Maybe I'm wrong, but in this context when people use the term Nazi I don't think they're talking about card-carrying Nazis with the uniform and all, but more white nationalists or white nationalist sympathisers.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Democratic Presidential Primaries & Caucuses |March OT| Last Tuesday was 1000 years ago, old news no one cares about (Discussion Guidelines in OP)
- Thread starter Poodlestrike
- Start date
- Status
Maybe I'm wrong, but in this context when people use the term Nazi I don't think they're talking about card-carrying Nazis with the uniform and all, but more white nationalists or white nationalist sympathisers.
if there's are 60+ million committed violent ethnontionalists in america (ie not people who are being led into it) then it's a wrap for america
proportionally that number would be exponentially larger then the proportion of nazi supporters in Wiemar Germany during the depression
But Biden is the one who drew massive turnout increases in most Dem primaries thus far. Why would you ignore that data?
First off, Trump is literally getting thousands more killed in the US right now than was necessary by lying about COVID19 because he wanted to be reelected. There was no moral ambiguity. He just wanted to get reelected and therefore thousands (and probably more) lives were expendable. Hell, Trump's given everyone a billion reasons to kick him out of office. If you don't care about getting him out, you must be extremely privileged and/or don't actually care about the country.
Second, has anyone presented a better strategy for getting votes? The Democratic Primary had about 50 candidates and none have gotten more votes than Biden. Also, he actually has experience literally being in the White House, but who cares about experience when I can promise you exactly what you want to hear without any way of achieving those promises.
OP
OP
Then... everything you said before was, what, a smokescreen? There is no meaningful move Joe Biden can make to earn your vote, and every attempt anybody has ever made to talk to you in this thread about what it would take to earn your vote has been futile because the problem is the person, not the positions?
America is very spread out
Also, I'm talking about the adult population
if you don't think that there's white nationalists spread out across this country in every rural area and suburban area and minorly in urban areas, then you don't understand this country
I'm trying so hard not to call people "fucking idiots". There's is just zero awareness of the stakes here for some. Like "RBG getting replaced doesn't matter". WTF?
Id say several million of them are more reluctant than committed. But they are definitely indoctrinated. Agai,n labels are the biggest distinction. They watch fox news they agree with white nationalist rhetoric and they only recoil when exposed. They are just following orders you could say. Am I supposed to make the distinction because they are polite and go to my gym? nah. A maga hat, A Trump sticker.. its just a cleaned up swastika.
I take solice in the fact that these people likely don't vote regardless.
It really feels like for some of y'all the list of "bad guys" from worst to good goes as such:
Moderate democrats -> far right -> moderate right -> non voters -> leftists -> online leftists
Moderate democrats -> far right -> moderate right -> non voters -> leftists -> online leftists
I'm saying it won't work because that strategy hasn't worked. It does not work. The dems have tried that for years. Unless you're the Vice President of a guy who had to step down because his corruption reached mass revulsion (which, sorry to say has not happened to Trump), then you are on a losing message.
Jesus Christ people, I'm trying to help you get the progressive vote. I'm telling you point blank what to do to get the progressives (and actually the voter base as a whole) to vote for Joe because I want him to win the general. And before you try and lecture me, I already said I was voting for Joe.
i very clearly specified active ethnonationalists and not sympathizers
yeah there's a lot of people sympathetic to fascism that's not what you originally claimed
even conservatively 10% taken at face is still far in excess of the explicitly genocidal support for the Nazi party when they seized power
it doesn't seem like you're trying that hard since you said it anyway
I stand by that number. If you don't then you don't understand racial relations in America.
frankly if you don't think there's a difference between what we get from the current 5-4 conservative court and the kind of rulings we'd see from a 7-2 conservative court we'd get under a second term of trump you don't understand the judicial system at all.
Eh if Biden ran in the general election on M4A and a robust climate change proposal with some sort of compromise student loan forgiveness and marijuana legalization/criminal justice reform I could maybe vote for him. I voted for Kerry, Obama twice, and Hillary Clinton. I've been able to hold my nose over the years and vote for centrists. Even though Biden's record on race, foreign policy, etc. is relatively disqualifying, I would be willing to give him another look if he adopted some of Bernie's platform.
Biden's platform right now is nowhere near where I'd need it to be for a Democrat running for president in 2020.
Assuming you're actually saying this in good faith, there's nothing Biden can do to "earn the vote" of people who are still (disingenuously) on the fence. Just look at this very thread. The exact same people who are saying Biden needs to earn their vote are also saying that none of his leftward changes actually matter because they don't trust him to actually implement them if he were to become President.
instead of no-true scostmanning me you could ask for my sources and the methology i'm using and actually engage with that. Historical studies on fascism are important context for these conversations
if you're right and i'm wrong i think the prognosis for america is pretty dire
Are people in here really still thinking that Trump got into office because of "economic anxiety" instead of white nationalism? Is that what the current discourse is about?
SMH.
Only more progressive than the current POTUS. Nothing more, nothing less.
SMH.
Only more progressive than the current POTUS. Nothing more, nothing less.
Almost certainly not. The kind of primary campaign that Biden has run isn't going to allow him to easily adopt progressive policies moving forward. He should probably try, though.
Wats he supposed to do erase his record and remake it before November? As much as i would love for him to adopt all of Bernie's policy and make it his own. It isn't reasonable to think that would happen. Biden is Biden and Bernie is Bernie. The best we can hope for is Biden adopts more leftist policy into his own, because the alternative is going further to the right.
I feel like you forgot the part where Donald Trump won the presidency
just because they're not ALL out there wearing hats or marching doesn't mean they're not out there.
now, will they all sacrifice their perfect lily white lives for the cause? No.
Would they be okay with a quiet fall into an ethno state? Of course.
this should've been obvious to you the second Trayvon Martin happened and this country showed it's colors again.
No, but he should be pressured to every step of the way. I also don't think he's dumb enough to stand in a Democratic congress's way if they pass progressive policy to his desk. But no, I don't think he'll advocate for it.
I called this out like two years ago here. There's not a good case for Joe Biden other than "not-Trump". It's worrisome to have a candidate like that. Even if he won you wonder what his presidency would look like. "Four more years of Obama" is not going to cut it, it's woefully inadequate.
Personally: fascists > billionaires > neoliberals > moderates > non voters/engagers.
The latter permit power to the former by inaction. Fascists and billionaires rule America because oppression and profitable inequality go hand in hand, neoliberals don't care either way because the markets are the only measure they look at, moderates do what moderates have been doing forever and fake worry about civility and punditry and polls and other useless shit while making sure the poor and at risk minorities don't get too uppity with their demands, and then a large part of the population just doesn't vote or engage for several reasons, imo the severe lack of representation being a very major one. Several of these groups share Venn diagrams.
I don't consider the last group 'bad'. It is what it is. When the political class vastly represents a tiny wealthy majority at the expense of their constituents, you can't demand people to engage.
Not committed violent ethnonationalists but people who agree either consciously or subconsciously agree with that rhetoric and that as a political project.
Oh good apparently I'm not talking in good faith because I want to make sure we win in 2020. Yes, there are lost causes, fortunately the primary has proven to you that these people won't come out and vote come the general. So you can try and go for those who aren't hard liners against Biden. I want to make sure Joe wins in the general and this "vote for me because the other is worse" is not a successful strategy
Chocking Biden's appeal up to "Not Trump" is an oversimplification. Biden does have numerous policies that are beneficial to our current state and Obama's tenure. What sucks is that almost every other primary contender had a more ambitious policy list, but that doesn't mean he doesn't offer contrast to voters.
I think he will enact progressive policies. Will he adopt Bernie's platform? No. But that isn't the only "progressive" agenda.
Clearly not. There's not a good choice left for us to make, unfortunately.
we shouldn't need to convince progressives to vote out trump though?
You're either in the Democratic party or you're not.
There is a straight up racist in the white house and progressives need to be convinced to vote him out? How do they even call themselves progressives while sitting out on the attempt to vote out a damn Nazi?
Do you not know the history of America? hell just Google the southern strategy.
Yup, Biden is as close to "Generic Dem" as possible and he'll be a consensus president, he'll be as moderate or as progressive as our most democratic* institutions want.
*the house is the most democratic institution we have. It's other half, the senate, is the least democratic.
I agree, the original post i was responding too did not and i was trying to follow their logic through to demonstrate why it was problematic
however if even the 60 million sympathizers is accurate, shouldn't we be worried about the possibility that a recession will be not able to neuter trump electorally
it seems like that number would comfortably represent a critical mass of sympathizers considering that that the Third Reich had nowhere near that degree of popular support for genocidal campaigns
Joe Biden, for all intents and purposes, will be figure head domestically and will sign whatever Democrats pass. That's a good thing.
OP
OP
That... runs directly counter to what you just said, though.
If the issue is trust, then no policy shift can make up for it, because the "he doesn't really mean it" response is always there. And if that's not the issue, then... uh... why do people keep saying that they won't credit the leftward shifts they've already made because of trust?
The choice will be made though. I think if I wanted to be responsible I would think of this election in a different light that would put it in a perspective i could parse that would make the choice come to me. Like in calculus, change the equation to isolate the variable you need. We may have to look beyond what is adequate.
Have you ever heard of a double bind.
We're reaching a point where we legitimately can't kick the can down the road anymore and we have people telling us to just calm down and wait it out a few more cycles for a more opportune moment than this to magically appear.
If 20% of the country are Nazis then if your solutions isnt militant socialism then idek what to tell you.
Yeah, because Trump is definitely the first racist to win re-election /s
Listen, stop trying to twist what I say. Voting for "the other person is worst" hasn't worked. I know it absolutely sucks. Yes I wish people would vote for that reason but that reason alone doesn't get us an election. Even if the opposition is a hateful racist who actively tries and downplays the suffering of minorities.
so change your priorities so you no longer have the issues that you had before?
politics isn't algebra, there are ideas and material realities and they have substance
not saying that harm reduction isn't valid but for people who don't think that way, they think that for a reason.
Surveys show non-voters tend to fall into that social-conservative economic-intervention category, i.e. the "welfare for me but not for thee" category.
Broader engagement of the non-voting public would not lead to the outcomes we're looking for here.
The entire primary debate is out the window now that the issues are completely different. The one consistent thing is that trump is a POS. But in some ways it is better they rallied around Biden than say Pete. At least Biden has the experience factor. But he needs to be more visual right now. I have seen or heard from him in a week, whichever needs to be out saying what we should be doing instead of people thinking trump is handling it well. Biden is acting like an ex-president, not commenting.
It doesn't, though? I said I don't trust Biden to fight for progressive policies. He hasn't even adopted progressive policy yet in a meaningful way! Like, we're not even on step 1, because Biden hasn't had a policy shift. He hasn't tried to earn the votes of Sanders supporters. And he may not even try to, which is fine. Maybe he can win without us.
Exactly.
Joe Biden is basically the median of the Democratic Party. Look at what the Party's considering now that was unforeseeable 4 or 8 years ago.
All I know is that reading all the Busters in this thread makes me even more energized to donate to the Biden campaign.
You can't always hand over your last shred of political agency and still expect representatives to feel obliged to represent you.
- Status