Details about "New" Switch revision via OS datamine (LPDDR4x RAM, modest GPU performance boost, no "Pro" model in sight)

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
979
I wonder what the price point for thew "new" switch will be? $299 and OG switch reduced to $249 maybe?
It's going to be $299 for the "now in new color" Switch and the OG is going to be "out of stock". There's no way they're selling this thing along side the original when every indication is it's just a stealth revision of the original.
 

skittzo0413

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,211
but according to CNET "The Lite isn't a sequel to the Switch. It's more of a lower-cost spin-off. It'll also be the only new Nintendo Switch hardware this holiday, as Bowser says the larger Switch won't get an upgrade right now. But maybe that's exactly what's needed."

so, why would Bowser (lol) lie? besides that he's an evil guy and all that
Note that that quote ("the only new hardware this holiday") is not directly attributed to Bowser.

Also this is the company that denied the existence of a 3DS XL like 5 days before it was announced.

Yeah we did:



It also mention the 8GB ram support. There's nothing new in the OP.
What the chip itself is rated for is not the same as what the setting in the Switch firmware for it is. Nintendo will absolutely not running the GPU at the theoretical maximum 1.267GHz on the enhanced Switch when they maxed out at 768MHz on the previous one (where its theoretical max was 921MHz). Unless I'm mistaken the info in the OP is stating that the new enhanced Switch runs its GPU at a higher profile than the previous Switch does, which was always going to be a choice by Nintendo that we would have no way of knowing just by looking at the hardware.

Also it mentions 8GB RAM support but it did not mention the RAM type. The old Switch uses LPDDR4, this uses LPDDR4X which is more efficient.
 

Gurgelhals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
680
So someone earlier pointed out something interesting. The OG Switch uses two 2GB RAM modules, while the OG Switch devkit uses 3 (to give it 6GB of RAM). The new Switch having 8GB for devkits might suggest that it uses two 4GB modules (saving space and cost) while the OG Switch will now use one 4GB RAM module, right?

Unless I'm mistaken a single 4GB RAM module would have a wider bus giving it a much higher RAM bandwidth. Does that sound right?
It's the other way around actually. A single RAM chip would have to come with a 64bit interface to match the bandwidth of the two 32bit chips used in the original Switch. Also, it would need a revision of the board itself, because the circuit paths between the SoC and the RAM would need to be drawn differently for a different memory configuration.

There's basically three things that they can do here:
- Stick with the current arrangement of a 64bit bus using two 32bit RAM chips (This seems the most likely case to me. They don't need a wider bus for a moderate spec bump like this; using RAM with a higher frequency is enough).
- Keep the 64bit bus but switch to a single 64bit RAM chip (not sure why they would want to do this though, expect perhaps as a cost saving measure and because a single 4Gbyte chip might draw less power than two 2Gbyte chips).
- Double the bandwidth by switching to a 128bit bus with two RAM chips (would be overkill, spec-wise. Also, wider memory interfaces draw significantly more power afaik, so you don't want to do this in a mobile device if there's not a pressing reason for it).
 

Vito

formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,171
If the game never gets a patch by the time the new revision hits, I doubt anything would change and the support for it dropped a long while ago.

I remember that the resolution is adaptive, and from a quick google search I think it tops at 552p in portable mode, so even if the hardware gets better, I think it'll just stay at that 'top' resolution more often. Still, that's better than the 368p it can reach I guess.
552p is the max resolution undocked?
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,341
it'll be interesting to see when the hardware refresh hits shelves. it's likely it wont get a direct and simply be sold with new boxing indicating the new internal storage size, while current stock gets sold out. also curious if Nintendo has cheapened out on the screens with the mini or this upcoming mild refresh. they have a tendency to cut corners where they can.
 

Seik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,942
Québec City
552p is the max resolution undocked?
Yup.


However, everything changes when playing in handheld mode and image quality takes a nose dive. Unlike docked mode, playing on the go sees the developers deploy a dynamic resolution solution. The results range from 552p or so to 432p and even as low as 368p in some cases. There are probably other values in there as well but it's clear that this is not a game that ever comes close to reaching the native resolution of the Switch's integrated display. In fact, this is one of the lowest resolutions we've pixel counted since the PlayStation Vita era.
 

skittzo0413

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,211
It's the other way around actually. A single RAM chip would have to come with a 64bit interface to match the bandwidth of the two 32bit chips used in the original Switch. Also, it would need a revision of the board itself, because the circuit paths between the SoC and the RAM would need to be drawn differently for a different memory configuration.

There's basically three things that they can do here:
- Stick with the current arrangement of a 64bit bus using two 32bit RAM chips (This seems the most likely case to me. They don't need a wider bus for a moderate spec bump like this; using RAM with a higher frequency is enough).
- Keep the 64bit bus but switch to a single 64bit RAM chip (not sure why they would want to do this though, expect perhaps as a cost saving measure and because a single 4Gbyte chip might draw less power than two 2Gbyte chips).
- Double the bandwidth by switching to a 128bit bus with two RAM chips (would be overkill, spec-wise. Also, wider memory interfaces draw significantly more power afaik, so you don't want to do this in a mobile device if there's not a pressing reason for it).
Ah I see, thanks for the info. So simply using a more energy efficient RAM should help increase the bandwidth by a noticable amount? Assuming it's clocked higher to take advantage of the increased efficiency?
 

KAG

Member
Sep 12, 2018
6
As to what I expect from the upcoming Switch revision...... I expect we'll see a much better build of the Switch that address some of the issues with the current Switch. It should receive a better built body that is more durable with color variations. An either reduced/ colored bezel for the screen which may be slightly brighter/ larger screen but not 1080p. Also expect An enhanced SOC & ram combination that manages heat and battery consumption more efficiently . This will also allow for faster loading times, more stable frame-rates and "modest" graphic enhancements depending upon the game. Lastly an increase to 64GB on-board storage. That is all.
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,106
Note that that quote ("the only new hardware this holiday") is not directly attributed to Bowser.

Also this is the company that denied the existence of a 3DS XL like 5 days before it was announced.



What the chip itself is rated for is not the same as what the setting in the Switch firmware for it is. Nintendo will absolutely not running the GPU at the theoretical maximum 1.267GHz on the enhanced Switch when they maxed out at 768MHz on the previous one (where its theoretical max was 921MHz). Unless I'm mistaken the info in the OP is stating that the new enhanced Switch runs its GPU at a higher profile than the previous Switch does, which was always going to be a choice by Nintendo that we would have no way of knowing just by looking at the hardware.

Also it mentions 8GB RAM support but it did not mention the RAM type. The old Switch uses LPDDR4, this uses LPDDR4X which is more efficient.
So we might be looking at 1 GHz docked speed vs the OG’s 768 MHz dock speed
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,008
but according to CNET "The Lite isn't a sequel to the Switch. It's more of a lower-cost spin-off. It'll also be the only new Nintendo Switch hardware this holiday, as Bowser says the larger Switch won't get an upgrade right now. But maybe that's exactly what's needed."

so, why would Bowser (lol) lie? besides that he's an evil guy and all that
He's a marketing guy
Nintendo said no revision days before dropping the New 3DS


People need to understand difference sources have different truthiness to them

Emily and WSJ are more.correct than Bowser who had a vested interest in not completely stalling Switch sales in the summer
So.of course he will be.vague and.say untrue things

You know that Dpad.joycon? My guess is that's coming too
 

Gurgelhals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
680
Ah I see, thanks for the info. So simply using a more energy efficient RAM should help increase the bandwidth by a noticable amount? Assuming it's clocked higher to take advantage of the increased efficiency?
Basically. The LPDDR4 RAM on the original Switch maxes out at 1600Mhz (25GB/sec bandwith on a 64bit DDR interface), while LPDDR4x goes up to 2133Mhz (33.3GB/sec) so they could keep the same bus configuration and simply use faster RAM to increase total memory bandwidth by up to 33% – i.e. a moderate performance bump in line with what can be expected from the CPU and the GPU.
 

skittzo0413

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,211
So we might be looking at 1 GHz docked speed vs the OG’s 768 MHz dock speed
Possibly. I'm thinking no more than like a 20-30% boost across the board. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was lower.

Basically. The LPDDR4 RAM on the original Switch maxes out at 1600Mhz (25GB/sec bandwith on a 64bit DDR interface), while LPDDR4x goes up to 2133Mhz (33.3GB/sec) so they could keep the same bus configuration and simply use faster RAM to increase total memory bandwidth by up to 33% – i.e. a moderate performance bump in line with what can be expected from the CPU and the GPU.
Gotcha, that makes sense. Thanks.

Is this right? Samsung provide 3GB (24gigabit) RAM modules, so I'm thinking the 6GB devkits would be using a pair of these instead of a strange setup using 3 chips.
Ah then either I read wrong or that person was wrong.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
979
Is this right? Samsung provide 3GB (24gigabit) RAM modules, so I'm thinking the 6GB devkits would be using a pair of these instead of a strange setup using 3 chips.
I think he's running off my guesses but the retail uses 2x2GB modules and it seems more plausible they'd try to maximize the amount of 2GB modules they purchase rather than buy a mix of 2 GB and and a small number of 3 GB chips just for the DevKits
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,613
I think he's running off my guesses but the retail uses 2x2GB modules and it seems more plausible they'd try to maximize the amount of 2GB modules they purchase rather than buy a mix of 2 GB and and a small number of 3 GB chips just for the DevKits
They support 3 different RAM suppliers so quite a mix already :D There is only one 6GB ID according to Switchbrew and it's a Samsung one.
What they use for the devkits don't have to be quite so cost effective as they're much more limited in quantity. I'm guessing they still cost a small fortune to devs too.
 
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Gurgelhals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
680
I think this should probably be noted also
Probably doesn't mean anything. All of Samsung's LPDDR4x RAM is fabricated on a 10nm process (in contrast to LPDDR4 RAM, which uses a 20nm process), hence the lower power draw. Mentioning 10nm seems quite redundant here...

It also clearly does not refer to the SoC. I think it's safe to assume that Mariko is produced on TSMC's mature 16nm process (the original Tegra X1 uses TSMC's 20nm process, which kind of sucked and wasn't much of an improvement to their 28nm process, so the jump to 16nm is actually quite significant despite the small numerical difference).
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,732
Do you guys think we could get a bigger battery? I think it’s 4300mah atm right?

It would probably get a boost without a bigger battery but if they’re shrinking components internally it would great if they added a bit more battery to it. I’d love to see 4-7 hours standard
 

Tathanen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,183
Tbh, XC2 is a phenomenal JRPG despite its technical shortcomings, I cannot recommend it enough, Switch Pro or not.

I hope that in the end you'll find a way to enjoy it! :)
For every post like this there is another one saying how XC2 is the worst RPG of the modern era or some shit like that. I've toyed with the notion that a Switch revision that ran XC2 at native or near-native res when handheld might convince me to finally pick it up, but with so much negative feedback regarding numerous non-performance-related elements of the game I doubt I ever will.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,093
Peru
For every post like this there is another one saying how XC2 is the worst RPG of the modern era or some shit like that. I've toyed with the notion that a Switch revision that ran XC2 at native or near-native res when handheld might convince me to finally pick it up, but with so much negative feedback regarding numerous non-performance-related elements of the game I doubt I ever will.
Really exaggerating the negative feedback that is always yelled by the same loud voices.
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,483
Wish they would do 4x1GB chips. Scale out baby! Get rid of that bottleneck!
That would be a 128-bit bus? I doubt the SoC would support it. Especially with how small of a package it is. It would also add to costs and be less power efficient.

Do you guys think we could get a bigger battery? I think it’s 4300mah atm right?

It would probably get a boost without a bigger battery but if they’re shrinking components internally it would great if they added a bit more battery to it. I’d love to see 4-7 hours standard
The stuff being shrunk internally would be on the PCB itself, and wouldn't effect the storage space for the battery.
 

skittzo0413

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,211
Do you guys think we could get a bigger battery? I think it’s 4300mah atm right?

It would probably get a boost without a bigger battery but if they’re shrinking components internally it would great if they added a bit more battery to it. I’d love to see 4-7 hours standard
AFAIK a die shrink from 20nm to 12nm wouldn't actually save any internal space. Maybe they'd be able to cut down on some of the heat sink though? Or use a smaller fan?
 

Tathanen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,183
Really exaggerating the negative feedback that is always yelled by the same loud voices.
No one ever really argues against it, tho. It's always stuff about how exploration and gate-locking field skills are god-awful, and how there are a bunch of sexist anime tropes, but any retorts are basically "yeah, that's true, but I still loved it." Those are a couple of critiques that really speak to me, so the fact that they're never really disagreed with, just pushed aside, doesn't fill me with confidence.

But this is certainly off topic, carry on thread.
 

Rand a. Thor

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,101
Greece
If it does use a smaller fan, then yeah they could increase the battery, but then we are talking about more than significant gains in battery life. I think both will be kept the same, and the modest spec bump will allow an almost docked handheld profile.
As for Bowser's Statement, a refreshed OG Switch isn't new hardware if you think about it. In any case, I feel this is gonna be a 2DS/New 3DS scenario, but in the same year. Randomly dropped Press Release for the Lite model, more formal Direct announcement for the refresh. I'm thinking September Direct after the Lite/Links Awakening come out, Late October/Early November Release.
 

KAG

Member
Sep 12, 2018
6
Nintendo didn't speak specs (as always) regarding the Switch Lite. However considering it also has a new SOC it should have better performance than the Original Switch. Also I believe all the improvement talk was saved for the Switch revision considering that's more of a selling point for that demographic.
 

skittzo0413

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,211
I thought it was confirmed no other hardware but Lite was coming this year?
That was never confirmed, just a dubious claim based on something Doug Bowser said that CNET never actually quoted.

And even if Bowser did say no other hardware this year:

1) this is more like a refresh and less like a revision
2) this is the same company that vehemently denied the existence of the 3DSXL 5 days before announcing it
 

Tron1

Member
Dec 23, 2017
4,658
Nintendo didn't speak specs (as always) regarding the Switch Lite. However considering it also has a new SOC it should have better performance than the Original Switch. Also I believe all the improvement talk was saved for the Switch revision considering that's more of a selling point for that demographic.
Makes so much sense. Never got the people saying even though newer and more efficient chip no performance gains. They would be idiots not to clock higher....with all that said this is Nintendo so you never know.
 

bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
527
SF Bay Area
That would be a 128-bit bus? I doubt the SoC would support it. Especially with how small of a package it is. It would also add to costs and be less power efficient.
I don't think the T210 SoC handles a 128 bit bus. Do we know how wide of a memory bus the T214 handles?

Given that the memory bandwidth has been one of the bottlenecks (as far as I understand), I'm hoping that they fix that for the revision.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,056
Keep in mind that developers make system calls which set the clock speeds. So even if a faster GPU is in the system, it's not likely to make any difference whatsoever on existing titles, and probably not new third party titles either unless Nintendo lets them do so, which I doubt would happen since this would be a stealth update.

They can't just make everything run faster, because that could break some games.
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,483
I don't think the T210 SoC handles a 128 bit bus. Do we know how wide of a memory bus the T214 handles?

Given that the memory bandwidth has been one of the bottlenecks (as far as I understand), I'm hoping that they fix that for the revision.
If any change is made in this setup, it would probably just be clockrate. More power efficient memory would allow for an easier overclock... but I wouldn't count on it or even if so it wouldn't be dramatically so.
 

bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
527
SF Bay Area

jaggies

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,106
Nintendo didn't speak specs (as always) regarding the Switch Lite. However considering it also has a new SOC it should have better performance than the Original Switch. Also I believe all the improvement talk was saved for the Switch revision considering that's more of a selling point for that demographic.
Makes so much sense. Never got the people saying even though newer and more efficient chip no performance gains. They would be idiots not to clock higher....with all that said this is Nintendo so you never know.
The Switch Lite gets better battery life with a much smaller battery. They went for efficiency gains, not performance gains. Which makes sense for that product.
 

Gurgelhals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
680
I don't think the T210 SoC handles a 128 bit bus. Do we know how wide of a memory bus the T214 handles?

Given that the memory bandwidth has been one of the bottlenecks (as far as I understand), I'm hoping that they fix that for the revision.
Tegra X1 has a 64bit bus, so Mariko would have to be a redesigned X1 and not just a die shrink. I wouldn't expect this to happen. After all, Nintendo didn't even bother to ask for a customized X1 in the first place; they just went ahead put a stock X1 in there despite the fact that this meant its ARM A53 cores would be unusable.
 

oni-link

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,357
UK
I would expect that they'll find a way to differentiate.

Like new packaging, or a marker like "64GB Storage" or "Longer Battery Life" or something.
So it's not likely out yet?

I'm going away in September and ideally I was going to pick up a Switch for then, but I was also waiting on a Pro model, so if this is the Pro model then I'll get a basic Switch if I can get an updated one and then maybe pick up a Lite in a few years time