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Democrats to AOC "You aren't supposed to go after other Democrats" as they hope to get her to fall into line

Oct 25, 2017
1,473
But my point is that's generally not what's happening when the phrase is thrown around. You can say that that's the way those words typically have been used in the past and people would pretty much agree, but post-2016 they've become go-to insults to anybody who doesn't fall 100% in line with the Justice Democrats or the Democratic Socialists of America or Bernie Sanders-- basically anything in that particular sphere of influence. It's, "You're not as pure as I am and therefore you're worthless"-- where pure is defined entirely by conformity to the speaker's political identity as opposed to the previously extant meaning.
I won't deny that some people have misused it in the past, but there is still merit to the word and it is wrong to try and present it as an empty and meaningless buzzword when there is a perfectly good reason for people to be using it. As it stands, it became a go-to insult after 2016 for a very good reason!
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
Which is why I don't understand the concern trolls coming in here in droves saying "she better learn or else!!!!!!!". AOC is absolutely tame, particularly when it comes to challenging moderate Dems.
If she's got them all in a tizzy already, then they better buckle in over the next decade because there's going to be even tougher ones than her coming up the pipeline.
Well, when a 20-something freshman comes along who wants to be seated in Congressional committees, is stealing airtime and the public consciousness, and is making demands of someone like Pelosi (which she eventually backed down from, to her credit) older hands in the party aren't going to have it. It's not necessarily that her policy opinions are that outlandish, but it's the fact that she has to take some time on the job she was just elected for and start building credibility. There is no shortcut to that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
524
All that Politico story tells me is that if Democrats ever get a DDD trifecta again, they are going to piss it away again trying to compromise withe the GOP/be influenced by their donors.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,070
Well, when a 20-something freshman comes along who wants to be seated in Congressional committees, is stealing airtime and the public consciousness, and is making demands of someone like Pelosi (which she eventually backed down from, to her credit) older hands in the party aren't going to have it. It's not necessarily that her policy opinions are that outlandish, but it's the fact that she has to take some time on the job she was just elected for and start building credibility. There is no shortcut to that.
"stealing airtime and public consciousness" is absolutely stellar bullshit dude, props for that
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,418
I wan't MORE democrats like AOC. Cause she is right. The democrats have plenty of their own problems. I'll still never get over Nancy Pelosi's reaction to AOC winning. She brushed AOC off so hard it was a real head turning moment for me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,161
Denver
This a minority opinion here at ERA but I believe centrists are the one who win presidential elections and flip enough seats for Dems to prevent their from being a coastal only party. And yes I’m centrist in my views so that is a ofcourse contributing to this opinion. Without centrist voters and politicians, Democratic Support would be a few point higher than the Green Party
Centrist dems have already drove the party to being coastal only, and coastal centrists certainly aren't going to bring them back. I don't think any wing of the party has an answer for that.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,761
Well these things don't work in a vacuum. Wouldn't have happened if Democrat voters were less than enthusiastic among other things.
In the context of this thread, this politician, and the 2018/2020 elections...I'm not seeing your point.

AOC has been a lightning rod of Dem enthusiasm. Enthusiastic people vote. Dems who agree with AOC that the system is currently broken and needs a shakeup, will vote in 2020. Attempting to stifle that enthusiasm before it gets 'out of line' is a mistake.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,876
This is like when businesses face a new competitor and instead of trying to compete they tell the competitor to stop being disruptive.

That’s the DNC these days. An old company stuck in its ways, refusing to evolve, and always wondering why people support the new company instead of them.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,640
Let’s all remember that freshmen are supposed to telemarketers

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...es-fundraising-demands-turning-lawmakers-into

The House member told “60 Minutes” he sat behind closed doors with party leadership, where he was told he had six months to raise $2 million.

“Your job, new member of Congress, is to raise $18,000 a day. Your first responsibility is to make sure you hit $18,000 a day,” he said he was told.

To do so, he said, members of Congress are given lists of names and scripts. Because members aren’t allowed to fundraise on Capitol grounds, the campaign arms of the parties have setup call bank headquarters near the Capitol, where members can duck in to to spend a few hours on the phone.
That’s what they mean when they say she has a lot to learn
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,647
USA
Well, when a 20-something freshman comes along who wants to be seated in Congressional committees, is stealing airtime and the public consciousness, and is making demands of someone like Pelosi (which she eventually backed down from, to her credit) older hands in the party aren't going to have it. It's not necessarily that her policy opinions are that outlandish, but it's the fact that she has to take some time on the job she was just elected for and start building credibility. There is no shortcut to that.
Democrats should be thanking their fucking stars that people are paying attention to AOC, because who the fuck wants to watch Pelosi or Schumer or almost anyone else in the party talk their tame nonsense on TV?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,473
Centrist dems have already drove the party to being coastal only, and coastal centrists certainly aren't going to bring them back. I don't think any wing of the party has an answer for that.
It was also centrists that thought it was more important to reach across the aisle and try and attract moderates/center right voters in red states than it was to actually shore up support in blue states that were in the process of swinging. 2016 happened for a lot of reasons that you can't pin down any one reason, but that absolutely contributed to the state of today.

That said, even if no wing of the party has an answer for that, nurturing people like AOC is certainly going to be critical in finding that answer and in solving the party's other problem of figuring out the next generation of leaders.
 
Oct 28, 2017
524
"stealing airtime and public consciousness" is absolutely stellar bullshit dude, props for that
I scratched my head when I read that. How is AOC "stealing airtime and the public consciousness?" She's mostly been defending herself from ridiculous attacks from the right and enthusiastically advocating for policies she ran on. Hell, half the attention she gets would be cut in half if the right didn't have derangement syndrome about AOC.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,005
You taking my quote out of context and twisting it into something I didn't say is also very telling.
As someone who agrees with your original meaning, I would cautiously advise you that you didn't really put it across that well; so it's easy to twist into something you didn't say. (Especially if a person only gave it half a glance.)
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
"stealing airtime and public consciousness" is absolutely stellar bullshit dude, props for that
Notice you didn't bother to respond to my earlier post... I'd imagine it's because you don't have an answer.

I scratched my head when I read that. How is AOC "stealing airtime and the public consciousness?" She's mostly been defending herself from ridiculous attacks from the right and enthusiastically advocating for policies she ran on. Hell, half the attention she gets would be cut in half if the right didn't have derangement syndrome about AOC.
Not my fault you don't seem to follow the news. She's been a topic of conversation since her win in the NY primary... Not necessarily of her own doing, but the 'is this the future of the Democratic party' stories have been coming out consistently since then. And if you all you read/see is her defending herself against her critics, diversify your news sources a bit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,168
As someone who agrees with your original meaning, I would cautiously advise you that you didn't really put it across that well; so it's easy to twist into something you didn't say.
I was pretty clear about the specificity of the usage.
It's not "ERA's", its lefties who use it as a slur against anyone to the right of "overthrow capitalism."
I said a certain type of poster uses it as a slur, not that it inherently was a slur.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,005
I was pretty clear about the specificity of the usage.

I said a certain type of poster uses it as a slur, not that it inherently was a slur.
I would personally have avoided the word "slur" all together-- it reminds me too much of people trying to say "TERF is a slur". In it's place I'd have put something like insult, but maybe insult is too weak for the way people tend to use it to dismiss others and invalidate them entirely.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,070
Notice you didn't bother to respond to my earlier post... I'd imagine it's because you don't have an answer.
sorry i didn't know you were expecting a reply but i don't think it's worth my time

i was just laughing at the idea that this woman who's been thrust into the spotlight and has been dealing with it with remarkable charisma and grace has "stolen" attention away from the widely hated bloodless vampires who make up most of congress

if it helps feel free to think you won whatever argument is going on in your head
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,168
You still aren't quite helping yourself here by dying on the hill of using the term "slur"
Why would need help when there's nothing wrong with the statement?

It's used as an insult, invective, etc. (whatever you want to call it) by some rather than being used as a boring neutral descriptor the way it's used everywhere else.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
sorry i didn't know you were expecting a reply but i don't think it's worth my time

i was just laughing at the idea that this woman who's been thrust into the spotlight and has been dealing with it with remarkable charisma and grace has "stolen" attention away from the widely hated bloodless vampires who make up most of congress
So that I understand correctly: A response as to why your ridiculous worldview is childish and likely currently impossible to bring to fruition 'isn't worth your time'.

Are you just screaming at the clouds then or something?

When do we want change?? NOW!!

How are we gonna get it?? .... More details on that later!

It's childish. I'd like to actually hear how you think we can make any appreciable changes without getting more people elected to office. Even the dreaded centrists!

PS- That wasn't written from my perspective, but from those who have been on the hill for decades. Some of which are actually trying to change things, if it's possible for the evil centrists to even do such a thing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,473
Why would need help when there's nothing wrong with the statement?

It's used as an insult, invective, etc. (whatever you want to call it) by some rather than being used as a boring neutral descriptor the way it's used everywhere else.
Because, if you go beyond the textbook definition of the term, "slur" as a term carries certain emotional connotations that make you look off for trying to say that somebody using centrist to describe you is a "slur"

Looking a few posts up, you have people in this very thread who otherwise agree with your general point who are saying that you should reconsider using that term because it makes you look worse. You should consider listening to them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,647
USA
Why would need help when there's nothing wrong with the statement?

It's used as an insult, invective, etc. (whatever you want to call it) by some rather than being used as a boring neutral descriptor the way it's used everywhere else.
I am not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,070
So that I understand correctly: A response as to why your ridiculous worldview is childish and likely currently impossible to bring to fruition 'isn't worth your time'.

Are you just screaming at the clouds then or something?

When do we want change?? NOW!!

How are we gonna get it?? .... More details on that later!

It's childish. I'd like to actually hear how you think we can make any appreciable changes without getting more people elected to office. Even the dreaded centrists!
what i think is that convincing you is irrelevant and whatever happens on resetera matters not even slightly.

i post here to kill time when work is slow. none of this is political action and if i don't reply to you it's because i don't care. feel free to block me if that bothers you.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
what i think is that convincing you is irrelevant and whatever happens on resetera matters not even slightly.

i post here to kill time when work is slow. none of this is political action and if i don't reply to you it's because i don't care. feel free to block me if that bothers you.
Nah, I'm gonna press you on this.

Take as much time as you need. I'd love a well-thought response to my question. You obviously want real change... Great. I agree.

How do you get there?

"We don't have the time to wait for changes to our climate policy" isn't an actual solution. This is a forum, where people exchange ideas. Why not actually share them?
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,168
I am not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
Because there's "centrist" in the way most people use it regarding politics, someone who's to the right of the Dem caucus or left of the GOP caucus on economic issues, and is a neutral descriptor.

And then there's "centrist" in the way a subset of far-lefties use it, which is to refer to anyone on the left half of the axis who isn't all the way to "capitalism needs to be replaced", and is often used as a perjorative.

And understanding that there's two wildly different definitions at play is critical to understand why people are talking past each other when the term gets used.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,070
Nah, I'm gonna press you on this.

Take as much time as you need. I'd love a well-thought response to my question. You obviously want real change... Great. I agree.

How do you get there?

"We don't have the time to wait for changes to our climate policy" isn't an actual solution. This is a forum, where people exchange ideas. Why not actually share them?
is it my job to come up with the nitty gritty details on committee assignments and legalese? what the party has been doing for the last few decades hasn't worked, and what AOC is doing now seems like a better way forward. call me idealistic or stupid if you like but appealing to the utter disaster that is the political status quo has no purchase with me at all.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,647
USA
Because there's "centrist" in the way most people use it regarding politics, someone who's to the right of the Dem caucus or left of the GOP caucus on economic issues, and is a neutral descriptor.

And then there's "centrist" in the way a subset of far-lefties use it, which is to refer to anyone on the left half of the axis who isn't all the way to "capitalism needs to be replaced", and is often used as a perjorative.

And understanding that there's two wildly different definitions at play is critical to understand why people are talking past each other when the term gets used.
Yes, you are right. The same word can have different meanings in different contexts. But again, this is known and you're not even saying anything meaningful at all. If you take offense to people being labeled as centrist I don't really know what to tell you.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,005
is it my job to come up with the nitty gritty details on committee assignments and legalese? what the party has been doing for the last few decades hasn't worked, and what AOC is doing now seems like a better way forward. call me idealistic or stupid if you like but appealing to the utter disaster that is the political status quo has no purchase with me at all.
"having ways to do things hasn't worked" is a galaxy brain take if i've ever seen it
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,178
Nah, I'm gonna press you on this.

Take as much time as you need. I'd love a well-thought response to my question. You obviously want real change... Great. I agree.

How do you get there?

"We don't have the time to wait for changes to our climate policy" isn't an actual solution. This is a forum, where people exchange ideas. Why not actually share them?
You know he's lambasting you over specifically the "stealing airtime" line right? Because it is a stupid line because half the reason she's on the air so much is because the Republicans are desperate to find mud to sling at her.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
is it my job to come up with the nitty gritty details on committee assignments and legalese? what the party has been doing for the last few decades hasn't worked, and what AOC is doing now seems like a better way forward. call me idealistic or stupid if you like but appealing to the utter disaster that is the political status quo has no purchase with me at all.
That's fair. The status quo has not been working.

But at some point we're gonna have to come to some kind of solution or, as a country, we will get further and further away from the country you want to see.

So until that solution requires something other than stacking the odds of success on the side of the party that mostly agrees with your principles, I don't see another solution. If you have one, I would very much like to hear it. You need the Joe Manchins as much as you need the Ocasio-Cortezes of the party to move forward, as far as I can see it.

You know he's lambasting you over specifically the "stealing airtime" line right? Because it is a stupid line because half the reason she's on the air so much is because the Republicans are desperate to find mud to sling at her.
Okay, I'll answer this again. She has been in the news since her improbable victory in the NY primary. That was long before she took office and the GOP used her as their new favorite target.

I can reach back into the recesses of my mind farther than 2 weeks ago. Can anyone else?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,161
Denver
It was also centrists that thought it was more important to reach across the aisle and try and attract moderates/center right voters in red states than it was to actually shore up support in blue states that were in the process of swinging. 2016 happened for a lot of reasons that you can't pin down any one reason, but that absolutely contributed to the state of today.

That said, even if no wing of the party has an answer for that, nurturing people like AOC is certainly going to be critical in finding that answer and in solving the party's other problem of figuring out the next generation of leaders.
And center left means a lot of different things, from the labor protectionist rust belt to the leftist libertarian southwest to the corporatist technocrats of the mid atlantic. But it's always the corporate technocrats that get to present as the nation's center.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,070
That's fair. The status quo has not been working.

But at some point we're gonna have to come to some kind of solution or, as a country, we will get further and further away from the country you want to see.

So until that solution requires something other than stacking the odds of success on the side of the party that mostly agrees with your principles, I don't see another solution. If you have one, I would very much like to hear it. You need the Joe Manchins as much as you need the Ocasio-Cortezes of the party to move forward, as far as I can see it.
well personally i think the long-term solutions involve grassroots organization and direct action way more than they do the low-rent game of thrones we have in DC and i'm mostly into AOC because she seems to understand and feed into that
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,005
well personally i think the long-term solutions involve grassroots organization and direct action way more than they do the low-rent game of thrones we have in DC and i'm mostly into AOC because she seems to understand and feed into that
That's what got Trump elected. And his government has been an absolute failure. You can't elect someone who only knows how to bloviate.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,164
She should stick to her style, not fall in line. The fact she's ruffling feathers even within Democrats is good. Politicians don't need to be duller than a butter knife. In fact more people now are angry and want something different. The Dems need more like her.

Also makes me laugh to think people want her to fall in line. Please, have these people ever met a Latin American woman. She's going to march to the beat of her own drum just out of spite because they are trying to tell her what to do
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,473
That's fair. The status quo has not been working.

But at some point we're gonna have to come to some kind of solution or, as a country, we will get further and further away from the country you want to see.

So until that solution requires something other than stacking the odds of success on the side of the party that mostly agrees with your principles, I don't see another solution. If you have one, I would very much like to hear it. You need the Joe Manchins as much as you need the Ocasio-Cortezes of the party to move forward, as far as I can see it.
The problem is that this kind of pragmatism was commonly talked about in 2016, and it ultimately didn't work. At some point, you just have to recognize when you need to be focusing your efforts elsewhere.

We need to focus on more people like AOC and less on people like Manchin in the long run. One is the future of the party, while one is a regrettable holding pattern from a much worse era.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,310
well personally i think the long-term solutions involve grassroots organization and direct action way more than they do the low-rent game of thrones we have in DC and i'm mostly into AOC because she seems to understand and feed into that
Hey, if we can get more people like AOC into Congress great. I'm all for that.

But let's not lose sight of the the fact that:

A) She won a primary in which her opponent didn't even show up to the debates... He sent a surrogate. He didn't even bother to campaign. To her credit, she was on the ground dong work.
B) A fair amount of the country does not align with her political/economic ideals. These are areas of the country that we need Democratic representatives from regardless
C) We have yet to see how successful she will be as a voice for this change yet. I'm pulling for her, but she has to work within the system that has bred decades of inaction. That's hard, and IMO at the very least you're going to need overwhelming majorities in all branches of government to get anything done. How we get to those majorities is a fair subject of debate.

The problem is that this kind of pragmatism was commonly talked about in 2016, and it ultimately didn't work. At some point, you just have to recognize when you need to be focusing your efforts elsewhere.

We need to focus on more people like AOC and less on people like Manchin in the long run. One is the future of the party, while one is a regrettable holding pattern from a much worse era.
That may very well be the case. in 2018, the DNC tried to run the right candidates for the right districts... To overwhelming success. Would I use the Manchins as the face of the party? Of course not. But we need to see how this movement is going to fare before going all in... Most of the Justice Democrats did not win their races. Maybe the country is not yet ready for the AOCs of the world.