Destiny 2 Shadowkeep Reviews thread

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,611
My biggest gripe with Destiny, and why I finally fell out of love with the game by the time Forsaken came out, was that it’s loot had been in a terrible position ever since TTK was released back for D1. Bungie consistently nerfed anything fun and exciting, and introduced more and more bland weaponry and armour with pointless perks.

Is that something that’s still an issue?
What weapons and armor did you like from D1?

Skeep has done some great things with armor. Weapons are more or less the same. Exotics can be good.

D1 had fantastic weapons but I mean.

Everything was gallyhorn fatebringer.
 

PopsMaellard

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,812
Once again you didn’t say disappointing at time of release in your first post; you literally said its the most disappointing game this generation. Maybe try and word better next time?
I was very explicit with my original post. Disappointing at release made it the most disappointing game of the generation.

I’ve been trying to restate and add context/explanation to this argument over the course of my last few posts, but it’s really as simple as this: Destiny failed to meet expectations Bungie set. This is the literal definition of a “disappointment”. Nothing that happened post release can change that it was a disappointment. Additionally, I feel that objectively no other release this console generation failed so spectacularly to meet expectations, thus “disappointing”, and as such Destiny is the *most* disappointing game of the generation.


Not once have I argued or suggested that Destiny as a series was not a success, not added to, not improved, and not better now. That doesn’t change that it *was* disappointing. Nothing can ever erase the feeling of disappointment it created.

  • Was a disappointment
  • Was the most disappointing game of the generation
You’re only speaking to the former while asserting the latter.
Being successful years later cannot ever change how disappointing it was, and again, it was so profoundly disappointing that I feel no other disappointing release this generation has come close. As an example, Anthem was disappointing, but there was a healthy skepticism surrounding Anthem from day one. Borderlands 3 could be called disappointing for being just more Borderlands, but for much of its audience that was all it needed to be.


So an overall successful franchise with a few blunders in between doesn't really support the claim that Bungo somehow "fell off", which was the original point being argued. How exactly are we defining this vague "falling off".
People like Destiny. People play a lot of it, and it’s been very commercially successful. Despite this, Destiny has had more than “a few” blunders. Destiny has had a very tumultuous, divisive history and continues to struggle with this critically. Inversely, previous Bungie titles were largely very consistently great, received very positively by both the community and critically. Given what we know about the problematic development of Destiny and the comparison we can draw between it and Halo, it’s reasonable to say that Bungie has been struggling a bit.


You’re thinking of BioWare.
From day one the reaction to Anthem was intensely skeptical. Anthem was never spoken of like Destiny.
 

Kadath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
291
The odd thing about Destiny, and the way you have to approach it, is that it's not a game about leveling or getting stronger. You can now do 90% of content at the base level, and getting higher levels after that only unlocks late/end-game content. You still do quests for gear, but it's the specific equipment that's important, not its light level. Light level only matters for end-game content (i.e. nightfalls, raids). For everything else, it's meaningless because the damage all gets normalized anyways.
The problem is that Shadowkeep should have built on top of the solid foundation that was Forsaken.

Instead Shadowkeep demolished that foundation.

The 90%+ content that you can do, is content that is now worthless in the way it plays and feels because it's was originally easy game that's now made much more easy. They removed connective tissue between missions, they removed its purpose. There's nothing left of the original experience, and now it's all in a much worse state as a result.

New players either are on board with the proposition and ignore all content that isn't Shadowkeep, or they just face a terrible experience.
 

Kadath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
291
Lots of veteran players don't want (or care) about story campaign anymore. Actually i'd argue that campaign has always been a roadblock to enjoying the best content in Destiny. I'm so glad they removed the need to do it.
This is false insofar Forsaken already allowed you to create a new character at max level, or instantly level up. They should have simply allowed this for all new players instead of putting it behind a paywall (Forsaken), or made it forced (Shadowkeep).

What they've done is removing the option to do so and force all players to adapt to their tunnel vision of the game, making the game all about the endgame grind because they only see their raiding communities who don't care about any legacy content or experience that content that they've never seen.
 

Orion117

Member
Dec 8, 2018
390
I know I would.

That being said my problem isn't the lack of new planets. It's that they're not EXPANDING the current environments. No reason new sections of Earth, Mars, and especially IO and Titan can't be created and used for story telling and repeatable content.
Yeah they do that and you will get more posts about bungie being lazy and reusing assets.
 

Bold One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,631
This is false insofar Forsaken already allowed you to create a new character at max level, or instantly level up. They should have simply allowed this for all new players instead of putting it behind a paywall (Forsaken), or made it forced (Shadowkeep).

What they've done is removing the option to do so and force all players to adapt to their tunnel vision of the game, making the game all about the endgame grind because they only see their raiding communities who don't care about any legacy content or experience that content that they've never seen.
There is so much that is monumentally wrong with just about every word you typed, I am in awe of it.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
This is false insofar Forsaken already allowed you to create a new character at max level, or instantly level up. They should have simply allowed this for all new players instead of putting it behind a paywall (Forsaken), or made it forced (Shadowkeep).

What they've done is removing the option to do so and force all players to adapt to their tunnel vision of the game, making the game all about the endgame grind because they only see their raiding communities who don't care about any legacy content or experience that content that they've never seen.
You haven't actually played Destiny before, have you?
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
Regardless of how you feel about what they did with it post-release, the launch version of Destiny was absolutely disappointing.

Also, let’s be clear about what “disappointing” means. It doesn’t mean they made the worst game, or a game that wasn’t successful. The expectations that Bungie themselves set leading up to release, the amount of time and resources Bungie had and the expectations that set industry wide, were objectively not fulfilled.

I’m not going to argue with people who stuck with the series or came back to it years later once significant amounts of content had been added and much was changed to improve the situation, but at it’s core Destiny in 2014 was profoundly disappointing.
Launch Destiny 1 was a very fun loot chaser with excellent end-game. Vault of Glass was an incredible raid, easily still one of the best.

Aside from the "you can go where you can see" controversy, Bungie were actually very sparse with info pre-release, and mich of the hype and expectation was generated by fans imagining what it would be like.

Many of us didn't let those expectations get the better of us, and while we were not blind to D1's flaws we found it to be an excellent game.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,240
The only people who talk more about Destiny than Destiny players are the people who don’t play Destiny but want to tell everyone that they played Destiny 5 years ago.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,301
Other people have differing opinions. A lot of people thought Destiny 1 was massively disappointing, I'm not sure why this is still shocking to people who love it.
The hardcore fans see what they wanna see. They're somehow oblivious to the externals, to the wider gaming population and majority that say Destiny used to be really bad. Hell, it was really bad yet again as recently as 2017, when Destiny 2 launched. Took a year for that launch to be fixed. Bland Lost Sectors, Adventures, fixed roll weapons (which would've been fine, had the perks actually been useful), Faction Rally being a non-event, 4v4 Crucible with slower pace and nerfed everything, etc.

It's one thing to say "Destiny is in a good place now", but to deny that it was ever in a bad place to begin with is a special kind of willful ignorance. Any long-time veteran who is willing to be honest can tell you about all the best parts without omitting the worst. The launch of D1 and D2 are a part of the latter.
 

Strakt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
The hardcore fans see what they wanna see. They're somehow oblivious to the externals, to the wider gaming population and majority that say Destiny used to be really bad. Hell, it was really bad yet again as recently as 2017, when Destiny 2 launched. Took a year for that launch to be fixed. Bland Lost Sectors, Adventures, fixed roll weapons (which would've been fine, had the perks actually been useful), Faction Rally being a non-event, 4v4 Crucible with slower pace and nerfed everything, etc.

It's one thing to say "Destiny is in a good place now", but to deny that it was ever in a bad place to begin with is a special kind of willful ignorance. Any long-time veteran who is willing to be honest can tell you about all the best parts without omitting the worst. The launch of D1 and D2 are a part of the latter.
I dont think anyone is denying that the game was ever in a bad place. I think people are just responding to the post of "Destiny is the most disappointing game this generation". Yea, its an opinion... but its a laughable one.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
The hardcore fans see what they wanna see. They're somehow oblivious to the externals, to the wider gaming population and majority that say Destiny used to be really bad. Hell, it was really bad yet again as recently as 2017, when Destiny 2 launched. Took a year for that launch to be fixed. Bland Lost Sectors, Adventures, fixed roll weapons (which would've been fine, had the perks actually been useful), Faction Rally being a non-event, 4v4 Crucible with slower pace and nerfed everything, etc.

It's one thing to say "Destiny is in a good place now", but to deny that it was ever in a bad place to begin with is a special kind of willful ignorance. Any long-time veteran who is willing to be honest can tell you about all the best parts without omitting the worst. The launch of D1 and D2 are a part of the latter.
I've never seen any any fan, hardcore or casual, deny Destiny has had a rocky road.

You also have no basis for saying "the majority" here at all, you're pulling that from nowhere.
 

Warnen

Member
Was able to play without getting disconnected but overall I’m disappointed. The moon is great and all but as I was getting locations chests doing the very few missions and lost sectors and I couldn‘t believe how much it’s just the same area as D1 with slight tweaks. Really feels like they just took that old area and updated the engine, extremely disappointing coming after forsaken.

Not having a character lvl just feels weird too, seems like a change they should have waited for a sequel to do. As for armor 2.0, love the fact I don’t need to waste time trying to get matching armor pieces any more (thank you years of eververse armor ornaments) but it sucks I have to grind out mods again. Again, seems like a change that would have been better saved for a sequel.

Had more fun grinding strikes to 900 then playing the campaign. Also the seasonal event is shit compared to the menagerie.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,834
New York
Yeah they do that and you will get more posts about bungie being lazy and reusing assets.
I believe it. But going back to the moon doesn’t bother me. The game feels huge. And I’m enjoying myself. I just want more stories. Even contained little arcs. My guardian goes somewhere. Cutscene seeing survivors that need help. Go and helps them by killing scores of NPC’s. Retrieves what they need and returns it to them. Exit cutscene and reward. Little stories. It just feels like once a season I get a cutscene. A. Cutscene.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,301
I dont think anyone is denying that the game was ever in a bad place. I think people are just responding to the post of "Destiny is the most disappointing game this generation". Yea, its an opinion... but its a laughable one.
I don't know about "most disappointing game of the generation", I think that part might be hyperbolic. Mass Effect: Andromeda and Anthem ended up being worse games, to name a couple... but I'm not sure that those had quite the same amount of hype behind them as "that massive new game from the makers of Halo".
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,989
I dont think anyone is denying that the game was ever in a bad place. I think people are just responding to the post of "Destiny is the most disappointing game this generation". Yea, its an opinion... but its a laughable one.
How is it laughable? The dudes went from making the original Halo to a game that was anemic on content and had overpriced DLC packs and didn't exactly light up critical reception until the penultimate expansion years later.

Worst game doesn't equal most disappointing.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,834
New York
I've never seen any any fan, hardcore or casual, deny Destiny has had a rocky road.

You also have no basis for saying "the majority" here at all, you're pulling that from nowhere.
I’m a fairly hardcore fan. I never stopped playing. The game was horrible and had horrible problems. It turned 90% of my friends off. They actively mock me for playing Destiny 2 to this day and not playing Smite/Fortnite/Apex. They just wanna log in and go. No story.

That being said I kept playing because despite the issues *I* had fun. But yea, 14 months waiting for Relentless to be a viable option in PvP hurt so bad. ”Here’s a dope trials gun, here’s the ability to masterwork it. And it’s completely useless until we switch up the meta once a year. Enjoy! For a year. Cause then we gonna switch up the meta and make that archtype completely useless again!”
 

Strakt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
How is it laughable? The dudes went from making the original Halo to a game that was anemic on content and had overpriced DLC packs and didn't exactly light up critical reception until the penultimate expansion years later.

Worst game doesn't equal most disappointing.
And once again; while it had disappointing periods such as launch of both titles... it still ends up being A) #2 best selling FPS behind COD (outselling halo) and B) The 7th best selling overall franchise since its debut. Like I said... it definitely had disappointing periods but that doesn't make it the most disappointing title this generation.. and to say that is laughable
 

Jaaake

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,413
Australia
Seems like there was very little effort in changing the moon from Destiny 1. Raid seems fine I guess but this expansion is definitely not worth the amount that they’re asking for considering all of the reused assets and cliff hanger cliff hanger 2 hour ‘story’

I messed up and bought the expansion after a year break from the game because I thought it would be Forsaken 2.0, but this is definitely not it.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
I’m a fairly hardcore fan. I never stopped playing. The game was horrible and had horrible problems. It turned 90% of my friends off. They actively mock me for playing Destiny 2 to this day and not playing Smite/Fortnite/Apex. They just wanna log in and go. No story.

That being said I kept playing because despite the issues *I* had fun. But yea, 14 months waiting for Relentless to be a viable option in PvP hurt so bad. ”Here’s a dope trials gun, here’s the ability to masterwork it. And it’s completely useless until we switch up the meta once a year. Enjoy! For a year. Cause then we gonna switch up the meta and make that archtype completely useless again!”
My anecdotes are the complete opposite. My friends adored the game despite the issues.

And while I think it had issues, I definitely would not call them horrible.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,301
I've never seen any any fan, hardcore or casual, deny Destiny has had a rocky road.

You also have no basis for saying "the majority" here at all, you're pulling that from nowhere.
I say the majority because we still hear from a ton of people who, to quote Dalek:
The only people who talk more about Destiny than Destiny players are the people who don’t play Destiny but want to tell everyone that they played Destiny 5 years ago.
Sure, I don't know the exact numbers, but there's never a shortage of people who were so bummed out with the game at launch, that they never forgot about it and remember the disappointment to this day. I'm not saying it's right to hold onto that all these years later, but it is what it is.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
I say the majority because we still hear from a ton of people who, to quote Dalek:

Sure, I don't know the exact numbers, but there's never a shortage of people who were so bummed out with the game at launch, that they never forgot about it and remember the disappointment to this day. I'm not saying it's right to hold onto that all these years later, but it is what it is.
What it is is people tend to be far more vocal about disappointment.

That's pretty much all it is imo the game sells a lot and has one of the largest active communities on this forum. I would say there's more evidence that the majority of players who tried the game actually enjoy it than hate it.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,989
And once again; while it had disappointing periods such as launch of both titles... it still ends up being A) #2 best selling FPS behind COD (outselling halo) and B) The 7th best selling overall franchise since its debut. Like I said... it definitely had disappointing periods but that doesn't make it the most disappointing title this generation.. and to say that is laughable
Why are you conflating quality with sales?
 

Strakt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
Why are you conflating quality with sales?
If it was the most disappointing game this generation, I'm sure people wouldn't buy into it 5 years after release... Therefore it obviously is a quality game and something that looter shooter fans enjoy. Theres a reason destiny is the most popular looter shooter out right now.
 

Nimurai

Member
Oct 28, 2017
523
I see. That must be it then. Didn´t do that quest yet and the map was indicating I had to buy the season pass to get it. They really should work on their UI and quest system. Thanks!
Someone probably already said this by now, but are you playing on another account than you bought the game on? I had to buy this season separately since I originally bought d2 on another account on my ps4. It is now account bound, so it doesn't transfer over. It wasn't a problem up until shadowkeep.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,989
If it was the most disappointing game this generation, I'm sure people wouldn't buy into it 5 years after release... Therefore it obviously is a quality game and something that looter shooter fans enjoy. Theres a reason destiny is the most popular looter shooter out right now.
I never said it wasn't popular. You're trying to argue against subjective opinions with "well other people really like it". Ok. I thought 1 especially was very disappointing. Others did too. They're not wrong. It's not like this game was some 97 behemoth on metacritic that had no flaws.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
I never said it wasn't popular. You're trying to argue against subjective opinions with "well other people really like it". Ok. I thought 1 especially was very disappointing. Others did too. They're not wrong. It's not like this game was some 97 behemoth on metacritic that had no flaws.
No, they were arguing against the idea it was a horrible game, or rather "the most disappointing game this gen". If it were that bad, it wouldn't sell so well.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,989
No, they were arguing against the idea it was a horrible game, or rather "the most disappointing game this gen". If it were that bad, it wouldn't sell so well.
The most disappointing game this gen doesn't mean it's horrible. Based on expectations and the pedigree of the developers I can see a pretty good case for that, and again it's subjective opinion.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
The most disappointing game this gen doesn't mean it's horrible. Based on expectations and the pedigree of the developers I can see a pretty good case for that, and again it's subjective opinion.
Na, sorry, you were talking like your opinions about the game were objective.

Srop pretending you weren't.

Plenty of others do this is in every Destiny thread, too.

But plenty more actively enjoy it in the community threads. Strange...
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,989
Na, sorry, you were talking like your opinions about the game were objective.

Srop pretending you weren't.

Plenty of others do this is in every Destiny thread, too.

But plenty more actively enjoy it in the community threads. Strange...
I really really wasn't. Try being less overly defensive next time.

Anyway on topic, this expansion being $35 with basically no brand new areas outside of the raid is super disappointing, especially coming off of Forsaken.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,283
I really really wasn't. Try being less overly defensive next time.

Anyway on topic, this expansion being $35 with basically no brand new areas outside of the raid is super disappointing, especially coming off of Forsaken.
You were calling it content anemic like that was a fact, when I would that's hyperbolic.

Regardless, the idea that "most disappointing game of the gen" is laughable is also an opinion, one that the strong sales support. And the people they were responding to was absolutely painting it like it was objective, which was why bringing up the sales in response was valid.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,989
You were calling it content anemic like that was a fact, when I would that's hyperbolic.

Regardless, the idea that "most disappointing game of the gen" is laughable is also an opinion, one that the strong sales support. And the people they were responding to was absolutely painting it like it was objective, which was why bringing up the sales in response was valid.
How was destiny 1 being content anemic not a fact? It was pretty much the main complaint even among hardcore fans until the expansions started rolling in.
 

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,360
I think reviewing an expansion for a something, where Bungie themselves have said will evolve, is nothing more than begging for clicks
Begging for clicks? My nigga, what are they supposed to do? Not review it? Lol at some point they have to work with what they have.

I think GaaS is gonna require us to rethink how we approach reviewing games, but not acknowledging the expansion of one of the biggest AAA games out there is a complete non-starter.
 

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,360
Arguing Destiny is the most disappointing game this gen feels disingenuous, but I suppose that’s highly subjective.