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Dead or Alive 6 |OT| Still a Fighter

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,211
Momiji and Rachel are the two most distinct styles outside of the VF characters not repped in 6, so I am pretty happy to hear it seems to be them next instead of another guest.

Alpha is really unique too but I really rather not see her return. I would be day one for Leon as well but I rather Akira and Sarah return before him.

Thank you! This is quite an excellent selection of songs! Many of them do not fit well with the combat unfortunately but I suppose I can just swap them into some of the menus sometimes.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,506
Now I see it. Yeah, looks like his model stretches in general faulty.

Over on FSD someone posted this:



The models are in general of poor quality and full of such errors. That was not the case in DOA5.
Game is rushed and unpolished with seemingly no interested in really improving the game.

Game exists because support for 5 ended and KT wanted to keep the dlc train going again as fast as possible that is all that matters because if the quality of the game was any concern we wouldn't have a DoA6 that fails to even be on par with 5 in many aspects.

I really hope TN themselves aren't happy with what is happening, with the subpar work of the outsourced models and the general lack of polish caused by a rushed development and the shitty new engine, and the game gets major improvements with a good amount of TN staff on it for a Ultimate version as a relelase or major update for those owning DoA6
 
Aug 26, 2018
311
The models are in general of poor quality and full of such errors. That was not the case in DOA5.
Something else that's annoying if you want to get down to the details is that the rigging on the hair is worse. In DOA5LR, if a character had a ponytail, some strands of the ponytail moved independently, creating a better illusion of...well, hair. But in this game, even though it's obviously the same hair model, the ponytail all moves uniformly. You can see it if you spin Kasumi or Helena around in the model viewer. I can't spend the time to make a mock-up comparison, though.

It's not the end of the world, but it's just another example of their cutting corners. Things are supposed to look better than the last game, not worse. And there's just too many instances where it looks worse.
 

Tyaren

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,235
Game is rushed and unpolished with seemingly no interested in really improving the game.

Game exists because support for 5 ended and KT wanted to keep the dlc train going again as fast as possible that is all that matters because if the quality of the game was any concern we wouldn't have a DoA6 that fails to even be on par with 5 in many aspects.

I really hope TN themselves aren't happy with what is happening, with the subpar work of the outsourced models and the general lack of polish caused by a rushed development and the shitty new engine, and the game gets major improvements with a good amount of TN staff on it for a Ultimate version as a relelase or major update for those owning DoA6
I wonder what Koei Tecmo is thinking about the state of DOA6. It being so poorly critically received, it not selling well and the active community playing the game online having shrunk considerably.
I also wonder what their reasons are to keep selling DLC, which I also believe is the main reason this game even exits for, not individually only on PS4 in the West. I assume the biggest group of DOA6 owners/players are actually on PS4, and that in Europe and the US. Do they really make more profit by only selling full costume sets? I know several people, including me, that spent hundreds on DOA5 DLC over the years, but always individually, and now that this is not possible for us anymore we are refusing to buy any DLC at all. Do the far fewer people that are willing to buy full sets making them indeed more money?

Something else that's annoying if you want to get down to the details is that the rigging on the hair is worse. In DOA5LR, if a character had a ponytail, some strands of the ponytail moved independently, creating a better illusion of...well, hair. But in this game, even though it's obviously the same hair model, the ponytail all moves uniformly. You can see it if you spin Kasumi or Helena around in the model viewer. I can't spend the time to make a mock-up comparison, though.

It's not the end of the world, but it's just another example of their cutting corners. Things are supposed to look better than the last game, not worse. And there's just too many instances where it looks worse.
This is very likely the case, because they mostly outsourced character and environment art to a Vietnamese studio. Real Team Ninja were always famed for their incredible visual polish, unfortunately real Team Ninja are mostly not even working on DOA6's visuals anymore.
If you look at the new beach stage you can also notice a lot of aspects in which this stage is even inferior to DOA5 visuals. Incredibly low resolution cloud and sky textures, static/fake lens flare, unconvincing water shaders, jaggy foliage, missing atmospheric perspective, and so on...
 
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Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,742
Yeesh, and here I thought the sleeves on Kasumi's 5 outfit being oversized on the new model would be the worst of the oversights with her specifically (not gonna quote the video showing the skinning issue, the thumbnail for it is plenty unsettling enough).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,169
I've never been one to really get annoyed by nerfs, but this latest nico nerf is killing me...she wasnt even close to top tier anymore, the last of her pressure options are now garbage, and they just straight removed the one launcher that led to good damage.
 

SmokedSalmon

Member
Apr 1, 2019
485
Tyaren, we have a verdict. And, it's...not good. I'll have to check some other characters.

So I had the chance to finally look into this a bit.

This seems to be an issue with vertex weighting. Basically a character has a skeleton with joints, and each joint is weighted to control specific vertexes on a mesh.

To test everything I'm using DOA5&6 model extractions that I found on deviantart.

There are two neck joints on DOA5&6 models: a lower and upper neck joint.

DOA5 Eliot and Hayate on top and DOA6 Jann Lee and Diego on the bottom.

Notice also how the models have a seam on the neck. This is because the head and body are technically separate from each other, having a cut off point around the center of the neck. You can kind of see the seems if you look really closely when you view the models in game. I'm going to call these "Body" and "Head." (As a side note, holy crap DOA 6 models have a ton a bones for their faces)

What interesting/weird about the way these models distribute vertex weighting is that the lower neck joint is weighted in such a way that its twists only on the Body part of the neck mesh. The Upper neck joint twists both the Body and Head part of the neck mesh.



Notice above when I've twisted the neck using the neck lower joint the Head mesh has no deformation. This gives off an natural look because the bottom half of the neck is twisting but the upper part looks exactly the same.

On the bottom when I've twisted the neck using the neck upper joint, both the Body and Head mesh twist together giving a more natural look.


So it seems that the problem here is that in DOA6 models rely only on the neck lower joint instead of the neck upper joint (or a combination of the two as it probably was in DOA5). As such, if the neck is turned at an extreme angle your going to see a really weird protrusion on the neck.


Another issue here is that it the vertex weighting in DOA6 seems to be a little sloppy. This in combination with the technically higher-poly/more detailed model (plus the games higher targeted resolution) only makes the little mistakes more noticeable.

Edit:

Okay, I'm also noticing another thing. The way DOA5 cuts off the Body from the Head seems to be a little more intelligently thought out.



Notice how in DOA5 the seam is lower in the front and higher in the back while in DOA6 the seam looks more like a clean cut. I've noticed this allows the twist in the neck to look more natural on the DOA5 characters when using the neck lower joint, even though the Head mesh isn't twisting.

It's a little change that seems harmless, which is probably why it was overlooked, but it has a weird impact on the overall look once implemented.
 
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Aug 26, 2018
311
So I had the chance to finally look into this a bit.

This seems to be an issue with vertex weighting. Basically a character has a skeleton with joints, and each joint is weighted to control specific vertexes on a mesh.

To test everything I'm using DOA5&6 model extractions that I found on deviantart.

There are two neck joints on DOA5&6 models: a lower and upper neck joint.

DOA5 Eliot and Hayate on top and DOA6 Jann Lee and Diego on the bottom.

Notice also how the models have a seam on the neck. This is because the head and body are technically separate from each other, having a cut off point around the center of the neck. You can kind of see the seems if you look really closely when you view the models in game. I'm going to call these "Body" and "Head." (As a side note, holy crap DOA 6 models have a ton a bones for their faces)

What interesting/weird about the way these models distribute vertex weighting is that the lower neck joint is weighted in such a way that its twists only on the Body part of the neck mesh. The Upper neck joint twists both the Body and Head part of the neck mesh.



Notice above when I've twisted the neck using the neck lower joint the Head mesh has no deformation. This gives off an natural look because the bottom half of the neck is twisting but the upper part looks exactly the same.

On the bottom when I've twisted the neck using the neck upper joint, both the Body and Head mesh twist together giving a more natural look.


So it seems that the problem here is that in DOA6 models rely only on the neck lower joint instead of the neck upper joint (or a combination of the two as it probably was in DOA5). As such, if the neck is turned at an extreme angle your going to see a really weird protrusion on the neck.


Another issue here is that it the vertex weighting in DOA6 seems to be a little sloppy. This in combination with the technically higher-poly/more detailed model (plus the games higher targeted resolution) only makes the little mistakes more noticeable.

Edit:

Okay, I'm also noticing another thing. The way DOA5 cuts off the Body from the Head seems to be a little more intelligently thought out.



Notice how in DOA5 the seam is lower in the front and higher in the back while in DOA6 the seam looks more like a clean cut. I've noticed this allows the twist in the neck to look more natural on the DOA5 characters when using the neck lower joint, even though the Head mesh isn't twisting.

It's a little change that seems harmless, which is probably why it was overlooked, but it has a weird impact on the overall look once implemented.
Thanks for the write up. The seam cut being the issue makes sense. But, that in turn makes it a harder fix. I thought it was just that someone screwed up the weights. But, maybe they could work something out.

Regardless, someone had to have noticed, right? There are all sorts of rigging issues that have been pointed out. Did they notice but weren't allowed to go back and fix it?
 

SmokedSalmon

Member
Apr 1, 2019
485
Thanks for the write up. The seam cut being the issue makes sense. But, that in turn makes it a harder fix. I thought it was just that someone screwed up the weights. But, maybe they could work something out.

Regardless, someone had to have noticed, right? There are all sorts of rigging issues that have been pointed out. Did they notice but weren't allowed to go back and fix it?
Thanks for reading! I kind of want to elaborate a little more though, but I’m having a hard time trying to figure out how to explain these things.

Technically speaking, the seam cut on the neck shouldn’t even matter. In fact, the “seam cut” issues could be fixed simply be redoing the vertex weighting without even having to touch the neck seam.

The issue here is the way that the vertex weights are assigned is a bit weird. So if we look at this image again:



We have 2 joints for the neck, one at the pit of the neck and one at the skull.

The top pictures have the characters turning their head from the pit-of-the-neck neck joint while the bottom has them turning from the skull neck joint.

Notice in the top images, where we’re turning from the pit of the neck, there is no twisting in the top mesh. Now in the bottom images, when we’re turning from the skull, both the top and the button meshes are twisting together.

So for characters in DOA5 and 6 to have their necks look natural when the turn their heads side to side they need to move from that skull joint. As the models and rigs are set up in both games, moving from the pit-of-the-neck joint is going to look weird. I think what’s going on in DOA6 is there is an animation issue where characters are turning their heads from the wrong joint. They seem to be turning their heads from this pit-of-the-neck joint instead of the skull joint. Simply changing the neck motion from one joint to the other would fix a lot of the issue.

I’m having a lot of trouble trying to find the right words to explain this. Maybe I can be a bit more clear when I think about it a little more.

I think the main take away at the end of the day though should be that none of this is necessarily “harder to fix.” In fact, the more I look at the DOA6 models the more I think a lot of their issues could be “simple fixes.” This neck stuff could be fixed by correcting which joint is controlling the neck or by having overall better vertex weighting. You don’t even have to touch the model and were its “seams” are.

Edit:
I would also be remiss to say if my explanation is 100% the issue that’s going on here. This is only a guess based off observations I’ve made from these models but there could be something extra going on in the game itself. Extracted models from games also don’t always come out perfectly so there are a lot of potential variables here.
 
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Aug 26, 2018
311
I think the main take away at the end of the day though should be that none of this is necessarily “harder to fix.” In fact, the more I look at the DOA6 models the more I think a lot of their issues could be “simple fixes.” This neck stuff could be fixed by correcting which joint is controlling the neck or by having overall better vertex weighting. You don’t even have to touch the model and were its “seams” are.
I see. In university (all those years ago 😬), I did take some 3D classes. But, we never worked with models that were split at joints like that. So, I thought maybe that would take some extra maneuvering. 3D didn't really take for me. But it was probably because my teacher had a thick accent and I couldn't understand what he was saying 70% of the time. lol
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,506

Lol. Having something like this months after release could almost make you believe the game has received several free costumes that need to be unlocked. Do they actually believe the game has enough costumes that this is something anyone gives a shit about months after release

New costumes coming on the 20th

And again no mention of buying costumes individually on ps4 from now on
 

BuBu Jenkins

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,260
Data mines already leaked that the costumes this month are just DOA5 rehashes for a select few characters so they are once again reselling old shit and wonder why the game is dead and no one gives a shit about it.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,506
Data mines already leaked that the costumes this month are just DOA5 rehashes for a select few characters so they are once again reselling old shit and wonder why the game is dead and no one gives a shit about it.
for a brief second they seemed like the kind of costumes they would add for free because god damn the game is in need of some good will but lol of course not.
 

DyByHands

Member
Jul 16, 2018
599
Data mines already leaked that the costumes this month are just DOA5 rehashes for a select few characters so they are once again reselling old shit and wonder why the game is dead and no one gives a shit about it.
The data mine is 4 costumes for 4 characters with some recolors... that cant possibly be part of the pass they are asking 90$ for... lmao. KT gets crazier and crazier.
 
Aug 26, 2018
311
They most likely fear for their reputation in crowding the store with 100+ purchasable costumes like what happened with DOA5. It did not go unnoticed in various gaming outlets.

Street Fighter V doesn't put all of its individual items up on the store, either. If they had, they would've gotten dunked on even more than they already did. But, they made it so that you could purchase individual items in-game and just leaving the bundles up on the store.
 
Oct 27, 2017
986
- Added new costumes: "Summer Breeze Collection".
- Added entry and victory animations for the following characters:
Entry animations: Jann Lee, Ryu Hayabusa, Kokoro, Leifang, Bayman, Mila, Raidou, NiCO.
Victory animations: Ryu Hayabusa, Hayate, Christie, Bayman, Diego, Phase 4.
- Increased maximum ranking level.
- Extended the text chat availability to cover the entirety of LOBBY MATCHES.
- Adjusted game balance.
- Corrected various bugs and issues.
patch notes: https://teamninja-studio.com/doa6/us/images/update/doa6_update_v109_en.pdf

 
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unoillnino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,328
We got new costumes and animations and stuff and there are only 3 new posts in here. Yikes bikes, this game seems like it really fell off in just 6 months.

I haven't had a chance to play since the content dropped, but I like the pictures I've seen. Looking forward to getting in some time this weekend.
 

DyByHands

Member
Jul 16, 2018
599
We got new costumes and animations and stuff and there are only 3 new posts in here. Yikes bikes, this game seems like it really fell off in just 6 months.

I haven't had a chance to play since the content dropped, but I like the pictures I've seen. Looking forward to getting in some time this weekend.
While some still play and enjoy, the game fell off a long time ago. Sadly
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,506
We got new costumes and animations and stuff and there are only 3 new posts in here. Yikes bikes, this game seems like it really fell off in just 6 months.

I haven't had a chance to play since the content dropped, but I like the pictures I've seen. Looking forward to getting in some time this weekend.
I still play but they dropped the ball hard with this game and it needs so much and so many improvementy to not feel like a massive let down.

More copy paste costumes of like 3 designs copied across the cast with some small details to differentiate them isn't exactly worth talking about. Its one bland costume pack after the other and nothing else really happening with the game. The fact that the freaking swimsuit set ended up so insanely boring is still crazy to me.

Oh yeah someone on FSD datamined the new patch:

Momiji system voice files and theme also this

Looks like DoA might be getting some sort of ticket system.
 
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Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,506
Well good that it only took several months for a large portion of the playerbase to be able to buy individual costumes but lmao this is so fucking stupid there are no words.

You can normally individually buy costumes on PC and Xbox, you can individually buy costumes on ps4 in Asia, you can individually buy Mai and Kula costumes in every region but if I want to buy a costume for Tina I need to buy a premium ticket with real money and exchange that ticket for a costume in game. This is game is such a mess


And here I thought they had some more interesting plans with the datamined tickets

Free costumes are a nice addition but they better have a lot of them lined up as well as some major plans for fixes and improvements because man this game is in need of a lot of good will.
 

DyByHands

Member
Jul 16, 2018
599
Those are the leaked costumes from a little while back. Im happy to see the classic Hayabusa costume and its supposedly free, so I will get those.
 

dreamfall

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,544
So $1.99 for 2 Premium tickets - costumes at 2 tickets a piece. The same price as 5, wonder if destructible costumes will be 3 tickets if they’re added later. Same price-ish, huge work around.
 

Avenger54321

Member
Oct 27, 2017
864
Gurnee
Started replaying the game today. I forgot how fun it is to play online. Also really starting to like playing as Honoka as Mila was my main for awhile. Even got the 5 consecutive wins with Honoka. Too bad the player base is not that big.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,506
Gonna guess that we will get a Momiji trailer after the finals

  • 17:30 to 20:00 – e-Sports X: Dead or Alive 6World Championship: “The Fatal Match in Japan”
 

unoillnino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,328
I'd sure like to see Kasumi's outfits for Early Purchase and Digital Deluxe be purchasable with tickets. Having the two outfits locked out for me as an owner of a physical copy is annoying.

Really looking forward to seeing who the next character is. I know everybody says Momiji and I'd be all for that as I love her from DOA5LR, but part of me is a bit interested to see if they'd throw one more SNK character into the mix for the hell of it. Gender-swapped Terry Bogard would be interesting.