As a story telling medium they're not taken seriously. For very good reason.
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Death Stranding - Review Thread (see staff post for discussion guidelines)
- Thread starter vestan
- Start date
Yeah I can see that. But who the fuck cares whether or not the intelligentsia thinks a video game story should "be taken seriously"? Enjoy things on your own and fuck caring what literary or film scholars might think of video games. lol
Or you can care about artistic merit and literary value, as well as enjoying things on their own merit. The fact remains that most game text fails formally, aesthetically, intertextually, structurally, and aspirationally. While there are phenomonal works out there, the fact the people praise this is have good writing really shows how far this medium needs to go.
20+ hours in. Just started episode 4.
Easy 9/10.
Yes, combat and stealth are shallow.
But that's okay, the game is not about that. For me, the game is about watching this hostile and barren world come alive and tamed by the actions of other players and myself. Roads, shelters, generators all these things that make your life so much easier, and then you realize people are using your stuff and you're making things easier for them.
I've spent the last 14 hours doing side quests and building roads. And thanks to the side quests you unlock more things that make your life easier. And the game feels great to play too, nothing I wrote above would matter if that wasn't the case.
I can see people not liking the game. But it's so much more than a walking simulator or fetch quest: the game.
Also, going into this game expecting deep combat or action in the regular sense is a mistake, I think.
Easy 9/10.
Yes, combat and stealth are shallow.
But that's okay, the game is not about that. For me, the game is about watching this hostile and barren world come alive and tamed by the actions of other players and myself. Roads, shelters, generators all these things that make your life so much easier, and then you realize people are using your stuff and you're making things easier for them.
I've spent the last 14 hours doing side quests and building roads. And thanks to the side quests you unlock more things that make your life easier. And the game feels great to play too, nothing I wrote above would matter if that wasn't the case.
I can see people not liking the game. But it's so much more than a walking simulator or fetch quest: the game.
Also, going into this game expecting deep combat or action in the regular sense is a mistake, I think.
I think games are currently on par with mainstream movies when it comes to story telling.
Ive watched plenty of pop corn hits with legitimately less engaging stories than in some games.
They're not that far behind anymore.
You're watching the wrong movies. Marvel and Pikachu aren't what we're talking about.
You know someone doesn't really have a point worth considering when they resort to petty condescension. He said mainstream, that certainly includes things such as Marvel and Pikachu, or did you not read what he said and instead went right for the cheap shot?
Even by those standards no way in hell would I rank the majority of video games sotry telling above cinema.
Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I haven't seen people raving about the writing in Death Stranding. It's very sloppy in many respects and most people I see talk about it have acknowledged that.
I don't think anyone said the majority of video games are better than cinema, because that's preposterous and obviously not true by a long slot, but there's definitely a select few of the very best that are. I don't know why everyone has such a hard time comprehending what the guy even originally said, which was
Does that sound like the words of someone who ranks the majority of video game stories above cinema? You tell me.
You cut out more than half his quote to make this point. Don't be disingenuous. Heres what they said:
That certainly sounds like they think its the majority to me. There was absolutely no qualification to that statement by that poster. It was a blanket "games are currently on par with mainstream movies when it comes to story telling".
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It really is a magical experience, it better be rewarded with sales or I lose all faith in the gaming community.
Some folks just can't help but be insufferable about, ugh, video game writing
It's sloppy and ridiculous in places FOR SURE. But I think the "it doesn't make sense" crowd are just being dense as hell. I would absolutely love to see Kojima's story ideas and writing filtered through a writing team. His ideas and the philosophy behind it is almost always very compelling, it's just usually not written in a naturalistic manner.
Tim Rogers and Heather Alexandra from Kotaku have a pretty good conversation about the story and writing in general in the spoiler video.
I'm at the final chapters right now, and I think that people that gave the game a 10 were out of their minds
I'm playing this game daily. I love this game. I think about it when I'm not playing it.
But goddamn, this game has many, many flaws. And storywise the game jumped the shark at the final chapters. It went places. I'm having a harder time trying to understand all of Kojima's bullshit being thrown at me on these codec calls than I have when taking classes at college.
Dude has some cool ideas, but the writting is so bad sometimes ... And the amount of exposition is just baffling
"The BTs are in a Beach within a Beach connected by some other person's Beach"
It gets ridiculous in a way that I have never seen before even in the MGS series
I'm playing this game daily. I love this game. I think about it when I'm not playing it.
But goddamn, this game has many, many flaws. And storywise the game jumped the shark at the final chapters. It went places. I'm having a harder time trying to understand all of Kojima's bullshit being thrown at me on these codec calls than I have when taking classes at college.
Dude has some cool ideas, but the writting is so bad sometimes ... And the amount of exposition is just baffling
"The BTs are in a Beach within a Beach connected by some other person's Beach"
It gets ridiculous in a way that I have never seen before even in the MGS series
As a hardcore Metal Gear Solid fan, and general Hideo Kojima stan...
Corny writing and lengthy exposition are just part of Kojima's bizarre charm.
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Is it because they're good scores and you don't like the game or is it because they're lower than what you expected?
Reading through some of these reviews and I can't help but feel some of them are completely missing the point.
So many of the criticisms can be applied to BOTW but that gets a free pass, I love both by the way. The fun is in the journey and creatively overcoming problems, with BOTW you have more room to be creative but the strand system makes up for that.
Probably my GOTY so far ahead of Sekiro and RE2 Remake.
So many of the criticisms can be applied to BOTW but that gets a free pass, I love both by the way. The fun is in the journey and creatively overcoming problems, with BOTW you have more room to be creative but the strand system makes up for that.
Probably my GOTY so far ahead of Sekiro and RE2 Remake.
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Man with this, Star Wars fallen order and control, single player games owning this year. Sure all 3 will be my top 3 of the year just dunno what order yet.
The original argument was whether game stories are taken seriously or not. I don't see much worth in comparing them to movies that are equally as bad as proof that game stories are worthwhile.
I also find it depressing that telling stories with depth is being scoffed at as "scholarly and pretentious". Sounds like a redneck Republican argument.
It didn't get a "free pass", they merely liked it more or didn't find the same issues as grating in BotW as they did in Death Stranding. Not to mention, Death Stranding is still reviewing well and is going to win some GotY awards so I don't see the need to try and knock down another game to prop up this one. Honestly, I find the defensive over some just not being fond of this game to be more baffling than anything else
That's Game Rant. Its brother, Screen Rant gave Death Stranding 5/5. Interesting scores from both sites!
I just don't get the super negative reviews "irredeemable piece of garbage".
I almost skipped the game because of them, unfortunately many people (that may love the game) will overlook DS because of them.
It's a bit unconventional in some aspects, other aspects perhaps weren't all that great, and so the game is naturally not going to be everyone's cup of tea. Hell, even the highest rated and most awarded games of all time aren't everyone's cup of tea, like The Last of Us or The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Overall, the game still got good reviews. Mid 80's is by no means a bad score. It's not like it got dumpster fire reviews
IMO the medium of games storytelling is held back by the need for gameplay.
Due to the nature of the medium, most stories have sections that are essentially filler material, even if it's well disguised, and that holds it back. Using the Last of Us as an example, since it's considered one of the better written stories in games, there's the section where you find Bill, only to then being told you have to go find a vehicle, only to then find the battery stolen so you have to go find that.
Additionally there's the case of ludonarrative dissonance, where there's a dichotomy between what's portrayed in the cutscenes and what's in the gameplay.
You can also add in the the dialogue in gaming is, on average, far poorer than even your average mainstream movie.
I would say some of the best stories in games edge out your average mainstream movie, but gaming in general isn't even close to mainstream movies, much less the better movies out there.
This sentence actually reminds me of a complaint from RDR2. Namely, one of the major point of the game is to get a lot of money to leave, yet your character is practically swimming in money after a few missions. So it's weird hearing about how your gang is always broke, and you have money to groom yourself everyday, buy yourself the best. gun possible, get specific bullets for said gun, and give you money to every beggar within a ten mile radius and still have enough to give half to the gang money jar and the game keeps telling you that you're broke.
Granted, it can be justified by the gang leader being driven insane among other things so it was never about the money, but I remember this being something that took a lot of the realism out of the game for some people. That and even if the gang leader was going insane, it's weird that no one else in your circle questions where you're getting all this money.
I also think game stories benefit more from copying TV series than movies, since movies run on a much stricter time frame and much get to the point sooner, compared to a TV series that can do slow buildup and benefit from 'filler'.
I'm really enjoying my time with Death Stranding but don't understand how people can't understand why it got some of the reviews it got. The MULE encounters are bad in both combat and stealth, the BT encounters are boring, the boss fights just consist of running around and throwing grenades at big BTs, and there's an absurd amount of repetitive cutscenes every time you go to a private room or recycle goods or deliver a package. I understand loving that the game is so focused on the traversal and social mechanics, and I enjoy that too, but all this other stuff is still in the game and I'm forced to interact with it and it brings the whole package down.
As a hardcore Metal Gear Solid fan, and general Hideo Kojima stan...
Corny writing and lengthy exposition are just part of Kojima's bizarre charm.
Quoting myself:
"It gets ridiculous in a way that I have never seen before even in the MGS series"
Ive played most MGS games, I loved MGS 4 ... I know about Kojima.
But this right here is too much for me. It crossed the line between charming to outright bad.
Haha, chill, it was an example that I made up
Come on, you can see how that looked like a spoiler surely? But thanks for clarifying.
What would that line even spoil? It'd be a shocking reveal on par with (Spaceballs spoiler warning!) "I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."
I guess, I just don't want to know ANYTHING about how it pans out. I've read spoilers that were like that before for plenty of media that led me to piece together what actually happens ahead of time and ruined the payoff.
I apologize. Since I havent put it in spoilers, I thought that it would be obvious. My mistake
Now that I have read the previous pages of the thread, Im kinda embarassed by people bashing the reviews
I love the game, but having played it up to the end, this is a 7.5-8.0 game. Nothing more, but maybe even less depending on how much you enjoy the mechanics.
As someone who really enjoyed the mechanics, world and story for the most part, it really outstay its welcome by 1/3 of its size.
As I said, the story also goes to ridiculous places. It certainly gets more active during the endgame, but its quality gets worse, imho. Way worse.
What Im trying to say is: this should not get 10's, at all. People are saying that they will dismiss publications giving the game low scores, but I would also dismiss publications giving it a 10, honestly.
And even as someone who loves the game, and likes Kojima games in general, the criticism should be welcomed by people, in order to have better games from Kojipro in the future.
If anything, they should be even more harsh, since Kojima is so up in his own ass that he he thinks that the criticism is due to reviewers "not getting it".
And no, the game has many glarring flaws
It's a 10/10 game for me, personally, so far. No game is perfect, it's about individual experience. 10/10 doesn't mean "perfect" otherwise no game would ever achieve it. It's a personal thing, 10s = this is one of the best experiences I've had.
This game has flaws, but it also has some incredible highs and has a lot of depth and interlinking parts. The multiplayer design is wonderful and makes this open world feel more alive that many populated with actual players. It elevates beyond the sum of its parts, and could possibly be my GOTG.
And, honestly, I see just as much bashing of the game itself as I do of the reviews. As long as people aren't being overtly hostile or personal, opinion here is fine. I do think some of the reviews are a little ridiculous, and that's okay.
Reviewers should review games according to their feelings, I agree. But they should also point noticeable flaws that they experience during the game.
Chrono Cross is a 10/10 to me, but I can point many flaws in it.
In the case of Death Stranding, pointing flaws would be even more important since this is an experience different from many others out there. If people are going to be bothered by these flaws or not, that's on them, but it should be part of the reviewers obligation to point them out to potential buyers.
Yet you proceed to do exactly that, I sometimes wonder if people read what they type.
A thing to note is that a lot of flaws ARE subjective even if YOU think they are glaring.
There is no objective truth for the vast majority of this.
Star Wars turned out better than this so I ultimately won in the end. Also, here is my review of the game:
It's fun delivering stuff as Daryl Dixon because of the asylum for the feeling, but the story is probably some of the dumbest nonsense you'll find in a game. Laughably bad. You'll never make a good movie, Kojima. Add to the OP.
It's fun delivering stuff as Daryl Dixon because of the asylum for the feeling, but the story is probably some of the dumbest nonsense you'll find in a game. Laughably bad. You'll never make a good movie, Kojima. Add to the OP.
How so?
I believe everything is subjective if you look deep enough. But a review should be aiming for the general public, so they should at least warn people about some stuff
When you reach the endgame, tell me if having to watch so many unnecessary cutscenes, like putting the delivered stuff on the treadmill, watching Bridget thanking you after every recicled item, watching a 10+ second anymation everytime you get to a BTs area, if thats not bad a design choice.
Sure, some of the animations are a little obnoxious over time... but I bet you there is someone out there who likes them, or rat least many people who are nowhere near as sensitive to them as others (I agree with you on this point personally, but I have seen people in the OT discussing this saying they don't mind it). You cannot possibly state these things are a given that reviewers HAVE to mention them.
Also, reviews can't possibly cover everything.
This part is exactly the same as the people you're talking about but on the other side.