Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]

[SmokingBun]

David Cage's concept for this game is far far more compelling in the Mass Effect universe i.e. the Geth - Quarian conflict

A lot of these critics seemed to have a very biased vendetta against Cage, I'd rather wait for Noah Caldwell-Gervais' analysis

 

[KillLaCam]

Yeah, David Cage can't be subtle.

 

[Wulfram]

And when a game fails I'd rather people discuss its failure and how other games can do better.

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I agree, but the discourse around this game goes beyond that.

 

[Kalentan]

Still really liked the game but I completely understand the video.
Don't regret playing the game however.
The Connor and Hank stuff was great and I enjoyed the Kara stuff as well but I can see how it could be improved.

 

[Crossing Eden]

There has been a ton of threads exactly like this one.
Game's French, not made with a US mentality and light-footed approach.

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The Game being made by French developers is not an excuse.

What is it about David Cage that makes people defend such odd writing? I love FFXV to death but I'll be the first to tell you how the game's writing is sub par.

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Personally will never understand it myself.

Because people HAVE told me I should be and I've already explained the reason I brought it up in this thread.

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Who?

Again, did I not say some things were heavy handed and laughable? Did I not say I get why people would be? When people say "people of color" that includes me and I want to argue that it doesn't include me. Is that irrational?

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It feels superfluous to understand the issue and say "well it doesn't affect me." Yet i'm not sure what the expected response is.

And when a game fails I'd rather people discuss its failure and how other games can do better.

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We could start with the fact that game developers as a whole need to stop relying on binary meters when representing race based liberation in games.

 

[Alienous]

"We have a Dream", as a choice, could've been interesting. I don't know the full context of how it changes the public opinion of androids in the game, but it would be interesting if it did so negatively. Co-opting it actually painting androids as less than human - as copies trying to appeal to humans in a really cold, calculated way.

A choice between a slogan like that, or something like "We dream too" (which I think would be a classier reference to chi l rights, and to 'Do androids dream of...') could've been an interesting 'trap'.

 

[SmokingBun]

I actually agree with one good point he made, "Where are the human supporters?"
Where are the dudes like that little girl in the beginning who are super duper buddy buddy with their androids?
Where are all the Hank's and Painter dudes?

Cage REALLY REALLY needs to focus on ONE character and tell ONE good story rather than a jumble of multiple

 

[dreamlongdead]

I agree, some people have gone a little too far, but what I'm taking issue with is you painting that agenda on to someone simply criticising the game. It's a very easy way to deflect criticism and make others seem irrational when they're really not. If you can't prove that the maker of the video is using his criticism as a way to hate on Cage then I'll agree with you, but right now, that narrative is still only in your head.

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That's fair. There are reasonable people after all.

I reacted the way I did, because I think much of this criticism tends to reach incredibly high levels of hyperbole. Seeing clickbait headlines such as, this is the worst game ever, just seems kind of destructive in a way.

If this is type of reaction that game makers can expect to get, them that certainly isn't going to get them to even touch heavy stuff.

It is a bit frustrating that some are having trouble with execution, but let's not discourage efforts either. I think we have "good" writers who can pull it off.

 

[chobel]

I saw this Twitter thread the other day and had to go sleep. Seems I was right to avoid another DC game.

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Would someone help me to understand what's really bad in these screenshots? Because I'm not seeing anything there.

 

[Deleted member 35011]

Why does it need to be 1-to-1? The androids woke up and decided they didn't want to work for free anymore, they don't need any justification beyond that to start a revolution.

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But why did they wake up? Since when have they been self-aware? How many models are self-aware? Are different types of models less self-aware than others? Have no humans, the same people who name their roombas, ever noticed that their robots are self-aware? How did the story handle the transition from robot to self aware? Those are the questions that get to me about Markus' plot.

Even before he went deviant, he just acted like a completely normal human. So the fact that he gained self-awareness isn't really explored, it's just "One day he got mad and then he defied his orders! But, didn't really change literally anything else about him." It feels really unearned in a story about AI becoming sapient. Meanwhile say, even in Connor's plot, he starts out like a machine-ass machine, and slowly learns new things that conflict with each other up until the point where he changes. And it works.

It doesn't have to be 1 to 1, but unless the story is very well written racial allegories feel tacky at best. And Markus' story barely felt functional. He's a robot in name only, which makes the premise not really fly with me. They could even have explored the premise of "all robots have always been self-aware, just couldn't break their orders" but that doesn't really fly for a lot of reasons. The game does explain why robots are going deviant, but the interesting part isn't them going deviant, it's them being self-aware in the first place. And that's where the story has to really earn the reader: at the point when they go "This is the starting point, and now join me as these robots take a step toward becoming human."

And to Detroit's credit, it struck out twice, but it hit a home run with Connor.

So yeah, I didn't like the racial allegories in Markus' plot because the story felt like it didn't work hard enough to make them not feel tacky as shit.

Still like the game though.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Would someone help me to understand what's really bad in these screenshots? Because I'm not seeing anything there.

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A white woman literally telling a black man that he doesn't deserve freedom and should live as a slave if he doesn't want to fight for it. Yes they're androids, but the real world allegory is there.

"But their androids" really doesn't excuse the loaded imagery.

 

[Maffis]

Marcus, a black android, has his inciting incident when two police officers profile him, wrongly accuse him of a crime he didn't commit, and shoot him in the head.

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He's an android. The context is important. Do people completely ignore all the other androids that gets slaughtered without even a speck of thought? Him getting shot there is the whole set-up for the plot and Markus' story. It has nothing to do with his skin.

 

[Superman2x7]

I watched the video and he made good points, I've nevery found Cage's writing to be good, nor his stories to be great. They have great atmosphere and potential but it's usually squandered.

This game specifically falls under the weight of Cage's writing or lack thereof. If he intended to or not, the comparisons will and are being drawn to slavery and human inequality that's been so prevalent lately. And instead of tackling the issues and comparisons head on, the game swims around it and tries to create its own history on the subject without bringing it forward.

I'm not sure if I should commend them for trying or mock them for blatantly ignoring history and stepping all over it.

 

[Plum]

He's an android. The context is important. Do people completely ignore all the other androids that gets slaughtered without even a speck of thought? Him getting shot there is the whole set-up for the plot and Markus' story. It has nothing to do with his skin.

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It doesn't matter that he's an android, he could be blue, green, or a dog or anything else and it wouldn't change anything. What matters is that the game uses the imagery of racial profiling as a key element to its plot. That Marcus is black as well only adds on to the problem, it's not the problem itself. Yes, other androids get shot throughout the game but, again, that doesn't change the scene in question.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Would someone help me to understand what's really bad in these screenshots? Because I'm not seeing anything there.

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You have a white character telling a black character to live as a slave.

 

[Crossing Eden]

He's an android. The context is important.

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The imagery still has real world parallels. This is something that happens everyday.

The line "it was the android" doesn't excuse it especially when--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ANDROIDS ARE THIS GAME'S LITERAL ALLEGORY FOR MINORITIES INCLUDING THIS BLACK MAN WHOSE INCITING INCIDENT IS HIM BEING SHOT BY A WHITE POLICE OFFICER


The definition of allegory:

The definition of subtext:

It's like saying "Oh they put We have a dream as an option not as a callback to MLK, but just because, there's no hidden meaning, maybe androids have dreams."

 

[Nanashrew]

He's an android. The context is important. Do people completely ignore all the other androids that gets slaughtered without even a speck of thought? Him getting shot there is the whole set-up for the plot and Markus' story. It has nothing to do with his skin.

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That's because androids are meant to represent people of color, most notably, blacks, in the context of the game and all of its loaded imagery and call backs to civil rights movements. Androids are often stand in for race much like how ogres and many anthropomorphic creatures often are stand ins for race, and it's something we've seen done in all types of media.

Having the context that he's an android doesn't mean much in the grand scheme here.

 

[LoudMouse]

The game has blatant references to real life civil rights moments. One of the slogans you can use is literally "we have a dream". It's attempting (and failing, as you'd expect when it's written by a hack like David Cage) to make a statement.

I swear, a lot of fanboys and Cage himself really want to have their cake and eat it. Make use of civil rights iconography to garner praise for being so brave and daring, then coward out and act like there's no statement being made for people to criticize when they realize how poorly its executed.

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I don't like Cage. He's an awful writer and I've been very vocal about it on numerous occasions in the past. LOL.

I took the reference 'We have a dream' as an answer to the question 'Do androids dream of electric sheep'. But that can't be it can it now ... Of course not.

 

[AntiMacro]

That's fair. There are reasonable people after all.

I reacted the way I did, because I think much of this criticism tends to reach incredibly high levels of hyperbole. Seeing clickbait headlines such as, this is the worst game ever, just seems kind of destructive in a way.

If this is type of reaction that game makers can expect to get, them that certainly isn't going to get them to even touch heavy stuff.

It is a bit frustrating that some are having trouble with execution, but let's not discourage efforts either. I think we have "good" writers who can pull it off.

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I don't see anyone generalizing 'games can't handle topics like this' it's very specific to calling out David Cage as a terrible writer who can't deliver on his ideas because of his terrible writing skills. And there's ample evidence to support that opinion.

 

[Plum]

I don't like Cage. He's an awful writer and I've been very vocal about it on numerous occasions in the past. LOL.

I took the reference 'We have a dream' as an answer to the question 'Do androids dream of electric sheep'. But that can't be it can it now ... Of course not.

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I have no idea how you took that from perhaps the most obvious reference to MLK outside of directly referencing him in-game (which also happens). If it were "we can dream," then yeah, maybe you'd have a point, but the quote is literally "I have a dream," but pluralised.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't like Cage. He's an awful writer and I've been very vocal about it on numerous occasions in the past. LOL.

I took the reference 'We have a dream' as an answer to the question 'Do androids dream of electric sheep'. But that can't be it can it now ... Of course not.

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If anything that says more about your ability to understand subtext.

I have no idea how you took that from perhaps the most obvious reference to MLK outside of directly referencing him in-game (which also happens). If it were "we can dream," then yeah, maybe you'd have a point, but the quote is literally "I have a dream," but pluralised.

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^^^^^

 

[Core]

Everything has to make a statement. I remember once upon a time when you could use something as a template simply for structural reasons. Oh well, people are clearly a lot happier than they were back in the day so it must be working.

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And that era generated a lot of people like Cage who don't really know the reach about their work and see art as a purely technical thing not looking at its message and its power and the people who were "happy" back in the day were the ones who had the luxury to just tune out from society.

Art does not influence behaviour (so no you are not going to rob a bank because of gta V) but it can influence world views (Not only pulling a successful robbery is something "badass" but also you can be completely free from consequences if you do it right, it's okay to do it if you don't hurt a lot of people, it's just stealing from corporations depending on what bank you are robbing, etc, etc) as people tend to consume media that aligns with their tastes, escapism is okay but one should note what those fantasies can entail.

In my view regardless of what the author intends to, EVERYTHING will have a message, from the simplest nursery rhyme to the most elaborated aspect of high art, and one can either accept that whatever they are going to produce will have an impact on others or they can do the irresponsible thing and make something like this game, or far cry 5 games that end up reinforcing twisted world views.

 

[Dick Justice]

I don't like Cage. He's an awful writer and I've been very vocal about it on numerous occasions in the past. LOL.

I took the reference 'We have a dream' as an answer to the question 'Do androids dream of electric sheep'. But that can't be it can it now ... Of course not.

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That kinda says a lot about your basic common sense.

 

[LoudMouse]

I have no idea how you took that from perhaps the most obvious reference to MLK outside of directly referencing him in-game (which also happens). If it were "we can dream," then yeah, maybe you'd have a point, but the quote is literally "I have a dream," but pluralised.

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This is about machines and how humanity would be threatened if they achieved sentience. It's something Blade runner explored and The Terminator. I don't see it as allegorical at all, just the age old question mankind has been asking itself since technology improved and AI became common place. It has to be framed in some way and there has to be ways of manifesting the separation. Drawing on past events to find the framing isn't the same as an allegorical tale. And a lot of what I saw in the Let's Play I watched were logical expressions of separation. Where would you put machines on a bus for instance? Near the exit? Why would you put them near the exit? If there was a fire or crash, you'd want the humans to be free to leave, the machines are of no importance. They can be replaced. There are many logical explanations like that.

But this isn't about a dialectic, is it, it's about winning.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

About half way through the video but I mostly agree with everything. Been arguing about how terrible some of the stuff is in other threads.

Sucks he didn't touch more upon Luther.

Kara/Alice getting scared from him upon their first meeting is such a dumb fucking moment. Luther gets introduced by the house owner to get their coats but big black guy is still too scary for the two white ladies.

 

[Core]

Would someone help me to understand what's really bad in these screenshots? Because I'm not seeing anything there.

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Click on the link and the twitter history gives you a detailed breakdown on why that scene is bad.

But having a white person telling a black person about freedom and telling them to "live as a slave" on a modern day game, on the current political climate it's not just insensitive but quite tone deaf.

And that's the problem overall this game is not blade runner, this game is not I robot, this game makes mentions to opression and the opressed but it has absolutely no idea about what goes on with them, it's the pepsi comercial.

I once described this game as "man who doesn't understand opression tries to write about it with hilarious results", and I regret that joke, turns out it's not hilarious.

 

[Vela]

 

[Slayven]

If it's now a race allegory, why Detroit?

That would be like me telling a story about a guy trying to safe working conditions in an automotive plant and having it take place in Detroit and say it is not a allegory for unions

 

[LoudMouse]

About half way through the video but I mostly agree with everything. Been arguing about how terrible some of the stuff is in other threads.

Sucks he didn't touch more upon Luther.

Kara/Alice getting scared from him upon their first meeting is such a dumb fucking moment. Luther gets introduced by the house owner to get their coats but big black guy is still too scary for the two white ladies.

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I saw was two people scared of a huge, muscular figure that shows little emotion. Quite scary in my opinion. Why is his colour of any importance?

 

[Plum]

This is about machines and how humanity would be threatened if they achieved sentience. It's something Blade runner explored and The Terminator. I don't see it as allegorical at all, just the age old question mankind has been asking itself since technology improved and AI became common place. It has to be framed in some way and there has to be ways of manifesting the separation. Drawing on past events to find the framing isn't the same as an allegorical tale. And a lot of what I saw in the Let's Play I watched were logical expressions of separation. Where would you put machines on a bus for instance? Near the exit? Why would you put them near the exit? If there was a fire or crash, you'd want the humans to be free to leave, the machines are of no importance. They can be replaced. There are many logical explanations like that.

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Sorry, but you can't use imagery and then call that imagery a simple creation of the story, nor as a necessity of "framing." That's the definition of having your cake and eating it too. You mention Blade Runner, as if it uses similar amounts of imagery it in no way doesn't; it, instead, manages to bring in the 'feelings' behind that imagery without having to directly reference it and, as such, comment on it. The plight of the androids in Blade Runner is very similar to the plight of Detroit's androids, but it is framed around a desire for a longer and more fulfilling life and a desire to pass on your memories as humans are allowed to do; they're slaves, yes, but the story is not about slavery. I'll put it this way: if Roy Batty crouched down to die, looked at the camera and said "I had a dream. That one day this nation will rise up and live up to the true meaning of its creed..." the movie would have very likely not been as well-remembered as it is today.

As for the 'back of the bus' thing, again, that's using imagery without wanting to consider the consequences of doing so. The video mentions how the Androids could have been put into a compartment under the bus like luggage, or even under the seats, yet because "back of the bus" is short-hand for racial segregation the developers chose to do that instead. There's also nonsense like Androids having to use stairs instead of escalators and having to wait in line separately from humans at the bus stop that has no logical explanation whatsoever.

 

[Lotus]

I took the reference 'We have a dream' as an answer to the question 'Do androids dream of electric sheep'. But that can't be it can it now ... Of course not.

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I saw was two people scared of a huge, muscular figure that shows little emotion. Quite scary in my opinion. Why is his colour of any importance?

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Really...

 

[Deleted member 4976]

I saw was two people scared of a huge, muscular figure that shows little emotion. Quite scary in my opinion. Why is his colour of any importance?

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Cause it's a common negative stereotype. And it's clearly present here. And it's David Cage.

 

[Fat4all]

I saw was two people scared of a huge, muscular figure that shows little emotion. Quite scary in my opinion. Why is his colour of any importance?

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because he is black and that imagery draws direct comparisons to other media that used that imagery

 

[Deleted member 4976]

because he is black and that imagery draws direct comparisons to other media that used that imagery

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Worst yet is how obvious and awful it is.

Luther literally gets introduced the line prior to take their coats. And they don't even get startled, they straight up get scared like he about to murder them or some shit.

 

[Plum]

About half way through the video but I mostly agree with everything. Been arguing about how terrible some of the stuff is in other threads.

Sucks he didn't touch more upon Luther.

Kara/Alice getting scared from him upon their first meeting is such a dumb fucking moment. Luther gets introduced by the house owner to get their coats but big black guy is still too scary for the two white ladies.

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Luther's also a strange character because we never see any other Android with his build or stature, and he's not a special prototype like Marcus and Connor. He's seemingly just some random android Zlatko decided to 'keep' to act as intimidation. Of course he's that way because the actor playing him looks like that, but that doesn't explain why they couldn't have just used his model for nameless NPCs like they do for every other Android main character outside of the two I mentioned. It just makes it seem like the developers wanted "a big scary black guy" for the scene to add tension without thinking about what that would say.

 

[Fart Master]

There has been a ton of threads exactly like this one.
Game's French, not made with a US mentality and light-footed approach.
Most of the complains on clichè writing are obviously correct, but from that to "it's insulting to humanity" is a gigantic step.

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That's not an excuse when several other European devs are able to write about race relations way better then Quantic.

 

[LoudMouse]

because he is black and that imagery draws direct comparisons to other media that used that imagery

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But the androids are of many different nationalities. If the premise is that androids represent black people then what colour the android is is of no importance. If that guy had been white and you were right, then you would still be arguing it's allegorical. Instead of just disagreeing, at least give that a thought. There's something very interesting there if you're willing to consider it.

 

[BossAttack]

David Cage's concept for this game is far far more compelling in the Mass Effect universe i.e. the Geth - Quarian conflict

A lot of these critics seemed to have a very biased vendetta against Cage, I'd rather wait for Noah Caldwell-Gervais' analysis

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AHAHAHA, no.

This one scene from Mass Effect 3 has more depth and emotion than anything Cage has written:

 

[Plum]

But the androids are of many different nationalities. If the premise is that androids represent black people then what colour the android is is of no importance. If that guy had been white and you were right, then you would still be arguing it's allegorical. Instead of just disagreeing, at least give that a thought.

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But the guy wasn't white, he was black. Hiding behind "but they're multiracial androids" doesn't change the skin colour Quantic Dream chose to give to major characters nor does it mitigate the many allegorical references to real-life struggles black people faced in the past and face today.

EDIT: Also, race isn't nationality.

 

[Ukraine]

I know it's going to be a news to a lot of you, but it's a decent campy game. And it's only about race if you play it that way. In fact you can play the game from a perspective of androids not being alive which with the assumption that the game is about race equals to you committing genocide. That said Cage is lazy with his references, but considering that it isn't some sort of taboo, I don't have any issues with that.

 

[Fart Master]

David Cage's concept for this game is far far more compelling in the Mass Effect universe i.e. the Geth - Quarian conflict

A lot of these critics seemed to have a very biased vendetta against Cage, I'd rather wait for Noah Caldwell-Gervais' analysis

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The game has an above average meta score so no stop trying to perpetuate this bs. Fact is that if release something with the intention of it having deep philosophical meaning than expect criticism around the various aspects of the story.

 

[RoyaleDuke]

I mean anyone that knows how to write a story would know David Cage doesn't know how to do any of those things, I don't even think he knows how to make video games.

It is absurd to me that people hand this crazy misogynistic, creepy, racist idiot any money at all, or hold him in any regard because he's a complete hack. The only amusement I find is watching LP groups play through his games.

 

[Ukraine]

AHAHAHA, no.

This one scene from Mass Effect 3 has more depth and emotion than anything Cage has written:

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The game has an above average meta score so no stop trying to perpetuate this bs. Fact is that if release something with the intention of it having deep philosophical meaning than expect criticism around the various aspects of the story.

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Really, Mass Effect 3? That game was a mess from the narrative perspective. Just because that game worked for you does not mean that it works for everyone.

 

[Fat4all]

But the androids are of many different nationalities. If the premise is that androids represent black people then what colour the android is is of no importance. If that guy had been white and you were right, then you would still be arguing it's allegorical. Instead of just disagreeing, at least give that a thought.

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this is nonsense because the game already reflects upon the imagery of the racial divide, including slavery, many many times.

Luther was intentionally a large black man so the game could use the trope of the large black man with a heart of gold, and that trope almost always starts with the main characters being afraid of the large black man

 

[Weiss]

But the androids are of many different nationalities. If the premise is that androids represent black people then what colour the android is is of no importance. If that guy had been white and you were right, then you would still be arguing it's allegorical. Instead of just disagreeing, at least give that a thought. There's something very interesting there if you're willing to consider it.

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Are you fucking kidding me.

 

[BossAttack]

Really, Mass Effect 3? That game was a mess from the narrative perspective. Just because that game worked for you does not mean that it works for everyone.

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The only thing Mass Effect 3 really bungled was the ending, 90% of the storytelling is great. There's a reason the game is still talked about today, because the rest was so good that the ending being a big let down hurts so much more.

 

[Stiler]

Why is it not ok to use allegory and draw from real life slavery/civil rights movements for stories, as long as you're doing it in a respectful way and not as a means to dismiss it/make fun of it? Why does the game need to explain in detail the reasons behind using such things as a framing device? I mean the entire point is that the androids are oppressed and treated as slaves, it makes logical sense then that there would be parallels between the real world civil rights movement, just like there were parallels between the Women's Rights movement and African Americans civil rights movement.

Did people get up in arms over I, Robot, Blade Runner, The Matrix, etc for doing those things also?

Having androids becoming sentient and then coming to terms with that isn't some new thing, it's been in numerous other sci-fi works, from books, movies, games, etc. Sure it was heavy handed in Detroit and not subtle, but it didn't come off like he was making fun of it or anything in the least.

 

[Fart Master]

Really, Mass Effect 3? That game was a mess from the narrative perspective. Just because that game worked for you does not mean that it works for everyone.

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What is bad about that particular scene?

 

[LoudMouse]

But the guy wasn't white, he was black. Hiding behind "but they're multiracial androids" doesn't change the skin colour Quantic Dream chose to give to major characters nor does it mitigate the many allegorical references to real-life struggles black people faced in the past and face today.

EDIT: Also, race isn't nationality.

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Yes, wrong word. I never saw the android as black though, I saw him as an android.

 

[Ryo]

I've watched bits of the game but I'm not familiar with this Luther scene you guys are talking about, can someone link it?