Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]

[~Fake]

Again?
Some of us get bored saying the same thing over and over again.
How do you do it? Do you just copy and paste what you already said in the preview thread, and in the review thread, in the kotaku thread, and in the Waypoint one.

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Have to agree with you. Kinda boring keep hearing the same thing every thread. Gonna repeat what I sayed in the preview topic. I love talk about the strenghts and weaks of Detroit (Detroit have heavy issues, but its a fair game for 7/10), but this crtl+c crtl+v every topic only show the hate David Cage recieve. I always tryed to stay away from those topics (that reddit Detroit FAQ) for not get a thread whining warn, but really hard keep hearing all this hate. Hate David, not the game. He don't write the game alone.

 

[Bossking]

Did I complain that people are thinking critically about it? I said I don't find it offensive and wish people would stop speaking for me/people of color because of their own offense/issues with the game.

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Just because people are talking about a game you like, it doesn't mean people are talking to you or for you. You entered this thread. You inserted yourself into the conversation. You're also ignoring the other people of color in this thread who do have problems with the game.

Like, seriously. If you don't care, leave. You'll feel better for it.

 

[Plum]

This is a good question. I'm guessing the guy who made the video thinks the world would be a better place if Cage was never allowed to make videogames; and those are his reasons.

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If you're coming at this discussion from such a conspiratorial angle then of course people are going to seem irrational. Criticising something =/= wanting the creator to suffer.

 

[Compbros]

None of those scenarios matter in the slightest because Quantic Dream chose to give those characters the races they have, they didn't choose to switch the races or have them both be the same race.

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Quantic Dream saw it (tales from my ass) as two robots arguing about how they should go about liberating their kind. One had white skin and, throughout the game, wants to go a violent route because of pent up resentment of humans. One had black skin and, throughout the game, wants to go about it peacefully as he doesn't believe violence will solve anything. That's how I took it, not "the white person telling the black person they don't deserve freedom if they're not gonna fight for it" but one robot telling another.

 

[joe_zazen]

If you're coming at this discussion from such a conspiratorial angle then of course people are going to seem irrational. Criticising something =/= wanting the creator to suffer.

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if that were true, the criticism would not be personal, and a fair chunk of it is.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

"David Cage said his game about starting a race riot in a city that has famously had two race riots is really just about robots"

MAH GAWD

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Seriously.

"We're a non-violent revolution."
*less than a second later*
"One of our members made a dirty bomb."

 

[Crossing Eden]

Did I complain that people are thinking critically about it? I said I don't find it offensive and wish people would stop speaking for me/people of color because of their own offense/issues with the game.

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Ever consider that you aren't the only POC in existence? There are multiple PoC, even in this thread, that take issue with the material for more than exceptionally well explained reasons that "mysteriously" never get refuted. Like at that point, you might as well admit that the allegory itself is poorly handed. You can't ignore the allegories made in the game because the game itself doesn't ignore them right down to having a black woman say that her race was treated the same way as the androids. Like if your response to the video or the various think pieces is "but can't i turn my brain off and ignore how poorly it handles it's subject material if i'm personally entertained" then your issue stems from the fact that other people aren't doing that.

 

[joe_zazen]

Ever consider that you aren't the only POC in existence? There are multiple PoC, even in this thread, that take issue with the material for more than exceptionally well explained reasons that "mysteriously" never get refuted.

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just out of curiousity, do you think the world would be a better place if Cage never made any video games?

 

[Compbros]

Just because people are talking about a game you like, it doesn't mean people are talking to you or for you. You entered this thread. You inserted yourself into the conversation. You're also ignoring the other people of color in this thread who do have problems with the game.

Like, seriously. If you don't care, leave. You'll feel better for it.

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People talk about it being patronizing to people of color, so this can be seen as talking for me as a person of color, how tone deaf it is in certain scenes, some of which I disagree with, and I've also said I understand why people have problems because some of it is really heavy handed and laughable. I haven't attacked anyone nor dismissed anyone's feelings, I'm merely debating and discussing a different point of view.

I enjoy discussion so I'm staying, thanks.

 

[Plum]

Quantic Dream saw it (tales from my ass) as two robots arguing about how they should go about liberating their kind. One had white skin and, throughout the game, wants to go a violent route because of pent up resentment of humans.]

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This is essentially an "I don't see race" argument, but In a story about civil rights with allusions to the real-life civil rights having an "argument" like that makes it very difficult for people to not see an issue in it.

One had black skin and, throughout the game, wants to go about it peacefully as he doesn't believe violence will solve anything. That's how I took it, not "the white person telling the black person they don't deserve freedom if they're not gonna fight for it" but one robot telling another.

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But she literally tells the black person they don't deserve freedom if they're not gonna fight for it. She's not saying "violence will be more effectual than pacifism", she's literally saying what you said she isn't saying.

if that were true, the criticism would not be personal, and a fair chunk of it is.

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Again, personal criticism =/= wanting the person to suffer. You're creating this narrative in your head that detractors of Cage's work are trying to take him down instead of simply criticising the games and stories he's had direct control over. If you're harassing the guy or making insults directed personally at him then, yeah, that's bad, but discussing his work (and it is his work) and the failings of it is nowhere near equal to that.[/QUOTE]

 

[Crossing Eden]

just out of curiousity, do you think the world would be a better place if Cage never made any video games?

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Arguably we need David Cage games as an example of what not to do when writing stories as well as the fact that his games are a constant reminder of how far behind the video game industry is when it comes to storytelling despite all the pretenses like photorealistic visuals, decent camera work, occasionally exceptional scene composition, and hard work of the actors, composers etc.

 

[Hektor]

The best part about the games racial allegories was, when the Androids weren't just standins for black people during the time of slavery in the U.S, but also for jewish ones during the holocaust with actual concentration camps, "recycling" chambers and mass graves.

"David Cage's Auschwitz" is something i never knew i wanted and now with certainty know i never wanted.

May god bless David De Gruttola Cage

 

[Compbros]

Ever consider that you aren't the only POC in existence? There are multiple PoC, even in this thread, that take issue with the material for more than exceptionally well explained reasons that "mysteriously" never get refuted. Like at that point, you might as well admit that the allegory itself is poorly handed. You can't ignore the allegories made in the game because the game itself doesn't ignore them right down to having a black woman say that her race was treated the same way as the androids. Like if your response to the video or the various think pieces is "but can't i turn my brain off and ignore how poorly it handles it's subject material if i'm personally entertained" then your issue stems from the fact that other people aren't doing that.

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And I've said that I understand why people feel that way.

Boredom isn't offense, it's boredom. I'm talking about comments based on the game, not the video. People find it offensive or feel like people should find it offensive, I don't. I understand why they do, there's some truly heavy handed stuff in there that's laughable.

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I'm speaking purely for myself, not other persons of color, just me. When someone says a game is "patronizing to persons of color" they're not just talking about themselves but us as a whole and I disagree with it.

What does those other "mysteriously never refuted" points have to do with me? I am refuting, agreeing with, or arguing everything that people are saying to me. What other people are arguing or ignoring has nothing to do with me.

I don't "ignore" the allegories, they don't bother me. They don't add or subtract to my enjoyment of the game.

Is that my argument? Since when? Because I said I can't enjoy the media for what it is? I already agreed with you that no one ever said that so I took that argument off the table.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

I saw this Twitter thread the other day and had to go sleep. Seems I was right to avoid another DC game.

 

[Plum]

The best part about the games racial allegories was, when the Androids weren't just standins for black people during the time of slavery in the U.S, but also for jewish ones during the holocaust with actual concentration camps, "recycling" chambers and mass graves.

"David Cage's Auschwitz" is something i never knew i wanted and now with certainty know i never wanted.

May god bless David De Gruttola Cage

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I didn't get those scenes but from what I've seen (i.e. Youtube after the fact) they're a good microcosm of the game's issues with allegory and imagery. This is a massive under-explanation but the real-life Holocaust was a long process aimed at scapegoating, dehumanising, and finally 'exterminating' a group due to deep-rooted biases and hatred in German (and global) society at the time; the explanation behind Detroit's holocaust essentially boils down to "the humans were scared."

 

[Kimaris]

Its not a good video game, and if its tackling subjects that I experience in my day to day because the color of my skin poorly, I and others will shit on it.

I'm not a fucking robot

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What subjects would those be? Are you Black in America? We're not forced into servitude anymore. I don't see many parallels in Detroit that could apply to anything that you experience in your "day to day".

It seems like some of y'all really think that Cage went to his team and said " Hey everybody, lets make a game about the Black American experience, except lets replace the Black people with Androids. Voila!".

I've seen some of the strangest takes when it comes to this game

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

Oh god, this game is the gift that just keeps giving. Legitimately had to laugh so hard at scenes in this game.

It's so bad. The Connor stuff tread old ground but it was very entertaining. Cage tackles serious topics with the nuance of truck.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Despite the heavy handedness the game deals with its imagery which is really a good point of criticism, in the end I think Detroit is a positive thing for the gaming landscape overall because it promotes such a great diversity of cast of all types in an AAA space, which is quite rare these days.

 

[Plum]

What subjects would those be? Are you Black in America? We're not forced into servitude anymore. I don't see many parallels in Detroit that could apply to anything that you experience in your "day to day".

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Marcus, a black android, has his inciting incident when two police officers profile him, wrongly accuse him of a crime he didn't commit, and shoot him in the head.

 

[Transistor]

Despite the heavy handedness the game deals with its imagery which is really a good point of criticism, in the end I think Detroit is a positive thing for the gaming landscape overall because it promotes such a great diversity of cast of all types in an AAA space, which is quite rare these days.

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I agree with this completely

 

[Compbros]

This is essentially an "I don't see race" argument, but In a story about civil rights with allusions to the real-life civil rights having an "argument" like that makes it very difficult for people to not see an issue in it.

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I don't think they considered the race implications of that or certain other scenes. If both were black I think people would be fine with it, if both were skinless I think they'd be fine with it, because the one arguing about "maybe you don't deserve your freedom if you're not fighting" is White people find issue with it. I didn't think it was a problem because it's people arguing ideology that happen to have different skin. Not to mention they're wearing false skin. But I get why people found issue with it considering there is clear inspiration from Civil Rights and you have this white girl telling a black guy he doesn't deserve freedom with his methods.

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

Oh my god remember that scene where Marcus looks at the statue of the android founder and goes "WE ARE SUPERIOR TO HOOMANZ BUT THEY ENSLAVE US"

I fucking choked on my biscuit at that.

Like what the fuck kinda message are you trying to sell me Cage?

Never eat lunch watching Cage games kids.

 

[Wulfram]

I'd rather video games try to tackle tough subjects and fail, than avoid them.

 

[Plum]

I don't think they considered the race implications of that or certain other scenes. If both were black I think people would be fine with it, if both were skinless I think they'd be fine with it, because the one arguing about "maybe you don't deserve your freedom if you're not fighting" is White people find issue with it. I didn't think it was a problem because it's people arguing ideology that happen to have different skin. Not to mention they're wearing false skin. But I get why people found issue with it considering there is clear inspiration from Civil Rights and you have this white girl telling a black guy he doesn't deserve freedom with his methods.

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Again, those other scenarios don't matter in the slightest because the developers themselves chose to make those characters into the race they are in game. Would it be better? Maybe, I'm not in the position to say, but I don't think anyone has to say to justify why they don't like the content that actually exists.

 

[dreamlongdead]

It's interesting that this is the game that is actually prompting YouTubers to discuss race in the first place.

These reactions make one question if the vocal outrage over the race allegories is actually genuine or just an excuse to peg David Cage.

Even if he does suck, at least he's doing something different. We wouldn't even be discussing heavy topics without this game.

I think the better approach would be to offer constructive criticism and tell him and other writers how they could have pushed the message in a more subtle and unique way.

I definitely don't want to see developers shy away from tackling race and more just because the execution was botched by a few like Levine and Cage who had the courage to even address it.

Detroit is commercially successful and has good word of mouth, so QD has more chances to really improve and avoid the pitfalls of previous works.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And I've said that I understand why people feel that way.

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Then get over the persecution complex if you understand the issue.

What subjects would those be? Are you Black in America? We're not forced into servitude anymore. I don't see many parallels in Detroit that could apply to anything that you experience in your "day to day".

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Don't you fucking dare. Markus's inciting incident is literally him being unjustly shot by a white police man. America is still suffering so heavily from the effects of the slave era that white people can and do harass PoC on a literal daily basis for even the most benign of things, like driving down the wrong street:


PoC are literally being dehumanized on a daily basis by our presidency, and the media, to the point where a man on national television felt emboldened enough to say "womp womp" in response to a 10 year old being separated from their mother . Race issues are still an incredibly prominent aspect of the day by day life in America. Are we slaves? No, but we're still suffering from the effects of slavery.

 

[Deleted member 35011]

Then game isn't great at racial allegories, yeah. The game is at its best when it tries to be a straight up sci-fi story with Connor and has a machine slowly question concepts up until its learning mechanisms conflict with its programming. It's a great, emotional story, and I got really attached to both Connor and Hank.

Markus' story doesn't work for me for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is just that...robots aren't a 1-to-1 to racism. Like, at all. Maybe the story could've worked really hard to try to draw a parallel or two, but the story lives and dies on this comparison and it really doesn't do nearly enough to justify it.

 

[Compbros]

Again, those other scenarios don't matter in the slightest because the developers themselves chose to make those characters into the race they are in game. Would it be better? Maybe, I'm not in the position to say, but I don't think anyone has to say to justify why they don't like the content that actually exists.

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No, no one needs to justify why they don't like the content there. I don't think people need to justify anything beyond truly despicable actions/statements. People are free to like and dislike things for various reasons.


May I ask this to anyone willing to answer: Do you believe Detroit: Become Human is harmful to current or past black issues?

 

[Francesco]

I said it once, i said it a million times.
Game's fine. Stop complaining.

I saw this Twitter thread the other day and had to go sleep. Seems I was right to avoid another DC game.

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The rant on the quality of writing becomes actually more hilarious as you read it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Game's fine. Stop complaining.

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Excellent rhetoric that clearly represents critical thinking. Surely all the discussion will halt now. Just like how in twenty years racism will be over.

 

[Compbros]

Then get over the persecution complex if you understand the issue.

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Someone goes "this patronizes people of color", I go "it doesn't patronize me but I get why it would for others". Persecution complex.

 

[Xbox Live Mike]

Game is fine imo, not perfect but very enjoyable. I agree about the

Spoiler: plot

dirty bomb

I held on to it in case she went crazy.

 

[Plum]

It's interesting that this is the game that is actually prompting YouTubers to discuss race in the first place.

These reactions make one question if the vocal outrage over the race allegories is actually genuine or just an excuse to peg David Cage.

Even if he does suck, at least he's doing something different. We wouldn't even be discussing heavy topics without this game.

I think the better approach would be to offer constructive criticism and tell him and other writers how they could have pushed the message in a less subtle and more unique way.

I definitely don't want to see developers shy away from tackling race and more just because the execution was botched by a few like Levine and Cage who had the courage to even address it.

Detroit is commercially successful and has good word of mouth, so QD has more chances to really improve and avoid the pitfalls of previous works.

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That's the thing, the game doesn't tackle race or race issues, it uses the imagery of those issues as scenery to tell an unrelated story. Outside of that, criticism should not be discouraged in the same way as tackling important issues shouldn't be discouraged; it should, in fact, be encouraged because there is no way the medium is going to get better at tackling those issues if we leave the bar of acceptance at "it uses the imagery." Seeing this as an excuse to get some irrational hatred of David Cage out there is a narrative that's entirely in your head, especially since none of these criticisms are about the man himself and more the work he directed.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Someone goes "this patronizes people of color", I go "it doesn't patronize me but I get why it would for others". Persecution complex.

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No, the persecution complex is "Ugh, why are so many people telling me that I should be offended." The point is this, even if you personally take no issue with use of the imagery and history in the game, then that doesn't mean that it handles these things well and that it isn't patronizing.

That's the thing, the game doesn't tackle race or race issues, it uses the imagery of those issues as scenery to tell an unrelated story. Outside of that, criticism should not be discouraged in the same way as tackling important issues shouldn't be discouraged; it should, in fact, be encouraged because there is no way the medium is going to get better at tackling those issues if we leave the bar of acceptance at "it uses the imagery." Seeing this as an excuse to get some irrational hatred of David Cage out there is a narrative that's entirely in your head, especially since none of these criticisms are about the man himself and more the work he directed.

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^^^^

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

The best part about the games racial allegories was, when the Androids weren't just standins for black people during the time of slavery in the U.S, but also for jewish ones during the holocaust with actual concentration camps, "recycling" chambers and mass graves.

"David Cage's Auschwitz" is something i never knew i wanted and now with certainty know i never wanted.

May god bless David De Gruttola Cage

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It doesn't make any sense in the story too.

Despite the heavy handedness the game deals with its imagery which is really a good point of criticism, in the end I think Detroit is a positive thing for the gaming landscape overall because it promotes such a great diversity of cast of all types in an AAA space, which is quite rare these days.

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I mean that's one positive. Minority actors getting hired is always a good thing.

I'd rather video games try to tackle tough subjects and fail, than avoid them.

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Okay? This game can certainly be a lesson for others on how to be consistent with your message.

 

[Jolkien]

I agree with the video and despite that I really had a good time playing throught it. Jeff once again is on point with his criticism.

 

[Francesco]

Excellent rhetoric that clearly represents critical thinking. Surely all the discussion will halt now. Just like how in twenty years racism will be over.

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There has been a ton of threads exactly like this one.
Game's French, not made with a US mentality and light-footed approach.
Most of the complains on clichè writing are obviously correct, but from that to "it's insulting to humanity" is a gigantic step.

 

[Chumunga64]

Excellent rhetoric that clearly represents critical thinking. Surely all the discussion will halt now. Just like how in twenty years racism will be over.

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What is it about David Cage that makes people defend such odd writing? I love FFXV to death but I'll be the first to tell you how the game's writing is sub par.

 

[Compbros]

No, the persecution complex is "Ugh, why are so many people telling me that I should be offended." The point is this, even if you personally take no issue with use of the imagery and history in the game, then that doesn't mean that it handles these things well and that it isn't patronizing.

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Because people HAVE told me I should be and I've already explained the reason I brought it up in this thread. Again, did I not say some things were heavy handed and laughable? Did I not say I get why people would be? When people say "people of color" that includes me and I want to argue that it doesn't include me. Is that irrational?

 

[Wiseblood]

I'd rather video games try to tackle tough subjects and fail, than avoid them.

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And when a game fails I'd rather people discuss its failure and how other games can do better.

 

[Laughing Banana]

What is it about David Cage that makes people defend such odd writing? I love FFXV to death but I'll be the first to tell you how the game's writing is sub par.

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LOL people defend things that they like, well duh. It's not like you can't find a FFXV fan claiming its writing is amazing or anything.

 

[dreamlongdead]

That's the thing, the game doesn't tackle race or race issues, it uses the imagery of those issues as scenery to tell an unrelated story. Outside of that, criticism should not be discouraged in the same way as tackling important issues shouldn't be discouraged; it should, in fact, be encouraged because there is no way the medium is going to get better at tackling those issues if we leave the bar of acceptance at "it uses the imagery." Seeing this as an excuse to get some irrational hatred of David Cage out there is a narrative that's entirely in your head, especially since none of these criticisms are about the man himself and more the work he directed.

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Why are you pretending as if there is no agenda against Cage?

I've been following the drama surrounding this game's development and just the general discussion surrounding Cage. I've never seen a developer consistently draw so much ire from both the gaming press and enthusiast community.

It's not like I love the guy or anything. Maybe the anger is warranted or it isn't, but you can't really say it isn't there.

As far as the game goes, the civil rights stuff is sloppy. There is a case that the game could have been much better without that aspect, but I also don't see evidence that it really killed the experience for most people either.

 

[Kimaris]

Markus' story doesn't work for me for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is just that...robots aren't a 1-to-1 to racism. Like, at all. Maybe the story could've worked really hard to try to draw a parallel or two, but the story lives and dies on this comparison and it really doesn't do nearly enough to justify it.

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Why does it need to be 1-to-1? The androids woke up and decided they didn't want to work for free anymore, they don't need any justification beyond that to start a revolution.

 

[Nanashrew]

There has been a ton of threads exactly like this one.
Game's French, not made with a US mentality and light-footed approach.
Most of the complains on clichè writing are obviously correct, but from that to "it's insulting to humanity" is a gigantic step.

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Yet they used Detroit of all places for their location of the game. A place known for its racial riots and being one of the last stops on the underground railroad for slaves fleeing to Canada. Something a few characters are trying to do.

 

[Chumunga64]

LOL people defend things that they like, well duh. It's not like you can't find a FFXV fan claiming its writing is amazing or anything.

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You got me there, LOL. I have heard people un-ironically say Luna was a good character

 

[Plum]

Why are pretending as if there is no agenda against Cage?

I've been following the drama surrounding this game's development and just the general discussion surrounding Cage. I've never seen a developer consistently draw so much ire from both the gaming press and enthusiast community.

It's not like I love the guy or anything. Maybe the anger is warranted or it isn't, but you can't really dismiss it's there.

As far as the game goes, the civil rights stuff is sloppy. There is a case that the game could have been much better without that aspect, but I also don't see evidence that it really killed the experience for most people either.

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I agree, some people have gone a little too far, but what I'm taking issue with is you painting that agenda on to someone simply criticising the game. It's a very easy way to deflect criticism and make others seem irrational when they're really not. If you can't prove that the maker of the video is using his criticism as a way to hate on Cage then I'll agree with you, but right now, that narrative is still only in your head.

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

There has been a ton of threads exactly like this one.
Game's French, not made with a US mentality and light-footed approach.
Most of the complains on clichè writing are obviously correct, but from that to "it's insulting to humanity" is a gigantic step.

Click to shrink...

Wat.

LUL.

LOL people defend things that they like, well duh. It's not like you can't find a FFXV fan claiming its writing is amazing or anything.

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There's a difference between being a fan and being a blind fan though.

 

[ryseing]

Game's French, not made with a US mentality and light-footed approach.

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It's set in America though, specifically in a city known for its racial history. It also draws upon the past and modern day issues of race in this country.

Those are deliberate choices that need to be approached delicately, and Cage clearly couldn't handle it.

 

[Bakercat]

Oh god, this game is the gift that just keeps giving. Legitimately had to laugh so hard at scenes in this game.

It's so bad. The Connor stuff tread old ground but it was very entertaining. Cage tackles serious topics with the nuance of truck.

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But the feels man! It doesn't matter how the story and characters are written, just the feels! /s

The part where Kara frees the trapped androids and they say, "they call us monsters, but they are the real monsters" made me bust out screaming and laughing cause I knew it was coming. You can predict his writing from a mile away.

 

[nib95]

As a black person, no one is telling you to be offended, what they are telling you however, is to think more critically about the media you consume. Come up with your own conclusion after the fact.

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This is a somewhat condescending and arrogant post. So now, as a black man, if he isn't offended, or doesn't dislike or critique these allegories, and voices his opinion about that, and the fact that he feels people on here often push the narrative that if you're not offended you're not thinking critically, he's somehow not thinking critically about the media he consumes?

Do you realise how ironic your post is? You basically just proved his point exactly.