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Oct 25, 2017
1,071
In a statement issued by Denuvo owner Irdeto (the latter acquired the former earlier this year), the company states that it tracked pirate downloads of an unnamed 'AAA' (big budget, major studio) title during the first few days after its release. Without Denuvo protection it was quickly cracked and made available on P2P networks and from there, pirates did their thing.

"Irdeto tracked the downloads of a major sports title on P2P networks after the title, which did not include anti-tamper protection, was cracked on the same day of its release," the company says.

"During the first two weeks, Irdeto detected 355,664 torrent downloads of the illegal copy of the title. Given the retail price of the game, this puts the total potential loss of revenue from P2P downloads at $21,336,283."

Irdeto highlights the first 14 days following release as the most critical for such a game, claiming that up to 80% of sales take place during the period. An impressive 50% of those sales take place within the first four days, the company adds.

It's worth noting that while Denuvo games are often cracked very quickly, it's definitely not uncommon for protection to stand up to the first two weeks of attacks. Denuvo can usually hold off crackers for the first four days, so these figures are obvious marketing tools for a technology that has been somewhat diminished after various cracking groups began taking its challenge personally.

But just in case Denuvo only manages a single day of protection, owner Irdeto suggests that the effort is worth it – even dropping down to the importance of standing firm for an hour.

"The research also found that the first day of release alone is crucial for the protection of a AAA title, as 12% of the illegal P2P downloads occurred within the first day of the cracked copy appearing on the P2P networks (and a substantial number of these in the first hour)," the company adds.

https://torrentfreak.com/denuvo-cit...a-game-not-using-its-anti-piracy-tech-181108/
 

SprachBrooks

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,353
If you go through the effort to pirate a game, it's highly doubtful you wouldn't wait a couple of weeks for Denuvo to be cracked and then download it. The equation of P2P downloads = lost sales is unverifiable.
 

Plasma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,636
You can't just equate the number of downloads to the number of sales lost it never works like that.
 

Boddy

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,160
"During the first two weeks, Irdeto detected 355,664 torrent downloads of the illegal copy of the title. Given the retail price of the game, this puts the total potential loss of revenue from P2P downloads at $21,336,283."
Right....
Yeah that's not how that works at all.

Pirats aren't excatly starving for games, so most of them can wait a few days until the game is cracked.
Nevermind that most of them would have never bought the game at full price anyway.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
Just make it standard policy for Denuvo to be removed 2 weeks after launch. That'll stop a big proportion of the annoyance.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,740
You can't just equate the number of downloads to the number of sales lost it never works like that.
Yeah it's frankly insane to think anyone would conflate the two.
Right....
Yeah that's not how that works at all.

Pirats aren't excatly starving for games, so most of them can wait a few days until the game is cracked.
Nevermind that most of them would have never bought the game at full price anyway.
Yep, this totally. Someone who wants to actually pirate the game is always gonna wait.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
If you go through the effort to pirate a game, it's highly doubtful you wouldn't wait a couple of weeks for Denuvo to be cracked and then download it. The equation of P2P downloads = lost sales is unverifiable.
A study could be done on it but even if the industry paid to confirm it you aren't likely to believe it even if it did indicate Denuvo would be worth it to them.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,674
Western Australia
This sounds like Irdeto is having buyer's remorse. Seeing as Denuvo-protected games are now generally cracked in a matter of days, with the exceptions being those that are interlaced with some other form of strong DRM (e.g. VMProtect in the case of Ubi's AAA releases), perhaps publishers are beginning to question whether it's worth the price tag.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
What sports title could it even be? All the sports ones I can think of have Denuvo. Even Football Manage has it.

Only one I can think of is maybe WWE?
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
But tbf, wouldnt it be absolutely fine if games included Denuvo in the release week for example? I think I would be fine with that.
 

Kadath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
621
You can as well close the topic, they measured losses through torrent downloads. It's just invalid.
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,565
Idk how people still pirating games tbh.. you download big ass files and these game nowadays patched every 3 days.. invalidate everything.

I guess they can have much better internet than mine.. but for me since few years ago pirating game actually very troublesome experience that I rather not bother.
 

esseesse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
489
Indeed.... and what about people NOT buying your game because of DRM? I usually never buy Denuvo "protected" titles. Or what about people downloading, trying and THEN buying your game?

So, advocating for piracy when you want to try a videogame in order to buy it later is allowed or even legal?

Hey, let me just steal this iPhone. I need to know if its good before I buy it...
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,740
So, advocating for piracy when you want to try a videogame in order to buy it later is allowed or even legal?

Hey, let me just steal this iPhone. I need to know if its good before I buy it...
Piracy is not stealing. You don't take physical goods. It's copyright infringement.
 

Vipu

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,276
I have 5mil views on picture in instagram, im selling that picture in frame for 5$ on my website, I could have sold that framed picture for total of 25mil $, where is my picture DRM!!!
 

esseesse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
489
Piracy is not stealing. You don't take physical goods. It's copyright infringement.

So, uh, what exactly are you trying to say? What if I steal a retail game from a store? Both ways are illegal and in both you are using something which you have not paid for. The popular word for that is stealing. No point in twisting it.
 

Vipu

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,276
Idk how people still pirating games tbh.. you download big ass files and these game nowadays patched every 3 days.. invalidate everything.

I guess they can have much better internet than mine.. but for me since few years ago pirating game actually very troublesome experience that I rather not bother.

If its not some huge patch I dont think people bother, also I think there is patched pirate games as soon as there is patch so its not really big trouble.
This info is from many many years ago tho, not sure how things are these days.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
oh fuck off. this isn't the way to prove your ineffective drm's worth to publishers. unless they can prove their services have increased launch sales for a game compared to a previous entry in that series (that didn't have denuvo) this doesn't mean anything. they're using some elementary school logic here.
 

BumbaT BrowN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
589
They really believe those downloading would have actually bought the game if it was uncrackable? And at full price?
 

Deleted member 10193

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,127
So, uh, what exactly are you trying to say? What if I steal a retail game from a store? Both ways are illegal and in both you are using something which you have not paid for. The popular word for that is stealing. No point in twisting it.
You steal a game from the store and you deprive the store of a physical product that they paid for that they cannot then sell to an end user.

You download some bits and it doesn't destroy the original game it was copied from. The store and the developer already got the money.

I'm not condoning it however.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,097
Astonishing to see anyone still claiming that each pirated copy is a full price lost sale. Do they think we have sawdust for brains?
 

Krvavi Abadas

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,254
Videoland
What sports title could it even be? All the sports ones I can think of have Denuvo. Even Football Manage has it.

Looking it up, the only "AAA" sports title that
  1. Doesn't use Denuvo
  2. Was cracked on the same day as release.
Is Tennis World Tour.
9q0MUMS.png

Everything else was cracked before and after release.

Mind you, this was a game that launched without the promised online Multiplayer modes, and has a 44 score on Opencritic.

1f914.png


Edit: Also their calculations are fucked up, the game launched at $49.99 (After removing the standard 20% off discount every Steam game gets on launch.)
Which equals 17,779,643.
They're calculating the price as if the game launched at $59.99
 
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Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
It's funny how these people still use the "downloads x retail price" calculation, even though it was proven false more than a decade ago, and numerous times.

Ah well.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,684
a Socialist Utopia
Their first mistake was buying Denuvo. But since they directly equate torrents with lost sales they apparently aren't very smart at all. I always facepalm when companies openly display their ignorance like this. "Look at us! We are this dumb!"
 

Serious Sam

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,354
Astonishing to see anyone still claiming that each pirated copy is a full price lost sale. Do they think we have sawdust for brains?
I think both camps are a bit wrong here. It's not black or white situation here. It's somewhere in the middle.

No, not every pirated copy is a lost sale, but some most certainly are. There are people who never buy games and then there are those who just want to play ASAP, if there is no crack in a first week or so they just buy the game.
 

Kuldar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,448
I was expecting an actual study and not just the old crap "1copy pirated = 1 sell lost".
 

LAA

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,326
Course they'd say that.
Big problem is a pirated download doesn't necessarily mean it would be a purchase, they may just not buy it at all.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,096
Pakistan
I think both camps are a bit wrong here. It's not black or white situation here. It's somewhere in the middle.

No, not every pirated copy is a lost sale, but some most certainly are. There are people who never buy games and then there are those who just want to play ASAP, if there is no crack in a first week or so they just buy the game.

IMO, this should be quite obvious. Its never black and white when it comes to Piracy and lost sales. The real debate is getting to the crux of the calcuation of pinpointing the exact/estimated figure of real losses in that non-black/white middleground.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,097
I think both camps are a bit wrong here. It's not black or white situation here. It's somewhere in the middle.

No, not every pirated copy is a lost sale, but some most certainly are. There are people who never buy games and then there are those who just want to play ASAP, if there is no crack in a first week or so they just buy the game.
I don't think "both sides" applies here at all.

I never said "there are zero lost sales".

The number of pirated copies that equate to a lost sale is somewhere between 0% and 100%. Denuvo are claiming it is 100%.

Rudimentary logic suggests that it is probably closer to 0% than 100%, but there's no way it is 100%.
 

Boddy

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,160
I think both camps are a bit wrong here. It's not black or white situation here. It's somewhere in the middle.

No, not every pirated copy is a lost sale, but some most certainly are. There are people who never buy games and then there are those who just want to play ASAP, if there is no crack in a first week or so they just buy the game.
Most people that pirat games nowadays either can't pay for them (maybe because they are still young or because they have a low paying job) or are entitled douchebags that just want shit for free.
Neither of these is a lost sale.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Someone pirating a game would not necessarily buy the game if it was impossible to crack, but it's not a secret it does equal to a certain amount of lost sales. I was personally in more than one gaming community where certain functions not working in the cracked versions forced dozens of people (that I've personally seen) to buy the game instead, which would have not happened had the cracked version worked flawlessly with all modes and patches. Denuvo's calculations are off because not all pirated copies mean a lost sale, but there is a point indeed: a game being uncrackable (even temporarily) will force a lot of people to buy the game instead.
 

jerfdr

Member
Dec 14, 2017
702
This logic that "1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale" is incredibly stupid. For instance, I'm personally boycotting games which have Denuvo (and a lot of other people have the same views). So using the very same logic they use to arrive at "1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale" we can deduce that every person who haven't bought a given game didn't do this due to Denuvo. Which means that using Denuvo = about 6 billion of lost sales! Whoosh!

Note that I'm not condoning piracy here, I'm just ridiculing the incredibly stupid logic which Denuvo and many publishers use to justify their anti-consumer DRM.
 
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