Dead or Alive 6 |OT| Still a Fighter

Synth pretty much said all that's left to say here.

The only point that really matters at this juncture is that you lack a high level understanding of the game. Yes, holds and the triangle system in general are a fundamental part of DOA. Having a stronger hold (one that launches or offers a reset) can make a character better, but they do not balance the game simply by existing.

Bottom line, you very likely wouldn't be able to determine if DOA6 was balanced or not. You simply don't know enough about the game. This has been an insightful conversation though...
That's funny. What I argued would be nearly verbatim from someone at Team Ninja. Bring this up to anyone close to the game, either who represents TN or works on the game, if that opportunity ever pops up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,576
Losing to high ranking players solely because they play with imposed lag never fails to make me rage. I don't want to, but I am considering just dropping the controller whenever I encounter a player like that going forward. Just now I lost 2:3 to a Lisa because the match was nigh unplayable, and that I came so close just makes it so much more frustrating.
 
Oct 27, 2017
994
Great video, John! The HDR on my X1X actually lightens up the look of the game quite a bit. The footage in your video was noticeably darker than how it looks on my TV with HDR on. I know you can't really capture HDR for a Youtube video, so I understand why, but I thought I'd mention that.

Can't believe we still don't know when the mid-March update is coming! Its mid-March!
 
Oct 27, 2017
440
Germany
Hopefully we'll get the costume parts boost a bit longer. If I remember correctly the initial boost should've last two weeks, so this Friday might be the end for the boost...

I only need to unlock 30 costumes, but we still don't know the normal number of parts after the boost.
 
Hopefully we'll get the costume parts boost a bit longer. If I remember correctly the initial boost should've last two weeks, so this Friday might be the end for the boost...

I only need to unlock 30 costumes, but we still don't know the normal number of parts after the boost.
I thought I read on their twitter account that the increase was permanent, although it was translated from japanese so who really knows what the hell it said.
 
That's funny. What I argued would be nearly verbatim from someone at Team Ninja. Bring this up to anyone close to the game, either who represents TN or works on the game, if that opportunity ever pops up.
I can't figure out what point you're trying to argue but it's been painfully obvious that the current dev team has no understanding of how their own game plays so this doesn't help your case.
 
Oct 25, 2017
771
I hope in all the feedback you sent to Team Ninja, you all told them launching without lobbies is inexcusable.

And if it was pushed to launch for Final Round like I had somebody mused to me, the game management is coming from the wrong angle. Gameplay great, but there are some compromises that make no sense. I would never put out a game for some meaningless event.
 
Oct 29, 2017
524
I was really counting on the boost being permanent as I'm busy with DMC5 atm and will be busy with Sekiro starting next week for at least a couple of months so prolly won't get a chance to play DOA6 again for a while. Pretty sure it is permanent thou so hopefully it can only get better from here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,458
I’ll have vids up, just grinding for costume points... zzz

But the attack moves horizontally between strings but it’s treated like a vertical attack. It’s just visually jarring. Are these moves also crushing highs?

If I even delay my string there’s an opening to step evade, high crush, knock me into hazard , etc... It’s just adding more random elements and jarring wonky looking transitions to a game that really doesn’t need them. I shouldn’t have to go to training mode and look through frame data when the motion of an animation should naturally do that.
I don't know what to tell you. Sorry you have to look at what tracks if you want to win? Some of the animations are deceptive, but SS basically just has invulnerable frames to anything that doesn't track. It just goes right through.

And you don't have to delay your string at all. If you're using a linear string and I block, I can step you even if you're attacking at full speed.

You can probably still beat novice players by just doing whatever string you want, but if you want to beat someone good, yeah you need to hit training mode and learn what tracks.

Sorry, but I don't understand why that's a problem.

Losing to high ranking players solely because they play with imposed lag never fails to make me rage. I don't want to, but I am considering just dropping the controller whenever I encounter a player like that going forward. Just now I lost 2:3 to a Lisa because the match was nigh unplayable, and that I came so close just makes it so much more frustrating.
From a competitive standpoint, even in the best conditions (5 bar, wired), the game is essentially unplayable. While I try to win every match, I don't worry about losing because most people abuse tactics that wouldn't work on me in an offline environment (whether it's intentional abuse or not). So if I lose, I lose. Either way it's not a real match due to the terrible netcode.

So try not to let it get to you. It can be frustrating, but just let it go and move on to the next match, knowing you probably would've won if there was no lag.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,788
I don't know what to tell you. Sorry you have to look at what tracks if you want to win? Some of the animations are deceptive, but SS basically just has invulnerable frames to anything that doesn't track. It just goes right through.

And you don't have to delay your string at all. If you're using a linear string and I block, I can step you even if you're attacking at full speed.

You can probably still beat novice players by just doing whatever string you want, but if you want to beat someone good, yeah you need to hit training mode and learn what tracks.

Sorry, but I don't understand why that's a problem.



From a competitive standpoint, even in the best conditions (5 bar, wired), the game is essentially unplayable. While I try to win every match, I don't worry about losing because most people abuse tactics that wouldn't work on me in an offline environment (whether it's intentional abuse or not). So if I lose, I lose. Either way it's not a real match due to the terrible netcode.

So try not to let it get to you. It can be frustrating, but just let it go and move on to the next match, knowing you probably would've won if there was no lag.
Because I don’t learn games that way or anything that way. If there’s no visual feedback that I can logically assert.

DOA prides itself in being an easy fighter to learn. Learning what constitutes as horizontal and a horizontal looking move being evaded is just so jarring.

It’s really the built in input delay and buffer that’s hurting the mediocre online experience. It’s adding salt to the injury. I’m winning most of my matches, I don’t like how I’m forced to abuse the SS
 
I unlocked all costumes. They must’ve fixed the DLC costume bug since I didn’t get any patterns towards Phase 4 while I got some towards Nyotengu before I got my preorder code. We’re going to need a gold increase patch since I’ve got all the costumes but not enough gold to buy all the costumes I want.
 
I can't figure out what point you're trying to argue but it's been painfully obvious that the current dev team has no understanding of how their own game plays so this doesn't help your case.
My point was that holds contribute to balancing the roster. It's evident just playing the game that it does. It was evident years ago when it did the same in the previous games. It's not my argument- it's KT's, they said the same thing about holds and roster balance while explaining the game on stream at NLBC this week. It's kind of weird how I'm getting so much pushback. I mean, you could just play the game and it's obvious. It's been in place in DOA games for decades. It's far from a controversial statement.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,581
My point was that holds contribute to balancing the roster. It's evident just playing the game that it does. It was evident years ago when it did the same in the previous games. It's not my argument- it's KT's, they said the same thing about holds and roster balance while explaining the game on stream at NLBC this week. It's kind of weird how I'm getting so much pushback. I mean, you could just play the game and it's obvious. It's been in place in DOA games for decades. It's far from a controversial statement.
You're getting pushback because you're arguing something you clearly don't understand, and the appeal to authority using Team Ninja's statements doesn't change that. I've been playing the DOA games since the very first game hit the arcades, and during that time it's made it obvious that holds don't result in an inherently balanced cast, or even a cast more balanced than a similar game without universal holds (say Virtua Fighter for example). The reasons for this should be simple and obvious, and people here have been trying to detail these to you, but you've simply been reiterating that holds balance the game without providing any logical examples on why this would be the case in light of some character's holds being better than others. I'll try to illustrate the flaw in your logic with two very extreme (exaggerated) examples.

Firstly, let's imagine one character if they successful hold either a mid punch or a mid kick immediately does 100% damage to your character, meaning that a single successful hold on the most common attack level now wins them the round immediately. Would a different character that when they hold the same attack does 10% damage be balanced simply because both the described characters can hold any mid attacks? Obviously not, right? But your argument of holds automatically balancing the cast regardless of details should allow for this scenario to be balanced also.

Next, let's just imagine everyone has the exact same holds in all situations. Everyone when they hold any attack does 25% dmg to their opponent and leaves them in exactly the same neutral position. Surely the entire game would be balanced now right, because we've even taken away the natural differences between holds that actually exist in the real game. But no... what if a character has their only strong attacks all be mid-punch? When fighting this character, you'll probably land that 25% dmg hold far more frequently than they'll land the same on you, because more often than not you'd be able to simply opt to hold mid-punch and catch them the majority of the time, they on the other hand will probably end up deeper stunned and launched for half their life because your character can actually mix up their attack patterns to a decent extent.

The second example actually does have some parallel in a real fighter. Street Fighter III actually does have a true universal reversal mechanic, parrying. Everyone can parry just as well as everyone else, and yet other factors in the characters' movelists, and the options available to them after a successful parry see a few of the characters rise to the top of tier lists, whilst others are considered non-viable competitively. Hopefully this should illustrate that no one mechanic in isolation balances a roster. Even having the exact same tool for everyone has different effects due to everything else they're made up of. This shouldn't even be something anyone with even a basic understanding of fighting games (or games in general) should think to question... yet here we are.

Finally, if you want to take statements and design decisions of the development team as gospel, consider this: Itagaki previously stated that the Ninja characters in Dead or Alive were created to be the strongest characters in the game because... well... they're Ninja, and that's just how it should be. Now, this directly conflicts with the idea that the cast would be inherently balanced because the game has holds, because the game always had holds even back then. Secondly, when DOA3 initially released there was a lot of noise about Hayate basically breaking the game with his nigh-invincible cartwheel move. This was fixed in DOA3.1, but surely fixing this shouldn't have even been an issue, right? After all, everyone has holds, so it should all be fair and balanced because they could all just attempt to hold his attack once he was done dancing all around them.


If you decide to respond to this post, please address the points I have made directly, detailing why the logic I have given is flawed. Please don't just respond with something along the lines of "everyone can hold" or "Team Ninja says so". Please actually look at the situation critically, and provide an answer that shows your own understanding of the matter. Thanks.
 
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You're getting pushback because you're arguing something you clearly don't understand, and the appeal to authority using Team Ninja's statements doesn't change that. I've been playing the DOA games since the very first game hit the arcades, and during that time it's made it obvious that holds don't result in an inherently balanced cast, of even a cast more balanced than a similar game without universal holds (say Virtua Fighter for example). The reasons for this should be simple and obvious, and people here have been trying to detail these to you, but you've simply been reiterating that holds balance the game without providing any logical examples on why this would be the case in light of some character's holds being better than others. I'll try to illustrate the flaw in your logic with two very extreme (exaggerated) examples..
Why would I jump through hoops to prove a self evident point (on a surface level, even) that is echoed by explanation of the game by paid KT staff when they explain the game at FGC events when they are promoting it, all while being told I don't understand the game enough to discuss it. If you don't find me credible, just ignore me I guess.

Just to reiterate- my point is that the hold system significantly helps to balance the roster, not that it's 100% fair.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,581
Why would I jump through hoops to prove a self evident point (on a surface level, even) that is echoed by explanation of the game by paid KT staff when they explain the game at FGC events when they are promoting it, all while being told I don't understand the game enough to discuss it. If you don't find me credible, just ignore me I guess.

Just to reiterate- my point is that the hold system significantly helps to balance the roster, not that it's 100% fair.
Well, I was explaining why it's not self-evident to those that understand the concept and don't just take the development team's promotional word for it. What I laid out in that post is conclusive logic on why what you're saying isn't the case, even to the point of providing examples where you can have the hold system make a game far less balanced than that same game without holds would be.

But fair enough. You do you.
 
Nov 24, 2017
2,668
I am now neutral on NiCO and Diego, but their designs are just so lame and obnoxious. Not anywhere as bad as Honoka but It makes no Leon, Momiji, Rachel, Akira or Sarah kinda sting more honestly. Thankfully I think the first three will be added in sometime next year.

I miss Gen Fu as well, but honestly his moveset becoming part of Eliot's was such a brilliant decision. It makes Eliot a lot more interesting! I think bringing in some of Alpha's moveset for Phase 4 would make her way more appealing too, honestly.
 
I am now neutral on NiCO and Diego, but their designs are just so lame and obnoxious. Not anywhere as bad as Honoka but It makes no Leon, Momiji, Rachel, Akira or Sarah kinda sting more honestly. Thankfully I think the first three will be added in sometime next year.

I miss Gen Fu as well, but honestly his moveset becoming part of Eliot's was such a brilliant decision. It makes Eliot a lot more interesting! I think bringing in some of Alpha's moveset for Phase 4 would make her way more appealing too, honestly.
Diego is ok to me. It just bothers me how much he looks like Travis Touchdown.


 
Oct 30, 2017
857
Alright. Any competent/high-level Marie Rose players here? I cant find any on Twitch/Youtube and I'm trying to understand what is so great about her enhanced holds that require an additional directional input?

Some do less damage than the base holds. Which makes them require more risky input for less reward
One of them does very little damage and spins the opponent around (I think its her high punch hold) but it seems like its negative on execution because every time I've used that against my online opponents they have had moves that still are quicker on startup to counter me.

What is the intended function for these?
 
Oct 27, 2017
440
Germany
The best thing is: no pattern parts will go to waste anymore. If you have multiple costume still locked for your character, all the points go to random costumes. If you already unlocked every costume for your character the points go to random costumes of other characters.
 
The best thing is: no pattern parts will go to waste anymore. If you have multiple costume still locked for your character, all the points go to random costumes. If you already unlocked every costume for your character the points go to random costumes of other characters.
Yeah, thats great news, I'm out of town this weekend but should be able to unlock all the costumes I want before they end 100x promo.

Did you notice if there were new character intros/victory poses too?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,784
Is there any increase to the number of parts received?
The 100x boost is apparently still on until the end of the month. It should just stay permanently like this. After two weeks of costume pattern grinding I still don't have half of the costumes unlocked and not much for the characters I like. Also, I am constantly low on in-game money, so I can't actually purchase all the costumes that I unlocked with enough costume patterns.