What other scale would you use? He's an American politican.
I never understood the argument people who use any other different standards. That's like saying Sanders is far right compared to China.
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Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)
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I never understood the argument people who use any other different standards. That's like saying Sanders is far right compared to China.
...and? He still has a history of saying and doing some shitty things. I don't know how anyone can look at whats going on and say that Biden is the ideal candidate.
Because this "choose right or center-right" dynamic we have in the US is the source of gigantic issues for us, and something we need to think beyond?
Certainly its more useful to our political discourse to view these things from a wider angle?
I mean, yes, but far-left would actually be considerably more focused on more aggressive adoption of communist ideologies and beliefs across the board. That's not really Bernie's style and he largely aligns with the Center-Left lanes of ideology is really my point. Which is indicative of the fact that Bernie's political revolution isn't even necessarily that ground shaking despite it being "radical" for much of the US.
Everyday this guy makes my decision not to vote for him more and more justified.
When I read Biden say
"People want results, not a revolution"
I translate it as
"People want a democratic win, not results"
"People want results, not a revolution"
I translate it as
"People want a democratic win, not results"
Continue to pretend that things are better now than it was 4 years ago.
I think it was right the first time, but the fact he came with it again in 2020 makes him look one note. Changing every question into his stump speech doesn't help
You can't talk about politics in a country without taking into account the status quo. If you do what you're doing, you get to weird places where you're arguing that Democrats in the US are further right than AfD in Germany or the Tories in the UK. You're completely missing what direction the parties are trying to move in.
Biden said it himself: nothing is going to fundamentally change.
This is what people seem to want, unfortunately.
I doubt Bernie will make a comeback at this point and I'll never vote for Biden so I think I'll just check out of this election cycle.
I'll just stick to local politics and wait to see how the republicans and dems plan to fuck me in 2024.
I'll just stick to local politics and wait to see how the republicans and dems plan to fuck me in 2024.
It isn't even a revolution at this point, it's the bare necessities to a functioning state. This crisis now should tell you all you need to know about it, yet a vast population of atomized suburban morons care more about tone and "returning to normal."
Normal is never coming back.
Normal is never coming back.
Yep, between Biden+D Congress or Sanders+R Congress, the former is going to get way more done. Not saying either is necessarily guaranteed to happen, but it's reasonable to assume Biden increases our chances. Performs better in Arizona, North Carolina, Iowa and Georgia, all states that could conceivably flip in the presidential race and have R-held Senate seats up, and even Trump voters may feel more comfortable going D downticket in red states like Kansas, Alabama and Montana with Biden as the nominee rather than Sanders.
Saw a lot of defensive voting in 2016 where Clinton outran most Democratic Senate candidates (people voting Clinton but R downticket for "checks and balances") that I could see with Sanders.
Well yeah because a Democratic win leads to results
I think it's all he could do. He didn't have or want to employ any other strategy because he believed that he didn't need to change but every one else does.
If Sanders was actually getting the youth vote out to massive levels that would guarantee a majority D senate and Congress, maybe he could get some of what he's proposing done!
The youth isn't turning out though, so your next best bet is Biden on the ticket helping us win the Senate, which is looking very much like a possibility. More progressive legislation will get done with a Biden and D Senate than Sanders with an R Senate.
The youth isn't turning out though, so your next best bet is Biden on the ticket helping us win the Senate, which is looking very much like a possibility. More progressive legislation will get done with a Biden and D Senate than Sanders with an R Senate.
I'd be curious to hear why you don't think this same thing will happen with biden, though, given that he's ideologically very similar to where clinton was in 2016 (if not even somewhat to the left, according to people on this very forum)
surely, if those people voted clinton/republican, they'll also vote biden/republican, no?
If you think anyone wants a "revolution" in the middle of a global pandemic apocalypse run on toilet paper... lol.
Because Clinton's ideology had nothing to do with why swing voters went against her. They hated Clinton for her personal baggage and scandals. By contrast, people have generally favorable views of Biden even though his political positions are nearly page-for-page.
To put this in context - per exit polls, a majority of the country thought that between Clinton and Trump, Clinton was the more extremist candidate.
Also, the majority of Dem gains between 2016 and now came from Romney-Clinton voters. They largely stuck with the party in 2018 and are planning on doing so again in 2020. Trump actually being in power now versus a hypothetical in 2016 changes the calculus in Democrats' favor. They'll vote Biden to get Trump out, and Democrats downticket just in case Trump wins again.
First of all, he's not center-right. It's down right disingenious when people call Biden that. He's solidly center left and his platform is one of the most progressive in American history.
As for the 2nd point, sure, but when that stops being useful is when it's used as an bludgeon to attack any candidate when they're already progressive.
Do you prefer Trump to Biden? If not, then not voting for Biden (or not voting at all) makes zero sense. It's obviously your right to not vote if you don't want to, but not voting for Biden because he's not your ideal candidate is a decision against your own self interests.
so context is not useful when criticizing from the left?
I don't think that's a good approach
but the people you're talking about here (clinton/republican voters) aren't people that "went against her" - they're people that went for her, but didn't feel comfortable voting for downticket democrats. I don't know if I buy the idea that those people will now vote biden/democrat under the idea that "if trump still wins, we'll have divided government, which I like" - that's voting for unified government in the hopes that you get divided government, and I don't really think it tracks
it's possible that these people show up, and it's possible that they vote straight democrat, but I don't think many arguments outside of "they think that not just trump but the republican party as a whole have completely fucked up governance" really explain a full-party switch
The problem is, a lot of people dont believe he intends to implement any of these "progressive" policies. He has a very long history voting like a Republican and is shown to be a habitual liar. He lied his ass off all night long last night, lying about his record. He can promise the moon, but it doesnt matter much if no one believes a word he says
And sadly, that will open the door for another Trump to come in. Maybe a more smarter Trump-like figure, which would be far more devastating that all the shit this orange buffoon has done.
I'm struggling with it. Though, I know when it comes to the final election, it's not like my vote will mean much either. I'm one vote in the great state of California. With CA being a majority of Dem voters that will more than likely swing towards Biden in the endgame, and elections still favoring the South and rustbelt states over more densely populated areas thanks to the Electoral bullshit, sometimes it DOES feel like my vote will NEVER matter.
Those people voted straight Democrat downballot in 2018. It's why we flipped the House.
Hmmmmm
Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years
“I tried with Senator Grassley back in the 1980s to freeze all government spending, including Social Security, including everything,” Biden said in 1995.
theintercept.com
Because many of the people who split their tickets between Clinton and Congressional Republicans did not like Clinton. They were voting against Trump and wanted to make sure if Clinton got in (which seemed like an inevitability), she would have a Republican Congress keeping her in line.
Just as a personal example - my home district, Minnesota's 3rd. Fairly well off, educated suburban district. Voted for Clinton by 9 points. Our incumbent Republican rep, Erik Paulsen coasted to re-election, winning by 14 points. Fast-forward two years and Paulsen gets blown the fuck out, losing by more than 11 points to Dean Phillips (an evil moderate Democrat). Larry Sabato now rates the seat Safe Democrat for 2020. Many of those gains are locked in.
Like I said, ticket splitters in 2016 were voting defensively. They found Clinton to be repulsive, but inevitable and Trump worse, so they voted for split government. In 2020, they don't hate Biden but still hate Trump. Unity government under Biden or split government under Trump are both preferable outcomes to unity government under Trump (which is not even something they assumed was possible in 2016). So the best way to ensure either of those outcomes happen is simply by going D down the ticket. "President Trump" was not at the forefront of their minds in 2016 - it was in 2018, and it will be in 2020.
I could be totally off the mark here. But that is my theory. There is a reason most forecasters, pundits etc. are assuming that even if Trump wins, Democrats will at least hold the House majority. Ticket splitting will probably work against Trump this time, if anything.
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Yes, yes. To hell with local elections and voting. If I stayed home and didn't vote I wouldn't have been able to vote for new zoning for disabled persons or vote for higher taxes so my local schools can get better funding.
Remember to vote with your heart even if you don't think it'll do much. No one deserves your vote.
I'm not contesting that - the point I'm trying to make (which I admit I probably should be a bit more explicit about) is that we need to make very certain that whoever the nominee is, especially if it's biden, does not go out and make the "republicans are great, republicans are my friends, we can work with republicans, trump is bad though" argument. what I worry about with biden insofar as the house/senate is concerned is that his love of making that exact same statement is going to lead to a lot of these voters saying "well then it's fine if I vote out trump and otherwise vote republican". that's kind of a disaster, because as much as people like the hypothetical "well a biden/democrat government is better than a sanders/republican one" argument (which may be true!), a biden/republican government is almost assuredly worse than a sanders/republican one. the democratic candidate, regardless of who it is, needs to be out there saying "vote out all the bums, they're all responsible for this, they're trump's enablers, they let him put all these idiots into his cabinet that are killing americans with their negligence"
if this is the bargain the party's going to strike, they need to make sure biden's on board with it. I worry that he isn't, or that it won't be the message he pushes.
that's totally fair, and could even be true - I don't have any insight into the brains of these people. my point is just basically what I've said above - I worry that biden's explicit "let's work together with republicans, republicans are my friends, just not trump, he is not my friend" argument pushes those people to vote biden/republican because he's saying it's ok
It was for a host of reasons, from 25 years of GOP anti-Clinton propaganda, to Misoginy, to a botched FBI inquiry used as a bludgeon by the Republicans, to a Republican led sham of an attack with Ben Ghazi, to a bitter battle with Sanders who begrudgingly conceeded way after he should have, to Russian and Alt Right Trolls disinformation campaigns on social medias which culminated in the PizzaGate bullshit, to a DNC email hack, to... Etc.
In the end, it came to a razor thin margin, and probably was decided by Comey's decision to send a letter to Congress about a useless inquiry reigniting fears and distastes a mere 10 days before the election.
The fact that Clinton was Center left (and thus less "energizing") compared to a very left Sanders had very little to do with her loss, and was just one of a myriad factors, it was shown by the good ratio at which Sanders voters translated to Hillary voters.
It's stupid because I can make an argument that Bernie Sanders is far right when compared against China or North Korea. You should compare American politicans with other American politics when making a left-right comparison.
This is very disinegenious. When Sanders and Biden are closer to voting than Biden is compared to the average GOP voters and people are saying he votes like a Republican, you are straight up ignoring reality.
Hmmmmm
Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years
“I tried with Senator Grassley back in the 1980s to freeze all government spending, including Social Security, including everything,” Biden said in 1995.
Politicans should change their positions all the time as their views evolve. That's called being a human.
Are you going to do the same for Sanders and the Brady Bill?
Hmmmmm
Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years
“I tried with Senator Grassley back in the 1980s to freeze all government spending, including Social Security, including everything,” Biden said in 1995.
TIL no one evolves their positions ever
Bernie certainly has.
Sure but maybe don't lie about your previous record?
what
there's nothing functionally communist about China or North Korea, china is a single party state capitalist system and north Korea is a hereditary military dictatorship
there is no sliding scale where they are further left then bernie, lol that's literally like that glen beck chart where obama is trending towards mao
Are you kidding me? They literally have SOEs in China that dwarf most other countries. I doubt Bernie Sanders is asking for the US federal government to own 30% of the assets in the economy.
People can evolve their positions, but looking at the last 40 years who would you trust to be on the right side of history on todays controversial issues? Joe Biden evolves after movements pick up momentum or it becomes obvious that certain things are inevitable. He evolves with the glacial pace of the Democratic party at large. Sanders has been much more likely to get it right the first time and take a politically inconvenient stance for what is just.
Biden's VP will running on this "My administration was the one to beat Trump. Let's not risk losing all that we built by running such a risky candidate/ progressive after the 2020 primary showed they don't bring out the numbers to win."
It's a never ending cycle.
I think people on ERA really underestimate how moderate most Democrats are and how content they are with that. My lifelong Democrat mother who thinks Trump is the spawn of Satan told me last week that Bernie is too radical and is just the Trump of the left. I told her that is really unfair and explained why, but I think her mind is made up.
One of my other friends who is good friends with the local Democrat party head posted a meme on Facebook that the pandemic-induced fight over supplies is good practice for what a Bernie presidency would be like.
One of my other friends who is good friends with the local Democrat party head posted a meme on Facebook that the pandemic-induced fight over supplies is good practice for what a Bernie presidency would be like.
Bernie needs to drop out after Tuesday. Seriously. He already doesn't have a chance but Tuesday should be the final moment.
They just don't want to pay more taxes. Medicare for all is not radical, free college is not radical, we just have to chip in a bit more to make it happen. Reaganomics really fucked up this country and our whole fuck you got mine mentality.
do you even understand what state capitalism is? it's in the name
the left to right scale is not determined by public ownership of the economy and nothing else
most petro states have a large part of their economy dominated SOEs but that doesn't make them communist
it's a total mislabeling
As with politics, as with anything: you work with what you have, not what you wish you had
I don't have an ideal candidate. I stan none of these people. I do not live in a swing state or a red state. We do not live in a direct democracy so that whole not voting for Biden is a vote for a Trump schtick does nothing for me.
I'm a poor black man in New York with a poor black family. We will be fucked, regardless just like we always have been. So his return to normalcy just means more getting fucked for me.
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