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Democrats to AOC "You aren't supposed to go after other Democrats" as they hope to get her to fall into line

Oct 25, 2017
3,153
Denver
This but this is also something one should know going in. It doesn't take a lot of experience to know you have to learn how to navigate the workings of any new job. You can not go in an bull your way through. That's not going to work in many or any place of employment, especially a place like Congress where many people have taken years to build up relationships and contacts. It's the old saying of it's not what you say but how you say it. It really makes me wonder how she would do in any other job.
Except in this case her employers are her voters, who presumably voted for her to shake things up a little. She's not employed by democratic party officials.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
That's never how it goes as long as the majority holds. When the number of incoming members have a majority that is out of line with the prevailing rulers, either they usurp them in a decade or 2 or they get coopted by the rulers.


It is a little early because she is the first of a new crop of younger dems stepping up but if the majority of newly elected dems are like Ocasio in the next three congressional elections then it means they have to adapt or get replaced.
She's not in the majority, she's in a minority of the progressives and not all the progressives are on her team. Election's over, now's the time for working in congress with what they have. Next election for reinforcements comes in '20. Politicians who are progressives which aren't in her sub-group, includes Pelosi, who is not a socialist. The Justice Democrats got 7 people elected, that's it. They're going to need to get more allies outside their ranks to make those ambitions happen n this congress. Pelosi isn't going hold their hand every single time,

It was the conservative side who have been doing the challenges for leadership this round, they may have lost but they were coordinated to do that, meanwhile all the progressives had was Marcia Fudge? Who fizzled out. You know Tim Ryan, who tried to challenge Pelosi recently over Speakership? He's an experienced congressman who has been on multiple committees like the Subcommittee of Defence, Subcommittee of Transport, Housing and Urban Relations and Committee on the Budget. He was able to get eleven members to sign up for his fight with Pelosi.
AOC is not in a position yet to equal Tim Ryan in congress for leadership seats, and this sort of behavior will make it more difficult to do so.
 
Jun 8, 2018
427
Except in this case her employers are her voters, who presumably voted for her to shake things up a little. She's not employed by democratic party officials.
On top of this, the senior members of the Democratic party aren't her superiors, they're her peers and equals. She's not an average joe newly hired to the bottom rungs of a company, she's already sitting on the Board of Directors, facing off against the other members of the same Board.

She's already earned her spot.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
Except in this case her employers are her voters, who presumably voted for her to shake things up a little. She's not employed by democratic party officials.
Will her voters like her performance if she is unable to pass any bills to help them? She's not passing bills by herself. Part of how she's going to help them with their goals is working with her colleagues in congress. This is a team sport.

On top of this, the senior members of the Democratic party aren't her superiors, they're her peers and equals. She's not an average joe newly hired to the bottom rungs of a company, she's already sitting on the Board of Directors, facing off against the other members of the same Board.

She's already earned her spot.
Her bosses in the House are Pelosi, and any chairpeople on committees. Dems work on seniority, as well.

She earned getting a seat in congress, she hasn't earned any leadership positions. Those require votes from Dems in congress.

In congress she is at the bottom rung, that's where all politicians start.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,159
Except in this case her employers are her voters, who presumably voted for her to shake things up a little. She's not employed by democratic party officials.
Then she's likely not going to get anything she wants accomplished. She's not going to get the positions she wants to further push what she wants and what those that voted for her want. What's more important for the people that voted for her in the end? That she makes waves or she actually accomplishes something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,108
On top of this, the senior members of the Democratic party aren't her superiors, they're her peers and equals. She's not an average joe newly hired to the bottom rungs of a company, she's already sitting on the Board of Directors, facing off against the other members of the same Board.

She's already earned her spot.
This is a very bad analogy, as many parts of the Legislative apparatus are based on seniority and personal connections.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,153
Denver
Will her voters like her performance if she is unable to pass any bills to help them? She's not passing bills by herself. Part of how she's going to help them with their goals is working with her colleagues in congress. This is a team sport.
It's not like she's doing nothing but trying to make enemies. What's her major crimes? Pushing for a stronger Climate Change committee, the end of Pay-Go, and for a spot on Ways and Means? Generally saying that dems should primary people who don't represent their constituents? The horror.
Then she's likely not going to get anything she wants accomplished. She's not going to get the positions she wants to further push what she wants and what those that voted for her want. What's more important for the people that voted for her in the end? That she makes waves or she actually accomplishes something.
The two are one in the same. How much change are you really doing when it's a prerequisite to conform to the will of everyone else already there before you get to do anything?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,955
It's not like she's doing nothing but trying to make enemies. What's her major crimes? Pushing for a stronger Climate Change committee, the end of Pay-Go, and for a spot on Ways and Means? Generally saying that dems should primary people who don't represent their constituents? The horror.

The two are one in the same. How much change are you really doing when it's a prerequisite to conform to the will of everyone else already there before you get to do anything?
Because the idea here is that moderate dems will eventually skew left and that’s good enough so everybody has to kowtow to them because nobody is willing to be principled about anything.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
It's not like she's doing nothing but trying to make enemies. What's her major crimes? Pushing for a stronger Climate Change committee, the end of Pay-Go, and for a spot on Ways and Means? Generally saying that dems should primary people who don't represent their constituents? The horror.
Her making enemies makes doing all that harder, not easier. This ins't about "crimes" it's about working in a work space which expects a certain custom to how they operate. Like all organisations. I don't see her liking her chief of staff making fun of her on twitter or alienating her and her interns, so why should that behaviour be ok in congress?

The two are one in the same. How much change are you really doing when it's a prerequisite to conform to the will of everyone else already there before you get to do anything?
Do you want some change, or no change? She isn't in a position to override how this works. She's at the lowest position with very few allies, which will stay like that through her career unless she figures out how to use the system to work for her. The two are linked, to her detriment. Conforming is the nature of the beast in organisations, how do you expect her to bills if the majority won't vote for them?

Because the idea here is that moderate dems will eventually skew left and that’s good enough so everybody has to kowtow to them because nobody is willing to be principled about anything.
She's not there to stay by her principles, she's there to get her bills passed congress to please her constituents. This isn't about "kowtowing" it's about a place of employment, which means getting your bosses and colleagues to work with you, if she can't do this she's not the champion you thought she was. That's literally the job of being a congresswoman.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,153
Denver
Do you want some change, or no change? She isn't in a position to override how this works. She's at the lowest position with very few allies, which will stay like that through her career unless she figures out how to use the system to work for her. The two are linked, to her detriment. Conforming is the nature of the beast in organisations, how do you expect her to bills if the majority won't vote for them?
Because at the end of the day, democracies are primarily about public opinion, not insider politics. Kissing ass isn't going to make the values and interests that drives politics change for anyone. Maybe you get an occasional tiny treat on some bills no one cares that much about, but that's it.

People being afraid of your twitter account is what real power is. That's how you get people to vote with you against their values. Allies naturally come through people who share your own values. Not very many people are going to sacrifice their own values over being personally offended. At least not the real weak offenses AOC has done.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
5,129
Her making enemies makes doing all that harder, not easier. This ins't about "crimes" it's about working in a work space which expects a certain custom to how they operate. Like all organisations. I don't see her liking her chief of staff making fun of her on twitter or alienating her and her interns, so why should that behaviour be ok in congress?



Do you want some change, or no change? She isn't in a position to override how this works. She's at the lowest position with very few allies, which will stay like that through her career unless she figures out how to use the system to work for her. The two are linked, to her detriment. Conforming is the nature of the beast in organisations, how do you expect her to bills if the majority won't vote for them?



She's not there to stay by her principles, she's there to get her bills passed congress to please her constituents. This isn't about "kowtowing" it's about a place of employment, which means getting your bosses and colleagues to work with you, if she can't do this she's not the champion you thought she was. That's literally the job of being a congresswoman.
She already conforms to the liberal causes the older Democrats barely pay lip service to. Some of you aren't simply telling Ocasio to not have her own opinion, you are telling your peers on resetera to eat shit.


Ocasio definitely needs to get legislative wins but she doesn't need to control her tone among "supposed" allies to the big picture.


If her and by extension the big picture view of certain restera members is too progressive for you then you have to explain why it is too leftist for you.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,998
The two are one in the same. How much change are you really doing when it's a prerequisite to conform to the will of everyone else already there before you get to do anything?
"Being able to work with the people your job makes you have to work with" doesn't mean "giving in and conforming"-- if you think it does there are several life lessons you've yet to learn. Congress is not a dictatorship.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
Because at the end of the day, democracies are primarily about public opinion, not insider politics. Kissing ass isn't going to make the values and interests that drives politics change for anyone. Maybe you get an occasional tiny treat on some bills no one cares that much about, but that's it.
Change is not monumental, it's slow. I wish it was easier to get quicker and broader changes but we don't live in that world. Public opinion matters a lot in politics, but it's not everything with being a politician. Like any job it starts in their office working with colleagues and bosses. We're not discussing how she interacts with the public, we're discussing what she is doing in congress. What her constituents spent time voting for to do. She's working side by side with average people, she's working with politicians. Which is insider politics. She's an insider now, that's the job.

People being afraid of your twitter account is what real power is. That's how you get people to vote with you against their values. Allies naturally come through people who share your own values. Not very many people are going to sacrifice their own values over being personally offended.
The problem here is all she has is sticks, when she needs carrots. Thats what Pelosi does, and she gets results. While you're not wrong that fear can help putting people in line, this is not only method to do it. Real power when it comes to congress is getting the votes to pass the bill we want, it remains to be seen that she can manage that. Who among the Dems which have criticised her have said they were going to vote for her based on this? Your assumption assumes she has numerous allies with these techniques, so where are they? There is an art to getting people to sacrifice for you, and in congress this is not the path to that destination. These are not young voters, they are experienced, old politicians. Know your audience.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,998
Not working as in people following the party line instead of representing the interests of the people, yes?

Which is what AOC supporters see in her, a willingness to put constituents over party "unity".
You just said you like her causing party division. That means you like her being in a position that splits the party and makes it completely dysfunctional-- the reason the Republicans have barely been able to accomplish anything at all despite having a fucking supermajority.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
She already conforms to the liberal causes the older Democrats barely pay lip service to. Some of you aren't simply telling Ocasio to not have her own opinion, you are telling your peers on resetera to eat shit.


Ocasio definitely needs to get legislative wins but she doesn't need to control her tone among "supposed" allies to the big picture.


If her and by extension the big picture view of certain restera members is too progressive for you then you have to explain why it is too leftist for you.
This isn't about you, me or posters on era. This is about a politician not thriving in a political organisation. This isn't about beliefs, it's about how to work with people in a work space and being able to navigate politics to get their goals achieved.

Controlling her tone makes it easier to get those legislative wins. She can't get the latter without the former.

This has nothing to do with how progressive we are, that's beside the point. She can be very progressive while not alienating her potential allies in congress. She has to, or she's not going to do anything worthy of note.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,955
Her making enemies makes doing all that harder, not easier. This ins't about "crimes" it's about working in a work space which expects a certain custom to how they operate. Like all organisations. I don't see her liking her chief of staff making fun of her on twitter or alienating her and her interns, so why should that behaviour be ok in congress?



Do you want some change, or no change? She isn't in a position to override how this works. She's at the lowest position with very few allies, which will stay like that through her career unless she figures out how to use the system to work for her. The two are linked, to her detriment. Conforming is the nature of the beast in organisations, how do you expect her to bills if the majority won't vote for them?



She's not there to stay by her principles, she's there to get her bills passed congress to please her constituents. This isn't about "kowtowing" it's about a place of employment, which means getting your bosses and colleagues to work with you, if she can't do this she's not the champion you thought she was. That's literally the job of being a congresswoman.
"Being able to work with the people your job makes you have to work with" doesn't mean "giving in and conforming"-- if you think it does there are several life lessons you've yet to learn. Congress is not a dictatorship.
But at this point AOC hasn’t said she won’t work with other house Dems. To her detractor colleagues’s credit they haven’t explicitly said as much either. So why all This talk that she is taking her ball and going home? Or that she will literally be unable to fulfill her duties as a congress rep at *checks notes* 7 days into the Congressional session?
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,998
This isn't about you, me or posters on era. This is about a politician not thriving in a political organisation. This isn't about beliefs, it's about how to work with people in a work space and being able to navigate politics to get their goals achieved.

Controlling her tone makes it easier to get those legislative wins. She can't get the latter without the former.

This has nothing to do with how progressive we are, that's beside the point. She can be very progressive while not alienating her potential allies in congress. She has to, or she's not going to do anything worthy of note.
If I could quote this post a bunch of times to agree with it without looking like an ass, I would. You've hit the nail on the head.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,831
You just said you like her causing party division. That means you like her being in a position that splits the party and makes it completely dysfunctional-- the reason the Republicans have barely been able to accomplish anything at all despite having a fucking supermajority.
They have already had two supreme court picks, potentially three. People looking at the Republicans going "oh they're so dysfunctional they can't get anything done" are not even considering the ramifications that this administration has created for us for the next 3 decades. They're not "accomplishing anything at all" and we're still so irrevocably fucked.

I would love to accomplish as little as them to be quite honest. It'd be much preferable to the current state of things where we have half of a branch, no Justice picks, no trade deals and no climate agreements.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,243
California
Said this in the other thread since this new call-out one was made. The ones here that are defending AOC like she can do no wrong are probably the same young voters that realized Republican party was comprised of a bunch of racists just within the past decade. A lot of you are naive as fuck. AOC needs to stay focused and not react to any little bullshit that is said about her.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,831
Said this in the other thread since this new call-out one was made. The ones here that are defending AOC like she can do no wrong are probably the same young voters that realized Republican party was comprised of a bunch of racists just within the past decade. A lot of you are naive as fuck. AOC needs to stay focused and not react to any little bullshit that is said about her.
What legislative victories has this strategy bought us since ACA in 2010?

"She's naive"
"She's inexperienced"
"She needs to stay in her lane"
"She needs to stay unified"
"She needs to stay focused"

What has being realistic, experienced, unified and focused given us so far? Fuck all.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
But at this point AOC hasn’t said she won’t work with other house Dems. To her detractor colleagues’s credit they haven’t explicitly said as much either. So why all This talk that she is taking her ball and going home? Or that she will literally be unable to fulfill her duties as a congress rep at *checks notes* 7 days into the Congressional session?
This is not something a promising politician faces when they walk in the door. Look at the implications, they have troubles with her and if she doesn't wise up they won't be voting for her. That's what on the line with this behaviour. It's a warning shot, the next may not be so friendly.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,998
They have already had two supreme court picks, potentially three. People looking at the Republicans going "oh they're so dysfunctional they can't get anything done" are not even considering the ramifications that this administration has created for us for the next 3 decades. They're not "accomplishing anything at all" and we're still so irrevocably fucked.

I would love to accomplish as little as them to be quite honest. It'd be much preferable to the current state of things where we have half of a branch, no Justice picks, no trade deals and no climate agreements.
it sounds like you think the president is the only person that matters in the political party
 
Said this in the other thread since this new call-out one was made. The ones here that are defending AOC like she can do no wrong are probably the same young voters that realized Republican party was comprised of a bunch of racists just within the past decade. A lot of you are naive as fuck. AOC needs to stay focused and not react to any little bullshit that is said about her.
Personally I think her twitter slams are hilarious. Isn’t what she’s doing just the new normal in this new Trumpian Rhetoric Age?
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,831
it sounds like you think the president is the only person that matters in the political party
I don't understand what you mean or what you're implying here. You think just because they're not passing their agenda left and right that it somehow makes our lives better? They got their tax cut and supreme court picks, those are wins for them in my book. They're certainly not our wins. Clearly someone is winning and it's probably Mitch the turtle.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,129
“Hey Ocasio! You’re one of the most popular new figures Democrats have had in years! Can you please stop doing everything you did to accomplish that?”

That’s what some of you sound like right now
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
I don't understand what you mean or what you're implying here. You think just because they're not passing their agenda left and right that it somehow makes our lives better? They got their tax cut and supreme court picks, those are wins for them in my book. They're certainly not our wins. Clearly someone is winning and it's probably Mitch the turtle.
They could be making everyone's lives a lot worse had they got proper leadership. Those were terrible wins, but if you want to the GOP in their peak see W.'s period. Had the public eating of their hand so badly Dems voted for what they said because it was political suicide not to. Dems need to have higher standard in governing, than Donald Trump. I expect better from AOC's leadership.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
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Oct 25, 2017
2,998
I don't understand what you mean or what you're implying here. You think just because they're not passing their agenda left and right that it somehow makes our lives better? They got their tax cut and supreme court picks, those are wins for them in my book. They're certainly not our wins. Clearly someone is winning and it's probably Mitch the turtle.
Of course they'd get the supreme court picks; those are a given with a republican controlled senate. That's a literal softball you're throwing. You hear 9000x more news about what they're NOT getting than what they are getting. And most of their victories are handed down to them by executive orders from the President's office erasing Obama's legacy. They have so many of those orders erasing Obama's legacy but it seems to me like that's their only real legacy. Because they're not getting anything done. With a supermajority. Sure, you can point to the tax cuts, but it's not impressive to pass a single piece of notable fucking legislation over a, what, three year term so far?


Definitely not. Sorry if I sounded like that.

My post was worded poorly.
Thinking it's hillarious and just the new normal is a tacit endorsement. I don't think your post was just worded poorly, I think the ideology behind it is fundamentally flawed in ways you probably don't realize were actually implied in what you said.
 
Of course they'd get the supreme court picks; those are a given with a republican controlled senate. That's a literal softball you're throwing. You hear 9000x more news about what they're NOT getting than what they are getting. And most of their victories are handed down to them by executive orders from the President's office erasing Obama's legacy. They have so many of those orders erasing Obama's legacy but it seems to me like that's their only real legacy. Because they're not getting anything done. With a supermajority. Sure, you can point to the tax cuts, but it's not impressive to pass a single piece of fucking legislation over a, what, three year term so far?




Thinking it's hillarious and just the new normal is a tacit endorsement. I don't think your post was just worded poorly, I think the ideology behind it is fundamentally flawed in ways you probably don't realize were actually implied in what you said.
My personal opinion is that “taking the high road” has failed. It sucks, but it seems like Trump’s victory has “changed the game.”

When people come at AOC on twitter I’m glad she defends herself.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
Now is not to the time to *refers to notes* galvanize the usually political-apathetic youth by speaking truth to power using the language of their generation.
The question is - can she do that and be an accomplished congresswoman? Do you want her to say things you agree with, or to achieve the things in congress she was elected for? You might not get both.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,998
My personal opinion is that “taking the high road” has failed. It sucks, but it seems like Trump’s victory has “changed the game.”

When people come at AOC on twitter I’m glad she defends herself.
It's failed because people like you and me let it fail.

Trump's shit is the new normal. Either we can adapt to that and use it to our advantage, or we can continue pretending things like "decorum" is something that matters to anyone besides lanyard wearing weirdos in DC.
The drawbacks of letting Trump's shit become normal are far greater than any positives we might extract from it. If we're becoming like them I think that's a serious mistake.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,831
I expect better from AOC's leadership.
She's a congresswoman in her second week on the job. "AOC's leadership'" jesus. You'd think she was already in the Oval Office going by her critics here.
Of course they'd get the supreme court picks; those are a given with a republican controlled senate. That's a literal softball you're throwing. You hear 9000x more news about what they're NOT getting than what they are getting. And most of their victories are handed down to them by executive orders from the President's office erasing Obama's legacy. They have so many of those orders erasing Obama's legacy but it seems to me like that's their only real legacy. Because they're not getting anything done. With a supermajority. Sure, you can point to the tax cuts, but it's not impressive to pass a single piece of fucking legislation over a, what, three year term so far?
I don't really care about shit like "legacy" and PR wins or whatever the fuck. I only care about the human costs of this administration, now and in the future. Just because they're not doing as much damage as they could be doesn't negate the damage they are doing in the slightest, nor is it any comfort to me. The Trump Presidency being generally lame duck is not really a consolation prize worth speaking of. I'd give anything to have a lame duck Hillary presidency instead.
 
Oct 31, 2018
133
People are constantly surprised by her behavior, but as a fellow/ ex-bronxite she's basically normal. We're super blunt, up front and can be confrontational, but when you grow up around that kind of area, those are traits you need to survive and make friends and make ends meet. Demographics in other parts of the country worry so much about decorum, instead of understanding that it's terrible and dishonest. AOC glides past the BS, because she's got better things to do, and that's what scares people.

It's refreshing and the more I hear about her the more it inspires me to want to run for a public office because we need more of her, not less
That explains alot actually, my dad is usually like that. On topic, I'm not surprised that the older, more conservative/right leaning dems are afraid of her since she represents a generational shift that they can't understand or don't want to work with.
 

Kitsunelaine

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Oct 25, 2017
2,998
I don't really care about shit like "legacy" and PR wins or whatever the fuck. I only care about the human costs of this administration, now and in the future. Just because they're not doing as much damage as they could be doesn't negate the damage they are doing in the slightest, nor is it any comfort to me. The Trump Presidency being generally lame duck is not really a consolation prize worth speaking of. I'd give anything to have a lame duck Hillary presidency instead.
And nobody has said that they aren't doing massive damage. The point is that they're doing that in spite of themselves.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,597
The question is - can she do that and be an accomplished congresswoman? Do you want her to say things you agree with, or to achieve the things in congress she was elected for? You might not get both.
I think most of us already know we aren't going to get both. However, we appreciate her tenacity, passion, and authenticity
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,831
The point is that they're doing that in spite of themselves.
Why should this matter to me? Why does it matter to you? Damage is damage. Human lives are human lives.

Wait do you think they're doing damage because they're dysfunctional or do you think they're doing damage because they're a bunch of low-key/overt white nationalists?

Is the worry here that Ocasio-Cortez is going to bring some of that dysfunction to the Dems? Talk about counting chickens before they hatch. We don't even have a majority anywhere except the House and you're fretting over the potential downsides of disunity due to AOC and her wing.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
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Oct 25, 2017
2,998
Why should this matter to me? Why does it matter to you? Damage is damage. Human lives are human lives.
It should matter if you are interested in fixing this shit and care about an effective government.

We don't even have a majority anywhere except the House and you're fretting over the potential downsides of disunity due to AOC and her wing.
d-do you know what the house does and why this shit is even important long-term? The fact that we don't have a supermajority now doesn't mean we won't in, say, 2020. In which this will still be important.
 
Dec 26, 2018
912
I think most of us already know we aren't going to get both. However, we appreciate her tenacity, passion, and authenticity
Which is good, being tenacious is something which can be necessary. What hurts her cause is when it's not in the right place or right time. She's got a job to do. Do you want her to do that job?

Why should this matter to me? Why does it matter to you? Damage is damage. Human lives are human lives.
How is AOC alienating her own party going to save lives? It'd do the opposite. She can't help anybody by getting her bills being voted down, or not getting leadership positions.