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Oct 25, 2017
26,560
The "Pokemon is the biggest franchise in the world" thing is something people actually said and not a joke?

LMAO

oh god I needed this laugh
They really hard something to prove and I really don't know why.

"Everyone is underestimating it."
"It's gonna cut Endgames legs."
"Billion guaranteed."
"1.5 billion."
Clinging onto it's fresh RT rating is the last bastion of hope for some.

But hey, it's still the largest opening weekend for a video game movie. That's something. Maybe it can beat Warcraft worldwide.

And I like Pokemon and want to see it do well, I'm gonna go see it later tonight, but some of y'all just took it to a weird level.

Like what you like, sometimes others will like it to, sometimes they won't. Sometimes itll make money, sometimes it won't. Not like this is the end of the IP.
 
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Deleted member 32561

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you believe everything you read on wikipedia? That list seems tailor made to place Pokemon in that position, by intentionally splitting up things like the Marvel and DC universes into a number of arbitrary categories, excluding television revenue for things like star trek, etc.

you don't do this, and pokemon gets obliterated easily.
Using that logic, you should lump Mario and the rest of Nintendo in with Pokemon, lol.

They're not arbitrary. They're brands. Until the MCU, Spider-Man was far more recognizable than any other Marvel property or even Marvel itself. I imagine the average person doesn't even know what the fuck a DC is, but does know Batman and Superman. Winnie the Pooh is arguably more known than Disney itself in many parts of the world. And so on.

If they were arbitrary, then they wouldn't label big letters on the merch with the Spider-Man, or Pooh, or Hello Kitty label. They'd instead put Marvel, or Disney, or Sanrio, instead of relegating that labeling to a small corner or in much smaller text above the brand name itself.

TV Revenue is listed for Star Trek so IDK what you're talking about.

Pokemon is the biggest franchise in the world. That doesn't lead to box office smash hits, clearly, but it is a fact.

I think the jokes about DP "flopping" are kinda dumb too, as an aside. It's already a success. It's just not as big as a success as many thought it would be.
 

Deleted member 16452

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The people pointing out the problems are clearly looking at it solely from an American-centric perspective.

What does that have to do with that wiki article being badly sourced and super unreliable.

Someone else said it, there is a reason professors don't let you use Wiki as a source/reference in school or college.
 

Saucycarpdog

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Oct 25, 2017
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believe in the heart of the pokeballs
0ed.jpg
 

Deleted member 32561

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What does that have to do with that wiki article being badly sourced and super unreliable.
I mean, once someone says "how is Winnie the Pooh bigger than Star Wars?", they're clearly ignoring the fact Japan and China even exist. (Yes, Pooh was popular in China prior to Xi being a baby-man and banning him).
 

Muffin

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Oct 26, 2017
10,342
The people pointing out the problems are clearly looking at it solely from an American-centric perspective.
An American-centric perspective doesn't explain away completely missing revenue in that article like from print comic. It's incomplete at best.

Seperating Marvel Comics and the MCU makes about as much sense as separating Pokemon movies and the rest of the franchise. Might as well make a Pokemon Cinematic Universe entry at that point and seperate it from the rest.

And this is just a single issue with that page.
 

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I mean, once someone says "how is Winnie the Pooh bigger than Star Wars?", they're clearly ignoring the fact Japan and China even exist. (Yes, Pooh was popular in China prior to Xi being a baby-man and banning him).

Again, this doesn't explain the terrible sources the article uses.

Its a bad and unreliable article, just like a lot of wikipedia articles are.
 

Deleted member 32561

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An American-centric perspective doesn't explain away completely missing revenue in that article like from print comic. It's incomplete at best.
I'm not seeing comic sales missing for any comic-related brands except for Batman, which is as simple as it being lumped in with retail sales as home video was lumped in there too.
 

Muffin

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Oct 26, 2017
10,342
It isn't, because, again, regular old Marvel comics unlinked to the MCU AREN'T MCU. They're Spider-Man, or Avengers, or X-Men, or whatever else.

You may think it's dumb, but Marvel clearly doesn't.
Again, it makes as much sense as making a Pokemon and a PCU entry. Marvel didn't write that Wiki page and decided on those arbitrary distinctions.
 

Deleted member 32561

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Again, it makes as much sense as making a Pokemon and a PCU entry. Marvel didn't write that Wiki page and decided on those arbitrary distinctions.
Making an entire Marvel brand entry makes as much sense as making a Nintendo brand entry, and once you reach that point you aren't talking about franchises at all, but the companies themselves.
 

Deleted member 16452

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It isn't, because, again, regular old Marvel comics unlinked to the MCU AREN'T MCU. They're Spider-Man, or Avengers, or X-Men, or whatever else.

You may think it's dumb, but Marvel clearly doesn't.

Marvel didn't write that wikipedia article.

If we go by that same logic, then we need split Pokemon into different entries too, like all the Pikachu specific games, cartoons, toys. Then we do the same for any other Pokemon that had an individual thing made for them. We also need to separate the Pokemon video game universe, the pokemon cartoons, the Pokemon toys, and the Pokemon movies all into different entries.

This is why the wiki entry is BAD and means absolutely nothing, its nonsense.
 

Deleted member 32561

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Marvel didn't write that wikipedia article.

If we go by that same logic, then we need split Pokemon into different entries too, like all the Pikachu specific games, cartoons, toys. Then we do the same for any other Pokemon that had an individual thing made for them. We also need to separate the Pokemon video game universe, the pokemon cartoons, the Pokemon toys, and the Pokemon movies all into different entries.
That's not the same logic at all. Marvel is not a franchise. It's a company.
 

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Anyway, the movie itself is good, I hope it does well. $1 billion is a stupid expectation and always was, burn $400m-$500m will be a good way to kick a Pokémon Cinematic Universe off.
 

Deleted member 16452

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Anyway, the movie itself is good, I hope it does well. $1 billion is a stupid expectation and always was, burn $400m-$500m will be a good way to kick a Pokémon Cinematic Universe off.

Yea, people should just be happy they got a good Pokemon movie and that it will make a profit.

I don't understand the need to go into the insane territory some people go lol.
 

Manmademan

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Using that logic, you should lump Mario and the rest of Nintendo in with Pokemon, lol.

how often do pokemon appear in mario games? how long after mario was established did pikachu show up? Pokemon and Mario are two separate franchises owned by Nintendo. No one expects Kirby to show up in Metroid games either for the same reason. Those IP share nothing in common but an owner.

This is not the case for the marvel and DC universes- the characters are NOT separate and ARE highly dependent on each other. They exist in a common continuity and consumers expect them to cross over. The marvel and DC universes are not "brands" they're franchises that have been ongoing for decades.

Try to tell the entire history of Spiderman from 1963 to present without using the Avengers. You can't. Try to explain the history of the Xmen without mentioning Dr. Doom. You can't. Try to explain what the Justice League is without talking about Aquaman. impossible.

Spider-Man was far more recognizable than any other Marvel property or even Marvel itself. I imagine the average person doesn't even know what the fuck a DC is,

you have to be living in a cave to believe either one of these is true.

Winnie the Pooh is arguably more known than Disney itself in many parts of the world. And so on.

NOW you're trolling. Disney is far more well known as an entity than Winnie the Pooh will ever be. Disney is ubiquitous at this point. Everyone everywhere knows what Disney world is.

If they were arbitrary, then they wouldn't label big letters on the merch with the Spider-Man, or Pooh, or Hello Kitty label. They'd instead put Marvel, or Disney, or Sanrio, instead of relegating that labeling to a small corner or in much smaller text above the brand name itself.

ah, so you don't know how branding works? ok then.

TV Revenue is listed for Star Trek so IDK what you're talking about.

the TV revenue number from star trek if you click the link is from an article printed from 1998. There MAY have been a few significant series released since then, and this doesn't factor in syndication or streaming revenue. Hell, DVD wasn't even a thing when that article was printed for most of the US.

Pokemon is the biggest franchise in the world. That doesn't lead to box office smash hits, clearly, but it is a fact.

nowhere close. Pokemon moves video games and no one disputes that, but "largest media franchise" requires you move content in print, television, AND theatres, and Pokemon is completely incapable of moving the needle against something like Star Wars, Marvel, Star Trek, etc in any of these categories.

for instance- in 1966, Star Trek was watched by *28%* of America, and these ratings were low enough that it risked cancellation. There has never been any situation where 1 in 4 of the country was watching or playing Pokemon...ever.

Making things worse, 17 years after airing, the original 3 seasons of Star Trek were the most popular syndicated show in America- which is how TNG came about. Again- this will NEVER happen for Pokemon. It just isn't on that tier. And that's just STAR TREK. I wouldn't say THAT is the most popular media franchise either. Star Wars, Marvel, and DC are easily the top 3. They succeed no matter where you put them.

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/02/...ymbiosis-of-tv-and-movies.html?pagewanted=all
 
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Deleted member 249

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Yea, people should just be happy they got a good Pokemon movie and that it will make a profit.

I don't understand the need to go into the insane territory some people go lol.
Yup! The movie is a super cute, sweet one that fans will love, and I think it will do well enough for follow ups to be greenlit. I really hope they make more!
 

ReiGun

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Nov 15, 2017
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They really hard something to prove and I really don't know why.

"Everyone is underestimating it."
"It's gonna cut Endgames legs."
"Billion guaranteed."
"1.5 billion."
Clinging onto it's fresh RT rating is the last bastion of hope for some.

But hey, it's still the largest opening weekend for a video game movie. That's something. Maybe it can beat Warcraft worldwide.

And I like Pokemon and want to see it do well, I'm gonna go see it later tonight, but some of y'all just took it to a weird level.

Like what you like, sometimes others will like it to, sometimes they won't. Sometimes itll make money, sometimes it won't. Not like this is the end of the IP.
Eh, I don't think the fans are the only ones being weird about this. People in the review thread were practically giddy at the thought of it bombing and even in here people are taking weird umbrage at the thought of it being the biggest media franchise as if it matters one way or the other.

I don't know how a damn Pikachu movie became such a point of contention around here, but Era gon Era.
 

Deleted member 249

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Eh, I don't think the fans are the only ones being weird about this. People in the review thread were practically giddy at the thought of it bombing and even in here people are taking weird umbrage at the thought of it being the biggest media franchise as if it matters one way or the other.

I don't know how a damn Pikachu movie became such a point of contention around here, but Era gon Era.
It's because of the console wars involved, except now on with movies.

This movie is gonna do well enough. People expecting it to be a billion grosser, or expecting it to bomb, will have their balloons punctured.
 

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Our fatal mistake was thinking that the huge interest in the initial trailer would translate to interest in the movie, not just going viral because of the novelty of fluffy-ass Pikachu and friends in the real world but failing to get butts into seats
 

Deleted member 32561

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To be clear, I'm being a pedant about this because I hate when people try to deny facts clearly presented to them, especially people who can only ever see the world through the lens of an American or European, which people might not be doing, but is often the case when it comes to examining media and its relative popularity with a worldwide audience. I never thought Pokemon being big guaranteed Pikachu's success, previous Pokemon movies certainly were not, and I think those who thought it was the guarantor are pretty silly. My belief was solely founded on the hype I saw from, well, EVERYONE, and it was clearly just me being deceived by my own hype for it.

Try to tell the entire history of Spiderman from 1963 to present without using the Avengers. You can't. Try to explain the history of the Xmen without mentioning Dr. Doom. You can't. Try to explain what the Justice League is without talking about Aquaman. impossible.
And yet numerous movies, cartoons, and other spinoffs unrelated to the comics have done that. And THAT, my friend, is where a huge hunk of sales come from. Not comics fans, but people who watched Adam West Batman or the cartoon/Raimi Spider-Man.
you have to be living in a cave to believe either one of these is true.
I grew up in the 90s and early 00s. It's absolutely true. I had to explain to my Uncle, who was a big fan of the old Wonder Woman and Batman TV shows, what DC Comics was. This is lived experience.
NOW you're trolling. Disney is far more well known as an entity than Winnie the Pooh will ever be. Disney is ubiquitous at this point. Everyone everywhere knows what Disney world is.
Not trolling, being honest. That's not to say this is true in MOST territories. But there are many people in the world who know a given media franchise without knowing who owns them.
the TV revenue number from star trek if you click the link is from an article printed from 1998. There MAY have been a few significant series released since then, and this doesn't factor in syndication or streaming revenue. Hell, DVD wasn't even a thing when that article was printed for most of the US.
I did a google search to see if there were any more recent articles, twice (once before my first reply, once just now to double check), and... well, there aren't, and if there are, they're not easily accessible. It isn't the article writers' fault more recent data is not available.
nowhere close. Pokemon moves video games and no one disputes that, but "largest media franchise" requires you move content in print, television, AND theatres, and Pokemon is completely incapable of moving the needle against something like Star Wars, Marvel, Star Trek, etc in any of these categories.
Pokemon moves more content in areas Star Wars, Marvel and Star Trek (lol Star Trek) don't themselves. And who is the person who decided that you need to be successful in specific arenas, but that others don't count for some equally arbitrary reason?

Our fatal mistake was thinking that the huge interest in the initial trailer would translate to interest in the movie, not just going viral because of the novelty of fluffy-ass Pikachu and friends in the real world but failing to get butts into seats
Yep, that's... definitely part of it. D:
 
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Manmademan

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And yet numerous movies, cartoons, and other spinoffs unrelated to the comics have done that. And THAT, my friend, is where a huge hunk of sales come from. Not comics fans, but people who watched Adam West Batman or the cartoon/Raimi Spider-Man.

Funny you say this. you like the cartoon spiderman? because I like the cartoon spiderman. Especially THESE episodes:

"Enter the Punisher" is also based on the comic story "The Punisher Strikes Twice!" from The Amazing Spider-Man #129 (February 1974).
S2 Episode 17 "The Mutant Agenda" Features Beast, Professor X, Wolverine, and The X-men
S2 Episode 19 and 22 Feature Morbius the Living Vampire and Blade, Vampire Hunter
S 3 Episode 1 "Doctor Strange" features Dr. Strange and Baron Mordo
The "Secret Wars" trilogy adapts the 1984 limited series Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars (May 1984 to April 1985). starred The Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, Storm (from X-men), Red Skull, Iron Man, Beyonder, And Captain America.

you can't even explain the 90s Spidey CARTOON without mentioning everyone else in the marvel universe, let alone Spidey's entire history.

And that's not even the first significant Spidey cartoon. It was preceded among other things in the 1980s by "Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends" which starred Firestar (a mutant, later introduced to X-men...a standin for the human torch who was unusable due to license issues), and Iceman (also X-men). None of the Marvel Characters ever exist in a vacuum for long, because the universe doesn't work that way. It's understood that eventually other characters may show up.

Pokemon moves more content in areas Star Wars, Marvel and Star Trek (lol Star Trek) don't themselves. And who is the person who decided that you need to be successful in specific arenas, but that others don't count for some equally arbitrary reason?

The person that labeled this a 'media franchise' list, not a "videogame franchise" list. It's impossible to calculate the revenue brought in by a syndicated show like Trek that runs for 30 or 40 years without stopping, so if you can't do this, "biggest media franchise" isn't a claim you can lay title to without looking foolish.
 
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Theorymon

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Oct 25, 2017
1,376
Manmademan TBH I was basically parroting stuff I already heard, but yeah clealry there's some wack stuff with that Wikipedia article.

Sorry for that statement folks, clearly I should have probably researched that statement before making that, instead of repeating what seemed to be "common wisdom", not exatly a good display of critical thinking on my part! Thanks for letting me know!
 

Dekuman

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Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Anyway, the movie itself is good, I hope it does well. $1 billion is a stupid expectation and always was, burn $400m-$500m will be a good way to kick a Pokémon Cinematic Universe off.

I think the 1B was made up by crazy fans with spiteful anti-fans joining in to enjoy the meltdowns, but I don't see much of that. If anything Endgame's apparent underperformance this WE may upset some Marvel superfans.

Tracking last week was for 160 opening, with good legs its 800m, average legs is 500-600. As far as I can see it will land in the 150 opening range WW, which is close to tracking.

I think your 400 low end is on the low side, but that's still well above 2.5x budget to make a movie profitable and unlike say, Warcraft, it won't be majority China ticket sales, which means, it will actually be profitable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,588
Arizona
Using that logic, you should lump Mario and the rest of Nintendo in with Pokemon, lol.

They're not arbitrary. They're brands. Until the MCU, Spider-Man was far more recognizable than any other Marvel property or even Marvel itself. I imagine the average person doesn't even know what the fuck a DC is, but does know Batman and Superman. Winnie the Pooh is arguably more known than Disney itself in many parts of the world. And so on.

If they were arbitrary, then they wouldn't label big letters on the merch with the Spider-Man, or Pooh, or Hello Kitty label. They'd instead put Marvel, or Disney, or Sanrio, instead of relegating that labeling to a small corner or in much smaller text above the brand name itself.

TV Revenue is listed for Star Trek so IDK what you're talking about.

Pokemon is the biggest franchise in the world. That doesn't lead to box office smash hits, clearly, but it is a fact.

I think the jokes about DP "flopping" are kinda dumb too, as an aside. It's already a success. It's just not as big as a success as many thought it would be.
Even taking out the flaws you're ignoring or outright denying exist, the statistic is "franchise with the highest all-time revenue generated across all income sources" which is fairly meaningless statistic. It doesn't tell you anything about say, audience size. For example, the audience of the Pokémon RPGs is about 16 million people worldwide. The Incredible Hulk did 18 million tickets domestically alone, and Solo did over 20 million. Those were franchise lows. It also ignores the relative lengths these things are around for or how active they are. Like, Star Wars is 19 years older than Pokémon, but from '83 to '97 it was basically dormant outside of novels and whatnot. From 2006-2014 it was basically just Clone Wars and Force Unleashed. Meanwhile Pokémon has been consistently generating revenue across games and anime and cards every year.
 

Mortemis

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
Nominating this as the collective avatar of the FOR betters if when Detective Pikachu fails to gross 1B:

FzGOlNW.png

I voted for like the dumbass I usually am, but missed out on the deadline.

If this is the avi the losers rocking then I may still rock it myself. It's so damn good.

❤️ Digimon.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,032
Endgame killed pikachu.

I'm ok with it. They can always try again.

No, being a mediocre movie that only appealed to the fans killed it. Endgame didn't help, but there were far bigger problems for the film.
Our fatal mistake was thinking that the huge interest in the initial trailer would translate to interest in the movie, not just going viral because of the novelty of fluffy-ass Pikachu and friends in the real world but failing to get butts into seats

Its Snakes on a Plane all over again.
 
May 10, 2018
5,676
They really hard something to prove and I really don't know why.

"Everyone is underestimating it."
"It's gonna cut Endgames legs."
"Billion guaranteed."
"1.5 billion."
Clinging onto it's fresh RT rating is the last bastion of hope for some.

But hey, it's still the largest opening weekend for a video game movie. That's something. Maybe it can beat Warcraft worldwide.

And I like Pokemon and want to see it do well, I'm gonna go see it later tonight, but some of y'all just took it to a weird level.

Like what you like, sometimes others will like it to, sometimes they won't. Sometimes itll make money, sometimes it won't. Not like this is the end of the IP.
Yeah a lot of these predictions were crazy.
 

Dekuman

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Oct 27, 2017
19,026
1B is a high bar. If it makes half that it would be a hit. I think it will depend on. It's reception but 700m range WW is most likely if it is received well.

My bet didn't get counted but here's my post upthread. Looks like i'll end up being right, even if my 700m (if received well) looks optimistic now.
 

Deleted member 249

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I'm not understanding this rhetoric that Detective Pikachu was "killed" (well, I get it coming from some folks whose agendas I know from the gaming side), nor of it being mediocre. At worst it's an above average movie.
 

Keldroc

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Oct 27, 2017
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you have to be living in a cave to believe either one of these is true.

What? They're both undeniably true. Spider-Man is the most recognizable Marvel character and has been since the '60s cartoon, and has sold and appeared in more merch tie-ins than any other superhero, including Batman. Most people have no idea what DC Comics is, they just know Batman and Wonder Woman. Many of my normally media-savvy friends have asked me if Batman might show up in the MCU at some point. 99% of the population has no idea DC and Marvel are separate things; comics are a tiny, tiny market that almost nobody cares about or pays attention to.
 

Manmademan

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What? They're both undeniably true. Spider-Man is the most recognizable Marvel character and has been since the '60s cartoon, and has sold and appeared in more merch tie-ins than any other superhero, including Batman. Most people have no idea what DC Comics is, they just know Batman and Wonder Woman. Many of my normally media-savvy friends have asked me if Batman might show up in the MCU at some point. 99% of the population has no idea DC and Marvel are separate things; comics are a tiny, tiny market that almost nobody cares about or pays attention to.

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc are well known to be DC comics properties. even if you ONLY watch the movies, the DC comics branding has been all over batman movies since at least Batman 89.

Spiderman is similarly known to be a Marvel Character for the same reason. Everywhere he appears the MARVEL branding isn't far behind- and print comics is at least a Billion a year industry in the US alone- outgrossing just about every blockbuster film you can name each year, every year. Domestic.
 

Manmademan

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Even taking out the flaws you're ignoring or outright denying exist, the statistic is "franchise with the highest all-time revenue generated across all income sources" which is fairly meaningless statistic. It doesn't tell you anything about say, audience size. For example, the audience of the Pokémon RPGs is about 16 million people worldwide. The Incredible Hulk did 18 million tickets domestically alone, and Solo did over 20 million. Those were franchise lows. It also ignores the relative lengths these things are around for or how active they are. Like, Star Wars is 19 years older than Pokémon, but from '83 to '97 it was basically dormant outside of novels and whatnot. From 2006-2014 it was basically just Clone Wars and Force Unleashed. Meanwhile Pokémon has been consistently generating revenue across games and anime and cards every year.

exactly.
 

Theorymon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,376
If this conversation is teaching me anything, it's that extrapolating statistics too far, comparing wildly different kinds of statistics with each other, and putting forth useless statistics with messy organization is a really easy fallacy to fall into. I didn't expect a silly thread about an avatar bet for detective pikachu would make me think that!
 
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