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Ganransu

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,270
People should start voting with their wallets more, shame gamers struggle to do that
They should also make it heard that they're voting for better work conditions, and not that the game isn't what they want. I mean, if you only stop buying the game, they would just take that as we don't want what they're selling and not because we don't want to buy games made in that kind of work environment.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Oh yeh I know all this. I personally feel like it is a problem because progression can be a slow and grindy slog if there's a particular list of cars that you want to buy and upgrade. If you're happy to take whatever you're given via wheelspins and/or you get lucky then you likely won't see it as any issue and you can happily get by without the VIP. But for me personally... I caved and bought the ultimate edition partly because I'd like to enjoy the time I spend with the game rather than waste my time grinding away in order to have the privilege of playing it on my own terms.

And that's the key thing to understand with all of this, these microtransactions/lootboxes/xp savers/whatever else are not made to be targeted at everyone. They know that they are pushing the buttons of a certain type of player in order to persuade them to part with more cash. That's why they exist. I know for a fact before even playing Odyssey that the xp grind won't bother me. I enjoyed that part of it in Origins and grinding does not tend to bother me in RPG's provided the activities you do when grinding are fun and/or feel meaningful in the context of the game world, but that does not mean I can't see the inclusion of an XP booster as a problem.

So for someone to say "it doesn't effect me" and handwave these practices away... they are missing the point. We need to ask the question of why these things need to exist in the first place.

Yeah, that's all good, man. I'm just making sure that folks making the argument are making it about everything. I'm actually fine with Jim because he's unerringly consistent.

What bothers me are folks who hate micros, but when it comes to their favorite game, they're fine. I'm personally all about implementation, but if you're steadfastly against, but against them. (Not talking you specifically, just in general.)

For some, Odyssey is a problem and Forza Horizon 4 isn't, which is perplexing, as they have the same type of microtransaction in the end.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
So, I actually looked up the annual income statement of Ubisoft that they released in March 2018 and there income was about 215 million euros. I couldn't find the breakdown of sales, its probably in the report but I just cant be arsed with reading through the whole document. According to GameSpot Ubisoft made 315 million euros from "player recurring investments" which I think means micro-transactions during the same time. So if that is accurate, that means without microtransactions Ubisoft would have posted a loss for the year. I don't know if I am reading this correctly but if someone can double check for me that would be great. Here's my sources:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ubisoft-makes-a-lot-of-money-from-microtransaction/1100-6456734/
https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/annual_report.aspx
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,333
I'm just gonna say if half of you had the disdain for MTX that you have for tipping then MTX in games would be gone by the end of the week.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,228
I love how it's considered 'smart' to boost your funds by waiting for sales or buy games you like when they hit bargain basement prices...yet devs and publishers trying to maximize profits is termed 'greed'.

We've also got the usual fallacy of citing only the big games likes of EA, Activision and Ubisoft when talking about AAA games. What of AAA games thatve failed without the security of the FIFA, COD and Assassins Creed fan base/IP?
This has to be a joke. No way you are making a serious point.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,946
So, I actually looked up the annual income statement of Ubisoft that they released in March 2018 and there income was about 215 million euros. I couldn't find the breakdown of sales, its probably in the report but I just cant be arsed with reading through the whole document. According to GameSpot Ubisoft made 315 million euros from "player recurring investments" which I think means micro-transactions during the same time. So if that is accurate, that means without microtransactions Ubisoft would have posted a loss for the year. I don't know if I am reading this correctly but if someone can double check for me that would be great. Here's my sources:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ubisoft-makes-a-lot-of-money-from-microtransaction/1100-6456734/
https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/annual_report.aspx
I talked about the earnings reports earlier. Some (not you) don't want to look at data though, because it conflicts with their pre-conceived narrative.
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
I'm down for unionization but that won't abolish microtransactions lol.

But that's ok. Jim doesn't need to provide solutions when he can just jump between any and all possible grievences with total disregard for logical consistency. He feeds people what they want to hear.
 

Deleted member 8408

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
Yeah, that's all good, man. I'm just making sure that folks making the argument are making it about everything. I'm actually fine with Jim because he's unerringly consistent.

What bothers me are folks who hate micros, but when it comes to their favorite game, they're fine. I'm personally all about implementation, but if you're steadfastly against, but against them. (Not talking you specifically, just in general.)

For some, Odyssey is a problem and Forza Horizon 4 isn't, which is perplexing, as they have the same type of microtransaction in the end.

I'm not a particularly big fan of Jim's style but I'll always give him credit for the messages he puts across and his consistency. We need more people like him in the games journalism space (in terms of talking about thus stuff and being consistent about it).

It's telling that him and SkillUp are the only two people I've come across who I can rely on (maybe I'm not looking in the right places?) to tell me what microtransactions/DLC model a game has, how it does/doesn't effect the gameplay loop and which type of player they are potentially targeting with all of this. Every other journalist skimps over it or doesn't mention it at all and I can't quite understand why when these things are becoming more prevalent and intrusive with each passing year. Battlefront was a one off because it was so bad that if you weren't talking about it then there was clearly something wrong, but for the vast majority of other games it's met with a shrug and a "that's just how it is these days".

And that's what irks me, it doesn't have to be like this. Surely there is a more ethical way for the publishers/developers to get extra money rather than psychologically manipulating and targeting a particular type of customer to open their wallet once more and part with more cash? Most of these big publishers now hire/contract teams of phycologists to figure out how to tap into certain areas of gamers brains to get them to buy all of this extra stuff or for them to feel trapped in a loop where the only way out is to buy this extra stuff. It gets so bad in some instances that you hear of kids who don't know any better spending exorbitant amounts of money on their parents credit cards or fully grown adults going into debt because of microtransactions/lootboxes.

So it's easy for some people to sit here and say "it's ok because games are expensive to make", or "it's ok because we get free post-launch content", or "games have stayed $60 for a while and I'd like it to stay that way". Yes, all of these things can be true dependant in the game in question, but at what cost?
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
I talked about the earnings reports earlier. Some (not you) don't want to look at data though, because it conflicts with their pre-conceived narrative.
Wow, your post got totally ignored. I feel like the notion that microtransactions are being implemented simply out of greed are misguided, it really seems like microtransactions are an integral part of keeping the company open nowadays. I would like more users to chime in to the actual data being presented rather than the rhetoric.
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
this all makes me very happy that I mostly play indie and/or AA-ish games with, at worst, a couple of items of DLC. I'll take Dungeon of the Endless and Dragonfall over ACO or GTA allll yeaaarrr lonnggg.
 

Calverz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,586
Id have more respect for people moaning about this if they boycotted the games. Instead of posting in a forum and then waiting for their pre order of RDR2 to be delivered.
 

Meatwad

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,653
USA
I love how it's considered 'smart' to boost your funds by waiting for sales or buy games you like when they hit bargain basement prices...yet devs and publishers trying to maximize profits is termed 'greed'.

We've also got the usual fallacy of citing only the big games likes of EA, Activision and Ubisoft when talking about AAA games. What of AAA games thatve failed without the security of the FIFA, COD and Assassins Creed fan base/IP?

I love when people try to defend massive corporations by blaming consumers.
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
I talked about the earnings reports earlier. Some (not you) don't want to look at data though, because it conflicts with their pre-conceived narrative.

I need to double check figures, but Jim's language seems to reference revenue, not profit. Remember that profit, which is what I think you're reading, is usually minus operating costs. Therefore, that total includes what the company pulls after all of its employees are paid.

I'm not sure how any of this conflicts with Jim's narrative, seeing as one of his major complaints is the way that executives get paid, and also the way the pay structure in the system inherently favors MTX because, after paying CEOs boatloads of money, it still looks like you need MTX to make up for really shit margins.

Am I wrong?
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,203
"It's just horse armor, no one is forcing you to buy it and it doesn't hurt anyone".

-Some extremely deluded person circa 2006.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
I talked about the earnings reports earlier. Some (not you) don't want to look at data though, because it conflicts with their pre-conceived narrative.

Yeah. You made one of the best posts here, with hard data and sound analysis to back it up. People deliberately ignored it to focus on attacking people for opposing views.

I love when people try to defend massive corporations by blaming consumers.

Nothing about my comment is 'attacking consumers '. Cheers!
 

Radishhead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,568
People love Jim Sterling until he points out the greedy microtransaction-focused design of games they like.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,338
London
This isn't a publisher problem. This is a company problem and developers are also companies with management, executives and other as well. It's why Quantic Dream, Naughty Dog and many other companies have problems in different levels even though they aren't publishers.
Yes, the problem is wider than just publishers, but developers and publishers don't have an equal bargaining position.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,338
London
Every other journalist skimps over it or doesn't mention it at all and I can't quite understand why when these things are becoming more prevalent and intrusive with each passing year. Battlefront was a one off because it was so bad that if you weren't talking about it then there was clearly something wrong, but for the vast majority of other games it's met with a shrug and a "that's just how it is these days"
Becsuse much of games journalism acts as an extension of publishers' marketing departments. Most of it isn't really journalism at all, and I speak as a former journalist. There's a reason Jason Schreier stands out a mile: he's an actual journalist, who doesn't just regurgitate press releases.

Games journalism as a whole is way too close to its subject, and this is just one example of how the industry is, in many respects, immature.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
the fact that there is even an argument in this thread proves that the marketing has worked. If you move the goalposts an change what is acceptable over time to consumers, they will end up defending egregious practices that were originally never supposed to exist in games to begin with

I mean, no, not really. As I've said, I've barely touched microtransactions despite playing many games that have them.

Yet for me, I can understand why monetisation is desired or sometimes necessary from a business perspective. Not because of marketing but because I actually work in this industry.

There are clearly publishers and developers who take the piss and that should absolutely be called out, but alternate revenue streams are fine as far as I'm concerned.

What I'm starting to dislike is how people here paint any one who doesn't agree with Jim's tired narrative as a corporate apologist, defence force, victim or all sorts of accusative names. Some of you really need to get some perspective.

And for all the people agreeing with Jim, why is no one offering solutions? All I keep seeing is yup, agree with Jim, fuck AAA and the people that defend this. Where are the solutions?

In lieu of monetisation how would you continue to bring in revenue to big companies like EA and Ubisoft outside of boxed products and merchandising?

Good video and hopefully Jim and others stuff keep calling this stuff out.

Thread is pretty enbarsssing with all the apologists but after that Assassins Creed thread not really that surprising.

Text book example. Agrees with Jim, insults anyone with a differing opinions and offers up no solution. Like clock work.
 

AGoodODST

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
Good video and hopefully Jim and others stuff keep calling this stuff out.

Thread is pretty embarrassing with all the apologists but after that Assassins Creed thread not really that surprising.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
And for all the people agreeing with Jim, why is no one offering solutions? All I keep seeing is yup, agree with Jim, fuck AAA and the people that defend this. Where are the solutions?

I didn't realize that ensuring triple figure revenue numbers was a problem to be solved. I don't think there is an easy solution for companies like EA and Ubisoft - most of the shitty and problematic behavior is all down to making sure that they've registered year over year growth for their shareholders. If that means nickel and diming their way to success, or exploiting lootboxes, so be it.

I'd suggest regular expansion packs, with actual gameplay content, but we all know thats nowhere as profitable as charging for premium skins and lootbox keys. What a dilemma!

I think the current AAA model is not sustainable, and we're all paying the price for this idiocy.
 

Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
I didn't realize that ensuring triple figure revenue numbers was a problem to be solved. I don't think there is an easy solution for companies like EA and Ubisoft - most of the shitty and problematic behavior is all down to making sure that they've registered year over year growth for their shareholders. If that means nickel and diming their way to success, or exploiting lootboxes, so be it.

I'd suggest regular expansion packs, with actual gameplay content, but we all know thats nowhere as profitable as charging for premium skins and lootbox keys. What a dilemma!

I think the current AAA model is not sustainable, and we're all paying the price for this idiocy.

I like that you put "regular expansion packs" as your solution to the AAA model not being sustainable.

I'm guessing you put out fires with gasoline as well.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
I didn't realize that ensuring triple figure revenue numbers was a problem to be solved. I don't think there is an easy solution for companies like EA and Ubisoft - most of the shitty and problematic behavior is all down to making sure that they've registered year over year growth for their shareholders. If that means nickel and diming their way to success, or exploiting lootboxes, so be it.

I'd suggest regular expansion packs, with actual gameplay content, but we all know thats nowhere as profitable as charging for premium skins and lootbox keys. What a dilemma!

I think the current AAA model is not sustainable, and we're all paying the price for this idiocy.

No but, let's be realistic for a second. The world we live in means that companies/corporations/conglomerates are driven by profits and growth. Unless we were to move away from our current capitalist system then this will always be the case.

Taking that into account, monetisation and the quest to earn money beyond what is 'needed' to keep a company running is the reality of the situation. In lieu of microtransactions, what high margin revenue strategy do all of those agreeing with Jim suggest?

Because the alternative is for these companies to significantly downsize and stop making big games, or for capitalism to die in a fire. None of those things are happening. When I'm here supposedly 'defending' these practices, I'm merely accepting the realities of the industry and big business as a whole. What I think is a more interesting discussion is ways to monetise and generate revenue in less predatory ways, rather than shouting into the ether about how much I hate monetisation and insulting anyone who doesn't agree with me.

Am I being unreasonable, unfair, unbalanced? I don't think so.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,841
Netherlands
So, I actually looked up the annual income statement of Ubisoft that they released in March 2018 and there income was about 215 million euros. I couldn't find the breakdown of sales, its probably in the report but I just cant be arsed with reading through the whole document. According to GameSpot Ubisoft made 315 million euros from "player recurring investments" which I think means micro-transactions during the same time. So if that is accurate, that means without microtransactions Ubisoft would have posted a loss for the year. I don't know if I am reading this correctly but if someone can double check for me that would be great. Here's my sources:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ubisoft-makes-a-lot-of-money-from-microtransaction/1100-6456734/
https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/annual_report.aspx
Ubisoft employs the largest workforce in the industry, they scaled up due to the income of microtransactions. They employ 3000 more employees than Activision Blizzard (though I'm not sure what that is in FTE), even though they make about 6-7 times less. A 15% profit margin is simply healthy. No it's not Apple (20%), but compare it with Sony 11%, Royal Dutch Shell 5%, etc. So it's not like they're chasing scraps here, they could afford to grow their business.

It's more important to compare their profitability with times pre-PRI. E.g. in 2012 operating income divided by revenue was 5.3%, in 2013 8%. Then of course you're also comparing recession to boom period. Sony was making heavy losses by then.

There's no proof Ubisoft needs microtransactions, but it obviously helps their profitability.
 
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spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
No but, let's be realistic for a second. The world we live in means that companies/corporations/conglomerates are driven by profits and growth. Unless we were to move away from our current capitalist system then this will always be the case.

Taking that into account, monetisation and the quest to earn money beyond what is 'needed' to keep a company running is the reality of the situation. In lieu of microtransactions, what high margin revenue strategy do all of those agreeing with Jim suggest?

Because the alternative is for these companies to significantly downsize and stop making big games, or for capitalism to die in a fire. None of those things are happening. When I'm here supposedly 'defending' these practices, I'm merely accepting the realities of the industry and big business as a whole. What I think is a more interesting discussion is ways to monetise and generate revenue in less predatory ways, rather than shouting into the ether about how much I hate monetisation and insulting anyone who doesn't agree with me.

Am I being unreasonable, unfair, unbalanced? I don't think so.

I think it is unreasonable to prop an industry on failing business practices - just because they've built themselves this unsustainable model doesn't mean we are obligated to its preservation. Microtransactions aren't inherently malicious, but there has been a consistent trend towards more and more exploitative practices as companies retool their businesses to align with the larger profit making margins that such practices - take them away and they're all complaining about the lack of alternatives . On top of that, a normalization within the gaming community to accept those practices as "the realities of the industry" when the people responsible for building this beast are the ones who put themselves in this conundrum.

And then to ask people to be sympathetic to their cause?
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,442
Sweden
Animations $2,000,000
Gameplay design $1,500,000
Marketing $80,000,000
Modeling the largest open world to date so you can repeat the same 5 mission types in 500 different locations $360,000,000
Internships $1500
someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my game developer is dying
 

xmassteps

Member
Oct 30, 2017
860
The problem with the idea of making games simpler or smaller in scope is that the toothpaste is already out of the tube. We've already seen games with hugely ambitious visions and massive budgets and there's far more to come (RDR2, Cyberpunk, etc) and I don't think people will accept a walk back. The costs will only get higher. What is needed is the right balance between budgets and monetising the product without taking advantage of the player.
 

StraySheep

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,276
Id have more respect for people moaning about this if they boycotted the games. Instead of posting in a forum and then waiting for their pre order of RDR2 to be delivered.

I haven't bought NBA2K in 3 years despite becoming a bigger and bigger fan of the NBA. And let me tell you, that is a game that is in no need of financial funding via income from their virtual currency bullshit.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
The problem with the idea of making games simpler or smaller in scope is that the toothpaste is already out of the tube. We've already seen games with hugely ambitious visions and massive budgets and there's far more to come (RDR2, Cyberpunk, etc) and I don't think people will accept a walk back. The costs will only get higher. What is needed is the right balance between budgets and monetising the product without taking advantage of the player.

Ironically, Cyberpunk 2077 isn't going to have any sort of lootbox monetization.

Meanwhile, your annual FIFA installment thats basically a roster update is rife with them
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
If its not needed, why should people not suppose to be ok then?

It's just amusing to me how the debate has shifted. The justification for selling content piecemeal makes sense on a conceptual level: People worked on said content and should be compensated. I think it's generally accepted nowadays that DLC isn't a bad thing per se but can be bad if implemented unfairly.

The XP booster, however, is completely different. It's not needed and it's not additional content. It's like a cheat being sold at a premium markup. Essentially a way to hustle money from lazy and uninformed suckers. I remember years ago when we were joking about this and now it's reality.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
"It's just horse armor, no one is forcing you to buy it and it doesn't hurt anyone".

-Some extremely deluded person circa 2006.

Somewhere in here

https://www./threads/oblivion-360-items-for-sale-bring-real-money.93310/

Bonus funny from 2006

Croal: There's been a good deal of controversy in the enthusiast press and on message boards about the microtransaction practices of EA and other publishers. There's even a blog called GamerFeast, that has an Xbox 360 Microtransaction Tracker. As of early November, EA's fully loaded games--calculated by taking the price of the game at retail and adding to it all of the various microtransaction costs--held 3 of the top 5 spots, with Need for Speed Carbon topping the list at $94.97. Isn't there a concern that EA may be strip-mining its most avid consumers with these strategies, even if it does extend the life of the game additional content?


Probst: We're working our way through that. With some of the initial titles, we did hear complaints from consumers, but I think we learned. We did a better job on Need for Speed Carbon, and we're not hearing those same kinds of complaints or negative feedback about that product. It's generating a lot of money through microtransactions. So it's a learning process, it's iterative and we'll get better about it as we go. Need for Speed is the first example of getting smarter about it.

https://www./threads/eas-ceo-talks-...we-did-a-better-job-on-need-for-speed.131732/

With some of the initial titles, we did hear complaints from consumers, but I think we learned.

Then learned again how many times since 2006?

As I keep saying in this topic, the push-a-little formula.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
maybe for the higher ups in developer company.

If you think the salaried basic-line programmers are getting stock options when they generally get zero bonuses for working absurd hours during crunch time, you are fooling yourself.

You think the average rock-star employee that works 80+ hours to crunch their latest game is getting anything beyond basic salary?

You all do know the games industry is FAMOUS for being the least paid of any major technology market? While having some of the longest hours and least job security?

This is factually incorrect. There are several large publishers and corporations that offer stock options and incredibly generous bonus schemes for full time employees, regardless of position or profession.

I'm sure there are cases where people aren't getting their dues, but AAA publishers including the platform holders often offer great benefits and bonus schemes. I know this from experience.
 

xmassteps

Member
Oct 30, 2017
860
Ironically, Cyberpunk 2077 isn't going to have any sort of lootbox monetization.

Meanwhile, your annual FIFA installment thats basically a roster update is rife with them

Yeah don't get me wrong, I'm against MTs in games. I'd assumed if Cyberpunk is getting an additional revenue source, it'll be in the form of worthwhile expansions like it should be. However, if CDPR decided to charge more than the standard 60 for the game, I wouldn't begrudge them for it and would understand why.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
I think arguing that they're not needed is counter productive, because a company will always do whatever it can to make money, and thinking they would stop in this one respect is as silly as people thinking games are not designed to sell their MXTs

At this point the best we can argue for is better monitisation models, so more cosmetics, less lootboxes, more DLC expansions, less EXP boosters

As temping as it is to throw all MXTs under the bus, that's just not realistic, and there is a world of difference between something like the Witcher 3 and something like Battlefront 2

We do still get games that come out in 2018 that are monitised in a way that's not shit, so we need more of that
 

Rodjer

Self-requested ban.
Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,808
Meanwhile, your annual FIFA installment thats basically a roster update is rife with them

This is some bullshit, are you really ignoring all the money that EA has to spend for the FIFA license, to sign with every club and football federation, face scanning for all the big athletes, the Champions/Europa Leagues deals and the making of The Journey storyline (And we know SP campaigns cost a fuckton of money), if you think FIFA is "just a roster update" you are wrong.
 

Yamatake

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
62
tl;dw version:
1) AAA publishers make enough money to free their games from unnecessary microtransactions and guarantee their workers fair pay and other benefits;
2) Let's not pretend they need our defense from criticism;
3) Developer unions need to come asap;
4) It's not about need, it's about greed;
5) This is the case regardless of the game in question, be it Battlefront II, Assassin's Creed Odyssey or Devil May Cry V.

I like Jim but I think he goes a bit over the top with these objections to micro-transactions.

On people defending publishers, I don't really care because if people are fans of a particular companies products then that's fine by me if they want to defend that company from criticism. It should be fine to say you love Ubisoft games and don't mind microtransactions because the money made from them can be invested in future games.

HOWEVER, I love Assassins Creed origins and Odyssey (so far) BUT the fact that they have an actual segment in their store called "time savers" is kind of fucked up. Fucking, TIME SAVERS! That's just such a bad look for me. Like "you could finish our game quicker if you pay us more". WTF? It implies that even the developer themselves see elements of their game as "busy work" and they can incentivise consumers to skip all that for a fee. If that's a part of their design philosophy then, as a huge fan of Ubisoft products, it's concerning to me.

I do not think it's about greed. I think a huge company tends to have huge investment commitments associated with it and they have to reward those investors or investment could dry up. Yes, they want to make more and more money. It's the entertainment industry. I don't know what can be added to that.

I don't think I can say to these companies "entertain me with bigger and better things" but then give them the stink eye when they are raking in the cash.

Yes, developers need to unionize. Can't argue there. Won't argue there. I'd like to know how much devs are being paid though because the way Jim sells it you'd think they were working for a pittance.

On microtransactions themselves, there seems to be a lot of different things that come under this banner. I've always felt MTs are not good value for money. If they are just for cosmetic items in game then fine. If it's for extra side content DLC following other characters and not related to the main story then that's OK too.

"Time savers". That's a bad look. DLC that is prologues or epilogues to the main story? That's a bad look.

The stuff EA puts in it's ultimate team section in FIFA is ludicrous though. Fuckin, 2.50 to get Ronaldo for 5 matches, piss off.

Does Jim Sterling REALLY care that much about people who are prone to gambling addiction etc? I mean, it seems to me like if he got this stuff out of video games he would not then try to follow through and outlaw casinos etc, right? Which means, really, what he should be asking for is regulation and then accepting this is part of video games now. This idea that the companies are predatory etc seems a little over the top. Jim is over the top though so maybe that's just his way of expressing things.

What would people's take on those Pannini football sticker books be? Is that just gambling for kids?

I think games like Magic the Gathering are based around a similar "microtransaction" model?
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,304
I talked about the earnings reports earlier. Some (not you) don't want to look at data though, because it conflicts with their pre-conceived narrative.
I understand the distaste, I really, really do. But the landscape has changed and it's never going back to the way it was before. There may be a better balance in the future but it's not going to be like it was. Add to this that younger gamers are growing up in a world of mtx f2p games on mobile and they're not going to blink an eye when they see it in full priced games later down the road. It's better to just accept that this is the way it's going to be.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
So, I actually looked up the annual income statement of Ubisoft that they released in March 2018 and there income was about 215 million euros. I couldn't find the breakdown of sales, its probably in the report but I just cant be arsed with reading through the whole document. According to GameSpot Ubisoft made 315 million euros from "player recurring investments" which I think means micro-transactions during the same time. So if that is accurate, that means without microtransactions Ubisoft would have posted a loss for the year. I don't know if I am reading this correctly but if someone can double check for me that would be great. Here's my sources:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ubisoft-makes-a-lot-of-money-from-microtransaction/1100-6456734/
https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/annual_report.aspx

Check their investor relations Presentation slides for the sources of those graphs.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
Wow, your post got totally ignored. I feel like the notion that microtransactions are being implemented simply out of greed are misguided, it really seems like microtransactions are an integral part of keeping the company open nowadays. I would like more users to chime in to the actual data being presented rather than the rhetoric.
If they can't make it without microtransactions they don't deserve to be in business.

I'd rather EA, Ubisoft, and Activision go out of business than continue with microtransactions. The companies would be gone, but the devs would still have their skills and could form new studios with new ideas and new methods and not be hamstrung by predatory assholes.

Alternatively they could stop chasing the goose and budget games properly. We need more A and AA games. Hell, middleware needs to come back too.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
This is some bullshit, are you really ignoring all the money that EA has to spend for the FIFA license, to sign with every club and football federation, face scanning for all the big athletes, the Champions/Europa Leagues deals and the making of The Journey storyline (And we know SP campaigns cost a fuckton of money), if you think FIFA is "just a roster update" you are wrong.

This isn't a COD SP campaign that costs a hundred million to make. Face scans and what not are a given, with the roster update - and the license is a given. None of those costs come close to the cool 800 million USD they make from the ultimate team franchise. We're talking almost a billion dollars. That is obscene, and far outside the initial scope of "we need to cover our costs" somehow.
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Smaller companies don't have shareholders. In an unregulated environment, small companies will always be absorbed by the big ones.

Also, he's a games journalist, with a gaming audience and he always writes with a gaming angle. Localizing universal topics to your beat is one of the bedrocks of journalism.

"Just shut up and take it" is how every new shitty business practice becomes staple. Just ask airline customers.

Also, informing people is pretty valuable. It's called journalism, you should read about it.

Jim, at least in this video, is not creating journalism.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
So, I actually looked up the annual income statement of Ubisoft that they released in March 2018 and there income was about 215 million euros. I couldn't find the breakdown of sales, its probably in the report but I just cant be arsed with reading through the whole document. According to GameSpot Ubisoft made 315 million euros from "player recurring investments" which I think means micro-transactions during the same time. So if that is accurate, that means without microtransactions Ubisoft would have posted a loss for the year. I don't know if I am reading this correctly but if someone can double check for me that would be great. Here's my sources:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ubisoft-makes-a-lot-of-money-from-microtransaction/1100-6456734/
https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/company/investor_center/annual_report.aspx

They could also make games that don't require over a 1000 man dev teams with proper budgets, and don't overly rely on MTX.
Mind you, as some have said (including Jim): it's not that MTX by themselves are the problem but how they are handled/implemented.

Sample names of companies who do this: From Software, Nintendo, Sony, Square Enix (mostly lol), CDPR.

These production values are something they (the AAA Devs/Publishers) themselves started doing.
All you have to do is look at Square being dissapointed with the TR reboot sales because it only sold 3.5m copies.
 

StormEagle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
672
I talked about the earnings reports earlier. Some (not you) don't want to look at data though, because it conflicts with their pre-conceived narrative.
EA next. Profit margins for the 3 years 2016-2018 are actually about the same as the PS2 years 2003-2005. Last years operating income was $1.434BN. Ultimate Team alone (mostly FUT) was $1.081BN revenue. Again, very high margin, so almost all profit, and that doesn't even include the MTX from their other games. Subtract that income from the $1.434BN reported, and again profit margins would collapse.
Okay, I took the time to look at your post and the data and your first sentence is wrong. I'm not into financial lingo so I looked at Wikipedia and they defined Profit Margin as Net Profit (income) / Net Revenue. With the data you linked I get 26%, 20%, 20% for 2016-2018 and 13%, 20%, 16% for 2003-2005. And 2004 was a peak year before this generation. So they are not the same. The profit margins this generation are on another level, better than ever before. And revenues have been on a rising trend since 1998 (the oldest data I bothered looking up). It seems like the microtransaction time is very generous to EA.

And yes, corporations exist to make money and not to make consumers happy. But that does not mean you can't criticize their methods of making money.
 

Yamatake

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
62
And the rest of the world of companies and capitalism isn't criticized. /s

so thus this thread shouldn't exist in your eyes.

So in the end, you are thread complaining that we haven't solved the evils of capitalism in the greater world so talking about it in the Games industry is pointless.

Surely though if someone is so determined to "solve the evils of capitalism" then video games would have to be one of the least significant battlefields to fight on?

I hate capitalism, now let me just pop down to the shops and buy a 400 dollar videogame console and a few games cos you need games and take it home and hook that up to my 1000 dollar TV and lounge on my sofa and enjoy my day off. THEN I'll take to the video games forums to give out that there are not enough good new releases and also complain about capitalism.

Sorry, but the "evils" of capitalism are things that literally cause people to remain stuck living in poverty, unable to even buy a videogame console to complain about.

Exploitation is NOT saying "hey, buy our 60 dollar product, if you want, you don't have to, but if you do then please consider giving us more money for additional stuff".

I can't really imagine how the AAA, big budget, etc gaming industry could some how NOT be an entirely capitalist endeavor? Don't you need massive investment to even create one of these games? Then would you not be obligated to give those investors some kind of return on their investments?

Even with crowdfunded games the developer asks for investment from the community and then gets a torrent of abuse when there is not a timely return on those investments.

The best angle of criticism here is that games are now being designed with microtransactions in mind. So they might do things like make leveling up a ridiculous grind and then remind the player on the start menu of the 10 buck XP boster.