I'm sure we have a other similar opinions...? Like, just because a racist endorses something doesn't mean that thing is racist. What kinda fucked up logic is this?
Democrats are drafting a proposal for $5 billion for border security with ‘no new structures’ (No Wall) to end shutdown
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This is exactly what it is. A bunch of ignorance going on in here.
Dems should give the GOP N O T H I N G
They do this, then holding out for this long was fucking pointless
They do this, then holding out for this long was fucking pointless
If immigration is a net positive for us (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-09-22/immigrants-are-a-fiscal-boon-not-a-burden) then why is it necessary to increase spending on security? They commit crime at a lesser rate than Americans do too. So what were saying is we should be spending money to prevent us from earning money because of why exactly?
(if we're getting down to brass tacks - i'm a socdem and my current goal isn't quite open borders, it's a North American Schengen Area
in which case US-Mexico border security money is still a nonstarter)
in which case US-Mexico border security money is still a nonstarter)
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I know it sounds a little left field, but this is what I honestly think the pivot on the actual bill will be, from Democrats.
He's referring to this latest stance from Democrats, which I'm also expecting this "border security" stimulus to be actually be about, outside of more judges for processing:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4845968/democrats-u-s-government-shutdown-canada-border/
You are aware that US can have border security and still provide asylum to people and have a liberal immigration policy, right?
Because security isn't just funneling money to ICE to give them more kidnapping nets
The government is not shutdown because of border security. Not giving Trump a wall means he is getting nothing.
Thats not what i asked. I asked why border security is a necessity if illegal immigrants are providing more good than bad. I want to hear why border security is a problem, and why it requires MORE funding.
There is no argument. We've seen those 6 bills, they've passed the House. They don't include a wall. You seem lost.
I don't see how there's a left-wing justification for this, if the bill includes:
Drones. More drones on the southern border.
More funding for Border Patrol, which has a rough track record:
Since 2004, the southern Arizona humanitarian organization No More Deaths has documented U.S. Border Patrol agents committing human rights abuses, ranging from cruel, unsafe, and unsanitary detention conditions to physical and sexual assault. Independent research funded by the Ford Foundation verifies these findings, and concludes that at least 11% of individualswho pass through Border Patrol custody experience this kind of mistreatment.
On January 17, 2018, No More Deaths, alongside Tucson’s Coalición de Derechos Humanos, issued a new report which reveals how Border Patrol agents contribute to the widespread disruption of humanitarian efforts, including the destruction of 3,586 gallons of clean drinking water placed along migration trails between 2012 and 2015. Within hours of the report’s release the Border Patrol retaliated by raiding a humanitarian aid station in Ajo, Arizona and arresting Scott Warren, a professor at Arizona State University and No More Deaths volunteer, along with the two migrants to whom he was providing care. Warren now faces felony charges under a human smuggling statute. Less than a week later, eight humanitarian volunteers received indictments for leaving clean drinking water along the “Devil’s Highway” area of the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge. These acts of retaliation appear to confirm the worst allegations about the Border Patrol, including that the agency’s institutional culture maintains a fundamental contempt for the sanctity of human life. This attitude is not new, but rather has been woven into the strategy of U.S. border enforcement since at least the early 1990s.
https://nacla.org/blog/2018/02/23/case-dismantling-us-border-patrol
The 210 corruption cases documented by POGO are just those that have come to light and in which legal action was taken. In 2014, the American Immigration Council published data on 809 complaints of alleged abuse by Border Patrol agents from 2009 to 2012. In 97 percent of the cases, Border Patrol took no action on the complaints. The same year, Tomsheck toldReveal that at least a quarter of violent incidents involving Border Patrol agents were “highly suspect,” adding that “in nearly every instance, there was an effort by Border Patrol leadership to make a case to justify the shooting versus doing a genuine, appropriate review of the information and the facts at hand.” In 2016, Reveal identified 140 CBP officials who had been arrested or convicted for acts of corruption including weapons charges, drug smuggling, and human trafficking.
https://www.motherjones.com/politic...trol-agents-just-as-trump-wants-to-hire-more/
Drones. More drones on the southern border.
More funding for Border Patrol, which has a rough track record:
Since 2004, the southern Arizona humanitarian organization No More Deaths has documented U.S. Border Patrol agents committing human rights abuses, ranging from cruel, unsafe, and unsanitary detention conditions to physical and sexual assault. Independent research funded by the Ford Foundation verifies these findings, and concludes that at least 11% of individualswho pass through Border Patrol custody experience this kind of mistreatment.
On January 17, 2018, No More Deaths, alongside Tucson’s Coalición de Derechos Humanos, issued a new report which reveals how Border Patrol agents contribute to the widespread disruption of humanitarian efforts, including the destruction of 3,586 gallons of clean drinking water placed along migration trails between 2012 and 2015. Within hours of the report’s release the Border Patrol retaliated by raiding a humanitarian aid station in Ajo, Arizona and arresting Scott Warren, a professor at Arizona State University and No More Deaths volunteer, along with the two migrants to whom he was providing care. Warren now faces felony charges under a human smuggling statute. Less than a week later, eight humanitarian volunteers received indictments for leaving clean drinking water along the “Devil’s Highway” area of the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge. These acts of retaliation appear to confirm the worst allegations about the Border Patrol, including that the agency’s institutional culture maintains a fundamental contempt for the sanctity of human life. This attitude is not new, but rather has been woven into the strategy of U.S. border enforcement since at least the early 1990s.
https://nacla.org/blog/2018/02/23/case-dismantling-us-border-patrol
The 210 corruption cases documented by POGO are just those that have come to light and in which legal action was taken. In 2014, the American Immigration Council published data on 809 complaints of alleged abuse by Border Patrol agents from 2009 to 2012. In 97 percent of the cases, Border Patrol took no action on the complaints. The same year, Tomsheck toldReveal that at least a quarter of violent incidents involving Border Patrol agents were “highly suspect,” adding that “in nearly every instance, there was an effort by Border Patrol leadership to make a case to justify the shooting versus doing a genuine, appropriate review of the information and the facts at hand.” In 2016, Reveal identified 140 CBP officials who had been arrested or convicted for acts of corruption including weapons charges, drug smuggling, and human trafficking.
https://www.motherjones.com/politic...trol-agents-just-as-trump-wants-to-hire-more/
I wouldn't be surprised. The base of the other side is already eating this deal up.
Oh my God... Okay, we'll try this again:
Pelosi said that she WILL NOT NEGOTIATE SPENDING ON IMMIGRATION UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT IS OPEN.
THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T OPEN.
That's what the quote proves. Good lord.
Naw but I'm not dumb enough to believe it's all going to ICE. If I wasnt clear enough, I agree with you.
Giving the GOP anything in order to re-open the government is short-sighted because they will use this tactic going forward. We should not be rewarding this bullshit. Even if it's not what Trump originally wanted, we are saying "Open the government and we'll give you this." We shouldn't be making deals until the government is re-opened. Which the GOP can do whenever they want.
That's your personal goal. It was never mine. So hold that. Open borders are IMO truly over a century away with the way the world currently works. I have never been delusional enough to think we were going to get there in my lifetime. But there's a SHITLOAD OF ROOM between Open Borders and ICE basically kidnapping children. That's where my focus is, not on some fairytale Utopian open borders dreamland that has absolutely no way of happening anytime soon.
No wonder some of you are freaking out. Maybe pay closer attention. The dems weren't ever actually against giving some money for border control. It's even been offered prior to this. The stance didn't change, many of you just didn't bother to look close enough to see what the stance was to begin with.
These people are fleeing terrible situations (many the US helped create) and getting this shit at the border and people In here seriously are asking me why sending them $5 billion more dollars might be racist.
because illegal immigrants are providing less than legal citizens and legal residents, and by simply ignoring illegal immigration and turning a blind eye, you encourage it where even more illegal occupants in the country are providing less than legal ones. the end result is ultimately less money coming in (taxes) than is being used to support them (as occupants of this country are entitled to by basic rights. roads. protection. etc)
this is why legal immigration exists in every civilized country in the world.. and every country with little to no border security is impoverished.
Trump doesn't want this though, he wants a wall. His base also wants the wall. He's got the longest shut down in history because he and his base both want it. I don't see anyway that he accepts this deal it it reopens the government. What's he going to barter if it opens? It they reopen it with this deal, the talk of the wall is dead, isn't it?
Correct. He's not going to accept this deal... And there's a good chance his party won't either.
Apparently, we're all arguing over optics. Because no one actually thinks this is going to end the shutdown
If contribution to society was a necessity for citiziens living here the vast majority would get the boot so I don't subscribe to that position. And even then, they take jobs 99% of Americans wont, get paid far less, give into social benefits while getting nothing back, and committing less crime than Americans is a pretty solid sell. They provide a net positive, I dont give a fuck about whether or not thats more than the net positive most citizens give. A positive is a positive, why are we paying to circumvent that? And lets say if we let it get worse we'll see diminishing returns, the question still begs, WHY would we INCREASE spending for a problem that actually is a benefit? Your post reeks of antiimigration.
Not only that, but the border isn't even the primary passage illegal immigrants take to get here. Why are we talking about INCREASING spending on a problem that doesn't exist, in an area that isn't even the primary passage for immigrants to take refuge here? And thats not even considering the debt we owe to most of them for creating the circumstances that led to them trying to seek refuge here.
Immigrants are a good thing, financially and socially. However that does not mean the border shouldn't be funded appropriately for security and immigrant processing. Our lawmakers basically all agree that an increase in funding is necessary at least temporarily due to obsolete technology and insufficient funding for the judicial system and I'm inclined to agree with our lawmakers.
Border security will always be a "problem" because people will always try to smuggle good and humans both ways.
It’s not about giving Trump something he didn’t “originally” want. He doesn’t care about border security. He doesn’t want increased funding for border security, at all.
He wants a wall and he refers to that as border security. When this bill goes nowhere, that will be clear to everyone.
It's not really open borders people want.
No one reasonable condones people walking in and out of the country with ease and virtually no checking of VISAs, Passports, etc. The issues of people smuggling items and other people into the country are very real things that require our borders/ports of entry to be patrolled in some aspects and within reason of basic human decency. Of course now with the advent of drones, satellite imagery, etc. we can feasibly do that without expanding the manpower, and thus help to further take costs down over the long run by requiring less humans to physically patrol the border. Of course we need to then, as part of a greater border security/immigration package should expand our court system to accommodate people who do make it here or are asking for asylum, as well as provide these people a decent chance to defend themselves by not solely relying on people doing pro bono work.
I get that people tend to attach the idea of "border security" specifically with ICE and cowboy Border Patrol agents, but there's more to it than that and its certainly something that if the Dems take control of the government in 2020 can be specifically addressed.
But as for right now, the major issue here as I see it is that people can't see the forest for the trees. Viewing this offer of $5 billion as anything other than an empty gesture with the full expectation that it won't be taken are getting wound up over nothing. The Dems are playing the political game right now. We're so caught up in philosophical symbolism that we can't see practically what's going on here; the Dems are calling the GOP's (more specifically Trump's) bluff and making them look even more unreasonable. Trump is determined to have a wall. The Dems are making a reasonable compromise gesture here knowing Trump won't take it, thus crushing one of their defenses that the Dems aren't coming to the table on this. Because at the end of the day the Dem position has been that the government needs to be reopened. Not that we need DACA. Not immigration reform. Not anything other than federal workers need to be paid what they're owed, which is a position that I think is universally backed by the majority of the public. Soon it's going to shift to the courts need to be open to handle all the crime that Trump is concerned about. Then it'll be that farmers need to get their government assistance. All the while there are proposals sitting in the Senate right now that would open the government today if they were only voted on and Trump were to sign.
The imperative is shifting here in public opinion. The border isn't as important as making sure that the government pays the people it should and performs the actions that people expect it to do. The more this administration keeps pushing the narrative that the pain that hundreds of thousands, soon to be million+ of people who are directly effected by this shutdown is worth the price of a stupid wall, the more that this turns into Trump's White Whale. The Dems know this and they're going to keep playing this game until either people revolt and force their Congresspeople to act, or Trump has to surrender due to severely dropping poll numbers/economic outlook to pass the reopening of the government and hope that Congress takes up border security talks, which it likely won't get past the House.
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You're right, I'm sorry. CBP is the organization kidnapping children. ICE kidnaps parents. Kind of like A/B testing for human rights violations.
In any case we should defund both of them until the tribunal can get underway.
I really hope the orange turd falls for the bait and vetoes this. It seems like pretty much a win-win for the Dems, despite the outrageously high number allocated.
So if dems gave away 5 billion in welfare cuts, it’d still be a win because no wall?
That's the whole of it. If Democrats submit this deal and Republicans take it, it's a huge loss for Dems, and it will kind of lower my estimation of this forums political savvy.
The first part is basically saying "because others say its a problem". We need more judges because we are widening the net in which we sweep up immigrants. Suggesting we need more of a solution to a problem we are creating is circular logic.
The last points are literally GOP talking points.
umm.. none of it is.
false is that illegal immigrants cost more than they contribute. absolutely false.
but, a legal occupant, either immigrant or visa holder.. is either paying taxes, paying fees, etc. they are also maintaining other legal rights contributing to taxes.. drivers' licenses, business licenses, etc.
a legal citizen by virtue of what is required of legal citizens is contributing more to the funding of this country than an illegal immigrant, EVEN THOUGH the illegal immigrant is still contributing (as opposed to burdening)
the second problem that exists is even if you provide a path way to citizenship, by continuing to turn a blind eye you literally offer no incentive for them to obtain citizenship. at that point all it accomplishes is paying taxes and taking in less money with no upside as they are already receiving the basic rights and have no concern to ever stop receiving them, without contributing their share to them through state and federal taxes.
legal immigration will always provide more to this country than illegal immigration. I don't even know how this can be argued. The false narrative is the one saying that illegal immigration is a burden. it's a net gain. but it would be a bigger gain if they were legal occupants.
And why would they do that? Offerring border security is designed to expose Trump. If he actually takes it (lol), it’s a win as well.
I want to unpack this a bit.
Are you somehow suggesting that there aren't people trying to cross the border who should be in some way inspected and/or stopped? The GOP are certainly overblowing the issue, but that does not mean the issue is non-existent. Borders need to be secured and the process for incoming migrants needs to be robust and both of these things require funding.
I agree that the methodology of both is atrocious, but again this is a play by the Democrats because they know Trump will not budge. He wants the wall and only the wall. They aren't seeing this funding.
Open the government first, then lets talk about funding. How can you be working for an organization that isn't even open?
EDIT: Shutdowns should not even be an option unless the country was in dire straights. This shutdown that politicians hold over the public's head as a sticking point to get their way, no matter what side is completely ridiculous. Our country looks like a bunch of idiots that cannot manage ourselves. Talk about not a good look for a country who positions themselves as a world leader.
EDIT: Shutdowns should not even be an option unless the country was in dire straights. This shutdown that politicians hold over the public's head as a sticking point to get their way, no matter what side is completely ridiculous. Our country looks like a bunch of idiots that cannot manage ourselves. Talk about not a good look for a country who positions themselves as a world leader.
If the dems give Trump 5 billion dollars, he’s not going to use it to help asylum seekers. And no I don’t think we need to shore up security at the Canadian border.
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