balanced or not.



Some of the pro players really like it, others don't like the new sidestep or Break Blow/Holds because it removes a small amount of the guessing and they like the game to be 99% guess work instead of 90% guess work (yomi, reading the opponent, whatever you want to call it).



The sidestep is fine. I'd actually like to see it buffed, but you'd have to make some system changes to add a real sidestep to DOA, so I understand why we have what we have.

The problem is that Team Ninja did not go through each character's move list to see how an evasive sidestep would effect their gameplay. That has caused a big imbalance with some characters losing a lot because of the new sidestep.

I would've much rather they pushed Nyotengu and Phase 4 to post-launch DLC and left some time to really make the characters feel like they're in DOA6 and not DOA5.5. On average, each character only has about 2-3 new attacks with some minor adjustments to properties (completely unrelated to the new step). If they had added maybe 10 new moves and adjusted tracking on older moves, I think the game would work much better with the sidestep (and overall).



Are you on wifi? I agree that this is some of the worst netcode I've seen in a fighting game, but I can punish SS attacks 90% of the time. I'm not getting max punishment, but I can get my i7 throw every time. If you can't punish it, then just use a tracking move or throw if you anticipate a SS is coming.

As far as too much damage... the damage was nerfed from the TGS build to release. It now does less damage than most neutral throws (normal hit) and counters. That's not taking into account counter or hi-counter damage either.

As I said above, the game is not balanced around SS at all. But even under these conditions, I don't agree with your statements.



I don't think the issue is delay. SC and Tekken use delay-based netcode and they're 10x better than DOA6 netcode. I think it's a combination of bad netcode, the crazy input buffer that's been in DOA for awhile, and the low recovery on a lot of attacks in DOA.



What rank are you? I find that most of the people I play rematch, even when I stomp them. It's not everyone, but a vast majority for sure. For the most part, it seems as though if I randomly get matched against anyone below a B, there's a higher chance they won't rematch. But otherwise it's almost always a rematch.



She was buffed from DOA5LR to DOA6. Not sure why she was buffed when most other characters were hardly touched, but they need to bring her back down. She's especially annoying online when you can't react to anything.
I’m on wired. The input buffer is a big fuck you to precise inputs. I hope this is addressed first. I goddamn hate it.

the side step mechanic is just bad all around. It looks visually jarring, I don’t even know what is horizontal or not. I don’t even think Team Ninja knows. Just trial and error figuring it out. The higher the ranking goes the more abused this mechanic is. Even I feel dirty using it, they even crush highs at times, and can lead into wall and environmental damage. The window in which I can use a throw to punish it and the attack comes out makes it too much of a risk online. It breaks the flow of the match and becomes a new RPS mechanic that just isn’t needed. It’s also superior to natural side step moves. I see no reason to use Helena’s new side step move unless I’m hard up to see a new animation.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just use the side step mechanic from 5. At least it was designed with DOA in mind and added variety to characters.

DOA players do not rematch regardless of ranked, even if you give them a rematch they almost always try and leave with their win. After a few hundred matches and almost B plus, I’ve played players up to A plus and I do not get rematches. Regardless of character used, quality connection, etc... mediocre players are trying to exploit the ranking system. That’s it. I’m just trying to unlock these costume points folks, I’m not even going all out.
 
It's an interesting game as it feels like a half-step to me. Some elements look amazing but others seem to be lifted with slight enhancements from DOA5. So it's kind of mixed. Perhaps a lower budget? Not sure.

Also, the console versions have pretty serious image quality issues. PC version at 4K60, though, is gorgeous.

Weird to think of it as niche since it was such a huge series in the past. I guess we'll see if this video tanks!
Cool, I'm looking forward to this one.
 
Oct 27, 2017
994
Came in here hoping to see if the mid-March update came out yet and while I leave disappointed that it hasn't, I at least know I have a Digital Foundry video to look forward to soon. :)
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,458
You're disagreeing that holds have a significant impact on balancing the roster? Then you're disagreeing with one of the core concepts of DOA. I'm not sure how or why, but you are.

My point seems to be going right by you. The point is that balancing and restricting here and there in the interest of fairness impacts how fun the game is to pick up and play. It's fun to abuse a borderline broken advantage that a character might have. A novice player might have some early success with the game and find that rewarding until learning the game a bit more. That's something that might draw new players into the game. Maybe it's not fair and high level players might not like it, so it would get nerfed. It wouldn't be nerfed to make the game more fun, it would be nerfed because high level players complained that it was unfair. If it consequently makes the game better for whatever reason, then fine. But that's not the motivation for the nerf.
Synth pretty much said all that's left to say here.

The only point that really matters at this juncture is that you lack a high level understanding of the game. Yes, holds and the triangle system in general are a fundamental part of DOA. Having a stronger hold (one that launches or offers a reset) can make a character better, but they do not balance the game simply by existing.

Bottom line, you very likely wouldn't be able to determine if DOA6 was balanced or not. You simply don't know enough about the game. This has been an insightful conversation though...

I’m on wired. The input buffer is a big fuck you to precise inputs. I hope this is addressed first. I goddamn hate it.

the side step mechanic is just bad all around. It looks visually jarring, I don’t even know what is horizontal or not. I don’t even think Team Ninja knows. Just trial and error figuring it out. The higher the ranking goes the more abused this mechanic is. Even I feel dirty using it, they even crush highs at times, and can lead into wall and environmental damage. The window in which I can use a throw to punish it and the attack comes out makes it too much of a risk online. It breaks the flow of the match and becomes a new RPS mechanic that just isn’t needed. It’s also superior to natural side step moves. I see no reason to use Helena’s new side step move unless I’m hard up to see a new animation.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just use the side step mechanic from 5. At least it was designed with DOA in mind and added variety to characters.

DOA players do not rematch regardless of ranked, even if you give them a rematch they almost always try and leave with their win. After a few hundred matches and almost B plus, I’ve played players up to A plus and I do not get rematches. Regardless of character used, quality connection, etc... mediocre players are trying to exploit the ranking system. That’s it. I’m just trying to unlock these costume points folks, I’m not even going all out.
I highly dobut they'll adjust the input buffer, but you're very right that it's a huge issue.

You can go into training mode and turn on frame data to see what tracks and what doesn't. I have a spreadsheet going with some character's moves and properties so I can easily see what's tracking, how much adv I get in stun, what's safe, etc. It's even color coded. I only have maybe a dozen characters done, but all the info you need is right there in the game.

SS attack is -15. Your fastest throw is i5 (i4 if you're a grappler). The netcode is terrible, but in a decent connection I have no issue using an i7 throw to punish a blocked SS attack. What happens when you try?

There are a lot of ways to punish someone who doesn't use SS well. I love when I run into someone who thinks they can step all day. It's like a free win for me. What character are you using? Maybe I can help.

If we're just talking Helena, 4PP and 1PP are my go-to attacks to stop step. As for Helena's new SS attack... it's from BKO. You can't use the normal SS from BKO. Not only that, but it stuns long enough to get a launch if they don't counter. In many ways it's better than the default step... although I strongly dislike the notation for it.

As I said, I 100% agree the game is not balanced around step, but this actually benefits Helena (while hurting other characters). You should be having a field day, especially since people don't want to go into training mode to see what tracks.

With rematching, I don't know what to say. We're around the same rank (I'm less than 2k from A- at the moment), but I rarely have people not rematch.

Oh! One thing I have noticed... are you rushing to the rematch screen and quickly asking for a rematch? As soon as you hit rematch, the opponent only has 10 seconds to get to that end screen and accept. If they don't it'll say declined. So if you rush there a lot of people won't get to the screen in time. I recommend stopping at the last screen, then waiting for the rematch countdown to start in the upper right corner, then hit rematch.

Also, can you post match videos? I can probably help with your sidestep issues if I can see how you're playing, especially if you're using Helena.
 
Oct 28, 2017
883
So I’ve been playing a lot of Tina lately, but for what ever reason I can’t find the command input for her wake up grab. Anyone know what it is?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,177
Can’t seem to break the C+ rank on PC with Tina - some epic close matches tonight, but just couldn’t get in a rhythm. I’m really enjoying plugging an old arcade stick and throwing down, switching to a PS4 pad of feeling tired. I’ve been heartily enjoying the game, I feel like the costumes included weren’t great so I’m not too worried about unlocking anything.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,788
I see.


DrDogg
Just speculation, I think he's using Helena and Christie, right DR2K? :P
Yeah. But messing around with other characters due to repetitive move sets

This side step mechanic is not going to be punished if you’re in mid string. This shit is like dropping the soap in the bathroom. It is a really broken mechanic, but glad there’s enough to punish it at optimal settings offline in training room.

Literally 70 percent of my matches end in declines. I’m getting declined now lol
 
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Oct 27, 2017
62
So I’ve been playing a lot of Tina lately, but for what ever reason I can’t find the command input for her wake up grab. Anyone know what it is?
You can only do it when Tina is laying on her stomach and facing towards the opponent, all you need to do is press the Throw button. You can also follow up with a combo throw with back, down, forward + Throw for some extra damage.
 
Oct 28, 2017
224
Finally doing okay online again only to get matched with someone 2 letter grades above me and put me back in my place. I didn't think they would match you with someone that far out
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,458
Yeah. But messing around with other characters due to repetitive move sets

This side step mechanic is not going to be punished if you’re in mid string. This shit is like dropping the soap in the bathroom. It is a really broken mechanic, but glad there’s enough to punish it at optimal settings offline in training room.

Literally 70 percent of my matches end in declines. I’m getting declined now lol
So you're doing a linear string and getting stepped? If that's the case, don't do linear strings, or at least free cancel after a few hits if it's blocked. You can't just toss out a linear string at random. I will step you every time.

Matches vids would still help, but I don't know what to tell you about the rematches. I'd say it's easily 80% rematch for me. Probably closer to 90% if I kept track.


Finally doing okay online again only to get matched with someone 2 letter grades above me and put me back in my place. I didn't think they would match you with someone that far out
I have my settings on 5 bar only. Occasionally if I'm searching too long I'll see someone two letter grades down. It's rare, but I happens.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,788
So you're doing a linear string and getting stepped? If that's the case, don't do linear strings, or at least free cancel after a few hits if it's blocked. You can't just toss out a linear string at random. I will step you every time.

Matches vids would still help, but I don't know what to tell you about the rematches. I'd say it's easily 80% rematch for me. Probably closer to 90% if I kept track.




I have my settings on 5 bar only. Occasionally if I'm searching too long I'll see someone two letter grades down. It's rare, but I happens.
I’ll have vids up, just grinding for costume points... zzz

But the attack moves horizontally between strings but it’s treated like a vertical attack. It’s just visually jarring. Are these moves also crushing highs?

If I even delay my string there’s an opening to step evade, high crush, knock me into hazard , etc... It’s just adding more random elements and jarring wonky looking transitions to a game that really doesn’t need them. I shouldn’t have to go to training mode and look through frame data when the motion of an animation should naturally do that.
 
Nov 24, 2017
2,668
Every time I have tried fighting people online in ranked I get matched with one bars. Maybe I should stop trying to play at weird times of the day though, heh.

For one bar matches they honestly are not that bad compared to some other games I have played.