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Dan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,950
Not sure why you're continually trying to antagonize that person with your drive-by posts. Chill.

I'm not trying to antagonise. The poster in question plus his approach to actually debating in this thread on this subject has clearly been called out by a number of people here.

The fact he thinks people who come from countries who actually did something about gun control years ago should not have any opinion on this subject (where in fact they're likely the most qualified people to contribute) is beyond laughable.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
So someone else tell me again why the idea of limiting lethal ammunition outside of designated hunting zones doesn't work?
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
User was warned for this post: Policing the thread. Everyone is allowed a voice, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
So someone else tell me again why the idea of limiting lethal ammunition outside of designated hunting zones doesn't work?

I'll look into it. You should also look into it. Hunting zones being the only place for lethal ammo is also a mistake. Many rural places need access to lethal ammo. It's a totally different ball game than cities.

I'm not trying to antagonise. The poster in question plus his approach to actually debating in this thread on this subject has clearly been called out by a number of people here.

The fact he thinks people who come from countries who actually did something about gun control years ago should not have any opinion on this subject (where in fact they're likely the most qualified people to contribute) is beyond laughable.

I'm not sure how it's laughable. What have non-American's offered this debate? They are also among the least qualified people to talk about this because their countries have instituted bans, which we have established will not happen in America. Either they call Americans stupid or they call for bans. The first one is insulting, the second one is not going to happen. So why should non-American's be able to enter this debate? This is one of those situations where it's best they zip their mouths. They have as much clout as white people telling black people how to feel about police brutality. Having an opinion is fine. But sometimes your perspective is completely foreign and in many ways detrimental to discussion.
 
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Tickling

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
961
The problem you have is you can only legislate from now going forward there isn't a mission of getting the guns back which are already out there. In my mind they should make a lot more hoops to go through to get a gun. If you are a responsible gun owner you won't mind having to go through the extra hoops. Just stopping selling them is a ludicrous situation as there are just so many out there already.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
I'll look into it. You should also look into it. Hunting zones being the only place for lethal ammo is also a mistake. Many rural places need access to lethal ammo. It's a totally different ball game than cities.

Why rural areas specifically? If its to ward off animals there should be a procedure. Non- lethal pellets/tranqs and call a state animal control center for large issues like wolves/cougars/bears which they would handle anyway. If its for putting down an animal because you live on a farm I would think a lethal tranq would be more human regardless. Further I would think a farm could get designated as a hunting zone if they needed it.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
It really bothers me we are being talked down to by countries where it is illegal for a woman to not only own a firearm for self defense but also pepper spray, knives, or any other method. It seems,"take it and scream" is there only form of self defense. That, and running. I'm sorry but that's not good enough, non-American's. The problem you don't understand is that we are coming an idea that self preservation, hence, self defense, is a human right like water or the Internet. You. Do. Not. Understand. This. In your countries, the above items are also banned. Let's just keep banning shit, amirite? Being talk to by Australia, who banned small tits in porn. Whose entire country ethos is banning it if they don't like it? It completely goes against American principles of Liberty and that's what you. don't. get. To us, taking away weapons for self defense from the populace that is not the police is denying people their own God given right of self preservation and you will never sell people on it.


I can guarantee any anti-gun American would not be for banning other weapons. But the non-American's?

I think you are using faulty logic, but I'll play. It is a proven fact the best form of self-defence is to run away. Carrying a weapon is far more likely to get yourself killed than it is anyone else. Slate Article on why owning a gun is far more likely to harm you than protect you. The problem carrying a weapon is you escalate the situation. Most criminals who carry a weapon carry it for show. They would rather scare you than actually hurt you. If you pull out a gun or a knife this isn't fear anymore. This kicks in their desire for self preservation and they are now the ones of the defensive, the difference being they've already got the weapon out. Why do you think hostage negotiators are a thing? You don't point a gun at some one with a gun pointed at you and ask them to drop theirs.

A great article on the subject in Scientific America.


But what does the research say? By far the most famous series of studies on this issue were conducted in the late 1980s and 1990s by Arthur Kellermann, now dean of the F. Edward Hébert School of Medicine at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, and his colleagues. In one, published in 1993 in the New England Journal of Medicine and funded by the CDC, he and his colleagues identified 444 people who had been killed between 1987 and 1992 at home in three U.S. regions—Shelby County, Tennessee, King County, Washington State, and Cuyahoga County, Ohio—and then collected details about them and their deaths from local police, medical examiners and people who had been close to the victims. They found that a gun in the home was associated with a nearly threefold increase in the odds that someone would be killed at home by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

My reason for calling you out on a faulty comparison is that you compared a ban of guns (the amount of people who died in the us via gun crime in 2015 being 36000 people), to a ban on pornography in Australia. The comparison doesn't work.

Considering the UK is oldest democracy in the world I'd advise you to reconsider your opinion on liberty only being loved by the US. In the UK you have every right to defend yourself. If you happen to see a gun on the ground as a group of men beat you, you have every right to shoot them all. However if you go walking around with a gun you are the one at responsible. Guns make people stupid in the same reason alcohol makes people think they are better driver. You get cocky and you put yourself in situations where using a gun is the only option. That's why banning the carrying of guns works. Also we only have an ban-lite on guns. People can apply for a certificate of ownership of a very specific type of weapon. Mostly this is for farmers and game wardens. The selling of guns to the public was banned as well as most forms. Just something I'd think you'd appreciate.

Everyone has a god given right to defend themselves, but at some point you've got to draw a line. Guns are man made and they don't factor into it. Also they are a constitutional right, not a god given one. The constitution has been changed many times before and the original didn't even include the second amendment. That was only added in response to the war of 1812. Leading me on to your post.


I made this post and no one has yet to rebut it. It isn't a debate. It's non-Americans (literally the least important people in this "debate"). I will be quoting it for the last damn time. "Give something to debate with." I want to throw my phone into the toilet.

I'll be going through this post now. I disagree with the first paragraph already. As I've already said it's not a god given right. The constitution was made with the idea of being a living document. The founding father knew it would change over time so designed it to be thus. Rights can be given and taken away. This is one I think the rest of the world has done pretty well without, maybe the US should give it a go. As to the historical basis, so were the Confederate statues, hell so was slavery, so were jim crow laws. They still got taken away. Why not this as well. As to anti-gun laws hurting minorities due to racial basis as per your article link and your own point about corruption.. You've really pointed out the problem already. It's like people being mad at illegal immigrants taking jobs, because businesses pay them less. That shit is illegal. If the law was properly enforced then you wouldn't have this problem. In this case the argument should really be about how LA country sheriff office can be allowed to be so corrupt. Not gun laws.

As to your second paragraph...Are you sure your not saying people should use guns against cops? Because it sounds an awful like your saying the reason we should keep guns is because cops. I see no reason why after a period of time the police would carry guns anymore. Similar to the way other countries already handle it, your average officer won't carry a gun, at best a taser and a baton. It can't happen immediately, but then neither would the ban either. A transitional period as per Australia and the UK would be needed. Once again if you have a problem with police authority have a gun won't protect you. If anything it makes you a bigger target. Why aren't you protesting and writing letters. Why buy a gun? Is it just to trick yourself into feeling more secure, because if so see what I said earlier about cockiness.

Your 2nd point. That was more than 200 years ago. And as I've already said, you didn't even have this right till about 60+ years later. Look at Poland for crying out loud. They weren't even a country in their own right 100 years ago and they have gun control. Also some of this seems downright naive. The reason politicians have body guards who are armed, is because there have been assassination attempts in the past. Granted in the US the majority of them were all gun based. Politicians in important position of government need to be kept safe because their removal would paralyses a country. Anti-gun lobbiest have armed body guards from the same reason minesweepers ware a flack jacket. In a place surrounded by the thing you are trying to solve, you take every precaution. It would sound just dumb if I asked the same question about pro-gun lobbyists.

As to your 3rd point about how gun crime is falling you're right. It looks like from that article it is falling. I still thin 35000 is far too much, but based on the article it is falling. However that might not be a good thing. Gun control laws as limited as they are only really came into effect during this time period. So gun ownership doesn't actually mean less crime, but then neither does gun control. I'd like to see some more reasons as to why this fell before I pass judgement, but i'm still inclined to say it's far too high as it is. From the article you linked too.

While firearm violence accounted for about 70 percent of all homicides between 1993 and 2011, guns were used in less than 10 percent of all non-fatal violent crimes...

Firearms sellers can thank the gun-control legislation lobbies for much of this business windfall. Marked demand increases have been witnessed over the past five years thanks to the 2008 and 2012 elections of U.S. history's most successful, if unintentional, gun salesman as president. The firearms market got a huge added boost after the tragic shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newton, Connecticut activated a renewed legislative frenzy.
.

This implies that one of the reasons for increased gun ownership was fear over a democratic president and the majority of Americans murdered were still murdered by people using guns. No matter how you tie it, this still doesn't look good. I'm not going to tackle your last points because they can only apply to you. I can't tell you a black trans women how to respond on gun control. I can only debate with you. When I get some more time I will look through the rest of the links you've brought up. I hope this makes you feel like you are being engaged. It can just feel like an echo chamber sometimes.
 

Keyboard

Guest
Not sure how it's laughable. What have non-American's offered this debate? They are also among the least qualified people to talk about this because their countries have instituted bans, which we have established will not happen in America. Either they call Americans stupid or they call for bans. The first one is insulting, the second one is not going to happen. So why should non-American's be able to enter this debate? This is one of those situations where it's best they zip their mouths. They have as much clout as white people telling black people how to feel about police brutality. Having an opinion is fine. But sometimes your perspective is completely foreign and in many ways detrimental to discussion.
1. Why do you assume everyone who disagrees with your points is non-American?

2. Why do you keep on shutting down discussion when you haven't articulated your points with scientific data? Your responses are not productive to healthy discussion.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
"The USA political system is broken."

"We need to ban guns."

You can't have both of these. Venuzuela is another country that banned guns. Their populace could not have an uprising due to lack of access to firearms. Instead they became fodder and have no recourse. But let's trust the American government (which you admit is corrupt!).

It's asinine.

If you bothered to read my lengthy original post, you'll know why suggesting a nation that won its own rebellion would take issue with this. Put two and two together.

I've just read through and responded to each point of your length post and I hope you get the chance to respond in kind to me quite lengthy post ( :) ).

You keep using faulty logic. Venezuela banned guns and now they can't overthrow their government. The same will happen if the US does it.

That doesn't make any sense because they aren't comparable. Venezuela didn't just become a socialist dictatorship overnight with the banning of guns. There was a revolution that installed a socialist government that due to oppressive rules and corruption allowed for a dictatorship to take control of the country. I don't think it's particularly likely that the same will happen to the US.

You can ban guns and fix your political system, without revolutions or turning into a dictatorship. It takes time an effort, but thousands of people each year will be alive because of it. I'm also getting sick of this idea that having a gun is the only way to make sure criminals don't kill you. This is just life arguing religion. If you don't believe in god people have no reason to be moral argument change to. If you don't carry a gun there is no way people won't attack you.

Neither work because we have a thing called society and to be a member of it, you have to not be a dick.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
So why is it a choice between ban guns and don't ban guns? No understanding why these are the only two positions you can have.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
1. Why do you assume everyone who disagrees with your points is non-American?

2. Why do you keep on shutting down discussion when you haven't articulated your points with scientific data? Your responses are not productive to healthy discussion.

1. I'm not. But all of them have proved to be non American.

2. I haven't shut down discussion and the people I've argued with have not posted scientific evidence either. I have also provided many links in this thread if you have bothered to read it.

So why is it a choice between ban guns and don't ban guns? No understanding why these are the only two positions you can have.

It isn't and that's why it's hard to take them seriously.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
Well, this thread had a pretty good start at least.

People get invested in debates like this. I just spent 40 mins writing a response to someone in this thread. On a subject like this and the passions that get raised via debates anyway, it's not impossible to see how people can get emotional.

To anyone feeling upset or annoyed, go take a break. Remember this is just the internet. If you really want to you can pick this up tomorrow.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
KarneeKarnay I will respond to your posts when I go back to sleep. I highly suggest you read them again though. You are being too literal. In short, I never said Venuzuela is a 1:1 to America, but it is a good analogue. The main point of my argument wasn't even Venuzuela. It was the fact that arguing a country's government is corrupt and saying guns need to be banned literally makes no sense. Especially within the context of a country that won a rebellion. It completely ignores historical context. And if you truly think that Americans are past our rebellion roots and that they have no bearing on modern American ideals of Liberty and freedom, then you might have a problem. I will deconstruct your post later.

You should also read the articles I posted. You only rebutted one and that was because you disagreed with it.
 

Keyboard

Guest
You should also read the articles I posted. You only rebutted one and that was because you disagreed with it.
Can you paraphrase? Since you brought on the argument, you must prove. Not the other way around.

No one is going to sift through a bunch of links without you highlighting points what you like.

You can also post a video, too.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Florida transwoman still in process to transition. Guns are a necessity for many deals of life and in many pockets in the US, where armed police still take a long while, where patrols are limited, and where crazy people with a hardon for "the day of the rope" threaten what little peace and security every minority group has.

It's no secret that these crazies tend to be heavily armed, and they also tend to be riled up by politics and their poor choice of media. The gist of my experience with guns are mostly handguns, some long rifles, including the ar-15 platform. Up to last year, I owned a Beretta 92fs, that was bought to protect myself in areas I was uncertain of, or certain were dangerous.

The majority of deaths are by handguns. They are relatively easy to conceal, ammunition and the gun itself are cheap abd plentiful. In recent years though, semiauto rifles have been used beyond hunting, in vicious crimes.

My thoughts on the matter can be summed up as somewhere in the middle. A better system to keep track of guns owned by whom, a system to quickly and easily report losses or theft, and regulation of rifles, linked to a hunting license. Semiauto rifles play a valuable part in hunting for small game and medium sized game both. Deer need to be culled or they will need to uncontrollable numbers and push into roads, often killing people who drive into them. Boar cause damage to crops, fenceline and smaller livestock, and are aggressive and deadly. Being able to follow up a shot with another ensures that the animals do not suffer needlessly, and ensures that they don't escape to continue doing what they do.

Handguns, conversely, are the great equalizer. Because police cannot be relied upon to protect and serve as a cohesive whole, and because people with ill will exist, people still need to be able to protect themselves.

This brings other problems with our. Parents or children killed by children who play with it like a toy, because the parent did not lock it up enough, or was concealed carryibg and not losing attention enough, all are mostly preventable. Regulation of training, local databases for a registry only accessible by warrant by federal authorities, or consistently checked by police to ensure that the gun is in working order and secured... Securely, would be the best bet.

More generally, moving everything to computers and having a consistent data base for background checks would reduce waoting periods for things while also making it more consistent in denying people who should not have guns. Doing it in localities would provide extra steps for the federal government to gain access without significantly reducing efficacy.

The most pressing thing is that politicians don't bother learning about guns on one side, and on the other, don't bother learning about ways to adequately tamp down on gun deaths. Where yes, I am of the opinion that banning guns outside of designated hunting zones would work in practice and on paper, i also think that is politically impossible.

The causes of purposeful gun violence stem from abuse, myriad mental conditions, and survival. Proper economic development and a strong safety net, lead free water, and universal Healthcare with the ability to get people consistently treated whether they think they need it or not (when it is extreme) could do more to combat gun violence than attempting to ban guns at this moment every will without significant changes to our political makeup.

Edit: phone is a terrible way to post this.
 

Keyboard

Guest
I am not going to repost my post for the third time. Find it yourself.
I found it, but your argument is subjective thinking without any data and a lot of projecting with a link dump at the end.

Again, can you prove your points with graphs?

Video I posted earlier makes a very convincing argument.
 
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Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
To the people talking about a total gun ban.

That would involve sending militarized police basically door to door and would lead to THOUSANDS of police shootouts.

My starting changes would be simple:

Any gun owner must complete a safety course and have some sort of storage safe.

If anyone uses your gun (even if stolen unless reported before the act happens) you are 100% considered an accomplice. Your kid shoots someone? Your ass is behind bars, your fault for letting little Jimmy, your unstable cousin, whoever the fuck get your gun it's as if you pulled the trigger.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
KarneeKarnay I will respond to your posts when I go back to sleep. I highly suggest you read them again though. You are being too literal. In short, I never said Venuzuela is a 1:1 to America, but it is a good analogue. The main point of my argument wasn't even Venuzuela. It was the fact that arguing a country's government is corrupt and saying guns need to be banned literally makes no sense. Especially within the context of a country that won a rebellion. It completely ignores historical context. And if you truly think that Americans are past our rebellion roots and that they have no bearing on modern American ideals of Liberty and freedom, then you might have a problem. I will deconstruct your post later.

You should also read the articles I posted. You only rebutted one and that was because you disagreed with it.

That's cool. We can pick this up tomorrow.

To a degree every government has some form of corruption. I just think the corruption that was allowed to grow due to the political upheaval of a socialist revolution of a country, is not all that comparable to the current premier power on the world stage. You can argue corruption and still want a ban in guns. Corruption does not equal oppression. It can lead to it, but in theory in truth, if you think corruption is bad in the US, that a dictatorship is imminent, you should be campaigning against that not anti-gun laws. If you are always afraid the government may one day become corrupt, then nothing will ever change. It will just lead to more fear and death. If you don't want anti-gun laws then perhaps tackling the aspects of the US political system that encourage and allow for corruption should be the main concern not the laws limiting guns.

I did use two articles in your post granted I only linked one of them.

- LA Weekly : Sheriff Lee Baca and the Gun-Gift Connection
- Forbes : Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet


I hope we can somehow come to an agreement. I would remind you that the England won freedom from the roman empire almost 2000 years ago and we're still working on banning knives, so not everyone is perfect.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
I found it, but your argument is subjective thinking without any data and a lot of projecting with a link dump at the end.

Again, can you prove your points with graphs?

Graphs on what? What scientific data do you even want? I linked to mutiple sources in my post including an Obama DoJ study. The "objective" data you want will be dismissed because of the CDC/NRA stuff.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,988
Houston
Not watching a 40 minute video from someone who, like everyone else, probably has an agenda of some sort to push.

.
good arguments. brilliant debate. The video is from National Geographic from their series called Underworld Inc. They cover things like illegal moonshine, human trafficking, and as the link I provided is about illegal guns. But it doesn't fit your agenda to learn things so why bother right?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I'm sorry, but if we get to the point where the military sides with a dictatorial president(laughable idea in itself), I don't care how many guns you have you don't stand a chance against drones, tanks, and the fully armed military. This isn't the 18th century. The government isn't afraid of you with your guns.
 

Keyboard

Guest
There are links in the articles to the surveys and data sources.
There are better ways of showing a point.

Here, let me try as an example. I previously posted a video that no one has commented or referred.

Someone mentioned earlier how stricter gun laws don't work.

They only don't work when they're not enacted nationally. Many gun buyers go to states with looser gun laws to buy them or loopholes.

State lines don't stop guns

It's important to remember here that Chicago is very close to two states that have relatively weak gun laws: Wisconsin and Indiana. So while it's easy to pick on Chicago (or any other high-crime city) for its ugly statistics, says one expert, taking bordering states into account weakens this gun-advocacy talking point.

"It's not a scientific study. It's an anecdote," said Philip Cook, a professor of public policy studies at Duke University. "They might have pointed to Washington, D.C., back in the days when D.C. banned handguns and yet had high gun-violence rates. Those bans are only at best partially effective, because the borders are permeable."
Source: https://www.npr.org/2017/10/05/555580598/fact-check-is-chicago-proof-that-gun-laws-don-t-work

aCyonHT.png


Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/
 

AYF 001

Member
Oct 28, 2017
828
I'm sorry, but if we get to the point where the military sides with a dictatorial president(laughable idea in itself), I don't care how many guns you have you don't stand a chance against drones, tanks, and the fully armed military. This isn't the 18th century. The government isn't afraid of you with your guns.
I think the issue people are concerned with in the current political climate is "What if the people with most of the guns are the ones who support the dictator?" You don't need the military as much when average joe will do the dirty work for you.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
There are better ways of showing a point.

Here, let me try as an example. I previously posted a video that no one has commented or referred.

Someone mentioned earlier how stricter gun laws don't work.

They only don't work when they're not enacted nationally. Many gun buyers go to states with looser gun laws to buy them or loopholes.


Source: https://www.npr.org/2017/10/05/555580598/fact-check-is-chicago-proof-that-gun-laws-don-t-work

aCyonHT.png


Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/

I agree. I commented earlier on this that gun control needed to be on a federal level. That it simply doesn't work on a state level and that any gun control law needs to be passed across the whole country. Good to know someone else is on the same wavelength.

That said, while there is no rule for it, I think more people are ok just posting to the articles as evidence. Graphs are always appreciated, but we've all got lives we've got to lead.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I think the issue people are concerned with in the current political climate is "What if the people with most of the guns are the ones who support the dictator?" You don't need the military as much when average joe will do the dirty work for you.

I'm having trouble parsing the logic here. You're saying that if we get to the point where we have a dictator, the military would do nothing, and average joes would be allowed to kill other people with impunity with their guns? And that if the people on the opposing side had guns and killed average joes that had guns they'd be better off and not, say, imprisoned or killed? This is a fantasy scenario, you realize that, right?
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,988
Houston
There are better ways of showing a point.

Here, let me try as an example. I previously posted a video that no one has commented or referred.

Someone mentioned earlier how stricter gun laws don't work.

They only don't work when they're not enacted nationally. Many gun buyers go to states with looser gun laws to buy them or loopholes.


Source: https://www.npr.org/2017/10/05/555580598/fact-check-is-chicago-proof-that-gun-laws-don-t-work

aCyonHT.png


Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/
myself and others have brought this up several times over the course of the thread.


Himuro sorry if this is incorrect but all I've seen you do is be contrary to others posts, is there any gun control legislation you support? Cause I sure haven't seen it. You're arguments generally come across as nothing can be do, oh well.
 

BankaiZaraki

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
632
The way America is shaped and how us civilians view ownership, there will never be a ban on all guns. I do think certain types of guns should be banned. Theres no reason a weapon that can hold 30 rounds needs to be in the hands of civilians. Limit the type of ammo, magazine cartridges things like that.
 

AYF 001

Member
Oct 28, 2017
828
I'm having trouble parsing the logic here. You're saying that if we get to the point where we have a dictator, the millitary would do nothing, and average joe's would be allowed to kill other people with impunity with their guns? And that if the people on the opposing side had guns and killed average joe's that had guns they'd be better off and not, say, imprisoned or killed? This is a fantasy scenario, you realize that, right?
Full disclosure: I've gone shooting before and enjoy firearm ownership, but I believe it's the unregulated household possesion that leads to problems.

Back on topic: It wasn't a fantasy when armed Nazi's were marching through the streets not too long ago, and people were still wondering if punching them is bad after they began plowing and shooting into crowds. The same people who called Obama a tyrant now think Trump is the second coming of White Jesus, and they've made it pretty clear they're looking for a fight with anyone who opposes him.

We already had one Civil War, and the biggest contribution personal firearms had to that conflict was a confederate assassinating the president after it was over. So I'm a bit skeptical that stockpiling even more guns will somehow tip the scales in favor of whoever isn't seeking genocide.
 

Deleted member 2625

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
I agree that there never will be a comprehensive ban, but I've never read a particularly good argument why the US can't simply emulate what Canada has done. Which is not perfect but obviously much better. The countries are so, so similar.

- licensing and regulation. there needs to be an alternative to the NRA who leans on the "well regulated militia" part of 2A. If you're gonna go hard on why you get to have a gun you have to take the whole fucking amendment and not conveniently leave off that bit. And that's an Originalist stance too.

- ban handguns. use at target range or not at all. they don't make you safer. or heavily restrict them. I actually don't think they are outright banned here, but there's barrel length limits and ammo limits as i recall.

- keep long guns. no one complains about not being able to hunt or sport shoot in Canada really. self defense? sure, if you want to do the proper training. it's hard. requires upkeep. it should be. meanwhile you will have better luck with stun guns or pepper spray or basically anything that isn't gunpowder based, partially for your own safety, and not in small part because of the handgun ban which makes life safer everywhere.
 

bgbball31

Member
Oct 25, 2017
591
I don't know the policy on just linking an article in the thread and leaving. I don't mean it as a drive-by, but I don't think my thoughts on gun control (outside of SOMETHING needs to be done) are well realized enough to add much. That said, here is the article from the New York Times on the obvious problem facing the US, and why it isn't some of the other things being bandied about.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,469
Against my better judgment, I'm going to make a couple of posts in this thread.

I'm sorry, but if we get to the point where the military sides with a dictatorial president(laughable idea in itself), I don't care how many guns you have you don't stand a chance against drones, tanks, and the fully armed military. This isn't the 18th century. The government isn't afraid of you with your guns.

I see this argument a lot, and I have to say: It's wrong. Having to respond to guerilla warfare in rural areas will slowly wear the military down as it has in previous wars, but with a much larger population to fight and with way more firearms to contend with. The loss of life on both sides and near total loss of control in areas outside of protected capitol areas, infrastructural hotspots, and military installations makes this prospect wholly untenable. Hell, the military would even have trouble leaving bases to go on patrols or sorties, what with being under constant threat of attack from the civilian population. The government would absolutely be terrified because of the implications of waging war against a heavily-armed populace, no matter the ratio of superiority in arms from one side to the other.

They aren't really.

My stance would be: start with regulation, and then aim for a ban down the line when regulation has already been achieved

Admitting you want a ban further down the line is pretty much Step One in "how to never get any regulation ever." Anybody who wants any kind of increased controls on gun ownership or usage (but not outright banning) will abandon the process the moment you make your intentions to ban clear.
 
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Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
I'm sorry, but if we get to the point where the military sides with a dictatorial president(laughable idea in itself), I don't care how many guns you have you don't stand a chance against drones, tanks, and the fully armed military. This isn't the 18th century. The government isn't afraid of you with your guns.

The point isn't that that the militia will shoot down fighter jets and destroy tanks. It's that having an armed populace opposing your military will mean far more members of your military die (and will be involved in far more lethal escalations that force the military to shoot their own countrymen) that the "cost" of such a deployment becomes too great. No one's doubting that the American military has the capability to carpet bomb every US city, but that tends to be something you do to your enemies, not yourself. In reality it would be an occupation, one that's made far, far more dangerous for your soldiers if the populace resisting it have guns. If you want a real life example, the British military occupied Northern Ireland for decades, and weapon-wise vastly out-gunned the IRA. But the British military wasn't about to send in the Harriers to Belfast, so their existence was moot. The IRA did an effective job at opposing far more organised British Army, to the point that the "solution" was a diplomatic compromise rather than a continued military presence. If the Irish separatists had not been armed, it's hard to see why the British government would have given such compromises.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
The point isn't that that the militia will shoot down fighter jets and destroy tanks. It's that having an armed populace opposing your military will mean far more members of your military die (and will be involved in far more lethal escalations that force the military to shoot their own countrymen) that the "cost" of such a deployment becomes too great. No one's doubting that the American military has the capability to carpet bomb every US city, but that tends to be something you do to your enemies, not yourself. In reality it would be an occupation, one that's made far, far more dangerous for your soldiers if the populace resisting it have guns. If you want a real life example, the British military occupied Northern Ireland for decades, and weapon-wise vastly out-gunned the IRA. But the British military wasn't about to send in the Harriers to Belfast, so their existence was moot. The IRA did an effective job at opposing far more organised British Army, to the point that the "solution" was a diplomatic compromise rather than a continued military presence. If the Irish separatists had not been armed, it's hard to see why the British government would have given such compromises.

The Irish had self rule prior to Irish Civil War. The British intervention was stop the the violence in and Ulster. In 1920 Ireland was awarded self-rule and Ulster elected to remain part of the UK. The IRA didn't want this and this left to the conflict in Northern Ireland. It was only through deescalation on all sides that this stopped. I don't think the two situation are all that comparable. The IRA and UNA were happy to target families from both sides and British Soldiers.

The US army will never turn on the US people as it currently stands. It's just not feasible.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,450
I'm pretty anti-gun, but I'm reasonable enough to understand that completely banning all guns is something that will never happen in this country barring some sort of insane upheaval. Guns are simply much too ingrained in our culture for them to be gone cold turkey.

That being said, I believe there's no justification for private citizens owning weapons meant for waging war. Automatic and semiautomatic weapons are unnecessary for home/self defense and hunting. I would start with the a ban on the sale of those weapons. Close the gun show loophole, gun shows are complete bullshit. Close the boyfriend loophole, if someone is hateful enough to beat their spouse, they don't need to own a gun. Period.

Next, I would allow the owning of high-powered, but low magazine capacity pistols as a start (someone mentioned a Colt 1911 and I'd agree). Also, pump action shotguns and bolt action hunting rifles would be fine as well, as these weapons cannot slaughter scores of people in minutes. That being said, you bet your ass there would be a rigorous process to obtain a license as well as renew the license. It shouldn't be harder for a teenager to illegally buy alcohol than it is for them to buy a gun.

Furthermore, the institution of a buyback program will get some people to willingly give up their stockpiles, even if its not banned guns.

This leads me to the stockpiling of guns. It's bullshit that a small percentage of gun owners in the US own a ridiculous amount of guns. Again, you as a private citizen have no justifiable reason to being stockpiling weapons like you're in a fucking Fallout game. We're in no danger of a tyrannical government takeover, and even if we were, I doubt Joe Six-Pack's AR15 will do much against the armor and drones our military possess. Commonman militias fighting the government is a dumbass power fantasy that some people in the US have had for a long time. Limit gun ownership to one or two arms max.

Lastly, tax the SHIT out of guns and ammo. The best way to limit something is to hit people in their pockets. Again, this will prevent nutcases from stockpiling weapons and ammo for their potential hours-long standoff with the police or whatever.

Also, let's stop ignoring inner city gun violence. Lots of young black men die every damn day for the very same reason we open the gun debate when there's a mass shooting, yet we never hear about it. We're still here.
 

FireSafetyBear

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,248
Gun control was never about banning guns. That only came up because a black President was speaking on it.

It's reasonable to want better background checks, precautions, etc. Commit a crime? No gun. Mental illness? Be cleared by your therapist/doctor before purchasing. Require insurance/certifications/etc.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
The Irish had self rule prior to Irish Civil War. The British intervention was stop the the violence in and Ulster. In 1920 Ireland was awarded self-rule and Ulster elected to remain part of the UK. The IRA didn't want this and this left to the conflict in Northern Ireland. It was only through deescalation on all sides that this stopped. I don't think the two situation are all that comparable. The IRA and UNA were happy to target families from both sides and British Soldiers.

The US army will never turn on the US people as it currently stands. It's just not feasible.
I think it's a useful parallel for an overwhelmingly more powerful military struggling to put down a significantly-less-powerful-but-crucially-still-armed resistance in a modern context. The key point is that all the tanks and fighter jets don't help because you aren't going to use them on your own cities and populace.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,180
There shouldn't need to be a debate on gun control.

PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY IN AMERICA FROM GUN VIOLENCE!

Literally every method to get the guns out of peoples hands should be employed as possible.
There is zero reson for 99% of the population to own any sort of firearm.
 

Chrome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
378
good arguments. brilliant debate

That's rich coming from the person who has subsequently ignored all of my arguments.

The video is from National Geographic from their series called Underworld Inc. They cover things like illegal moonshine, human trafficking, and as the link I provided is about illegal guns. But it doesn't fit your agenda to learn things so why bother right?

It's not that it doesn't fit my agenda. It's just that I have such little faith in on source that I'm not about to dedicate that much time to something when I would rather be doing something else. That and the fact that videos are much harder to properly address in a text based format like this than a web article would be.
 

Rex Griswold

Member
Oct 29, 2017
221
Gun control was never about banning guns. That only came up because a black President was speaking on it.

It's reasonable to want better background checks, precautions, etc. Commit a crime? No gun. Mental illness? Be cleared by your therapist/doctor before purchasing. Require insurance/certifications/etc.

Almost every single thread with any relation to gun control whatsoever on ERA/GAF opened with "BAN ALL GUNS NOW". This is the most proven, effective, and time tested way of guaranteeing that there will be no discussion of gun CONTROL. If someone wants a ban, good for them, keep it to yourself when discussing gun control, not because you don't have a right to speak your mind, but because you need to learn how to get what you want out of people, and part of that is learning to avoid saying stuff you know that the people you're trying to reach a compromise with don't want to hear.

Gun control in the U.S. is about compromise. Screaming about banning all guns now is not compromise and will make sure that most pro-gun people don't want to compromise either. A lot of gun owners, myself included, have been ready to make some changes to gun laws. I'm ready for a federal licencing system, I'm ready for universal background checks, I'm ready to deny people with a history of violence and abuse the right to own a gun, I'm ready for mandatory wait periods. I have no reason to take issue with any of this, because I'm not doing anything questionable with my guns. Half of it is already normal because it's state law.

Gun control needs to improve, but coming up with unreasonable bullshit like 'oh you need to take mental health tests every week because you have more than five guns!' or the usual "BAN ALL GUNS NOW" war cry is exactly how to prevent ANYTHING from happening.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
Florida man here and I think a few things need to happen.

1. Need to have a license to own a gun. This comes with a training period on how to properly handle and store a firearm.

Why do I need a license to drive but not own a killing machine.

2. Ban weapons that fire quickly. Even if it semi auto using bump stocks it needs to be banned.

3. Small magazine sizes. I'm talking 10 round clips here. If someone had to reload in the middle of a shooting it might save more lives.

4. Anyone ever committing a crime, domestic abuse, ect are banned for life from owning a firearm. Anyone with mental health issues are banned until cleared by a mental
Health professional.

5. Ban sales at gun shows. Period.

6. Universal background checks and gun registry.


I think this would help things a lot in this country.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
Ban guns. Period.

The second amendment is literally out of date as a well-regulated militia is no longer necessary to the defense of a free state. We have a standing army now. And nukes.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
good arguments. brilliant debate. The video is from National Geographic from their series called Underworld Inc. They cover things like illegal moonshine, human trafficking, and as the link I provided is about illegal guns. But it doesn't fit your agenda to learn things so why bother right?

Eh... I watched it, or starting watching it rather. It's a complete dramatization. Totally fake. Criminals do not pay thousands for handmade boutique "non-traceable" BS when there are millions of stolen cheap guns readily available here.

You are watching too many hitman movies and CSI baloney.
 
Oct 28, 2017
392
Banning semi-auto bans pretty much all guns. Do you know what you're talking about?



How is an absurd claim to make when it's a right and you want it banned? You aren't even American. There is literally no point to me arguing this with you from your ivory tower.

By semi autos I was referring to the rifles. I specifically mentioned the records of mass shootings.

Anyway those things are designed to kill people with highest efficiency possible, they should have no place in the civilians societies other than law enforcements