Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,919
Finland
I think the general sentiment there is that difficulty settings are not substitutes for accessibility. Yes, they may be used that way now, but there should be better tools for that.

It's like saying a knife is not a screwdriver. Yeah, I can use a knife to kinda tighten a screw, but it's not the best tool for the job. Difficulty is a blunt object; accessibility should be a scalpel.
The more control you give to the player, the more precise the scalpel gets. Hence giving more than just three difficulty presets is a preferred method yes. Like with Celeste that's been mentioned many many times, you get to choose what you want to adjust and how much. Or TLOU2 which I'm not that experienced with so I avoid it as an example, but I know it's excellent. And adjustable difficulty is great especially because it helps so many people with very different disabilities. It's not specific, but it doesn't need to be. It's cost effective and very inclusive. It's a strenght of it as an accessibility tool, not a weakness as you seem to frame it.

And I personally avoid using specifically the term easy mode for two reasons. Because adjustable difficulty is much more than just selecting an easy preset setting. And because to many it's not about making the game easy, but rather equal.
 
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Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
What are you talking about? Demon Souls had a room where it showed you other players and how many times they died completing the game. You still die later in the game even with better stats and gear. I think you're making up things like "surface level aspect of the games, the challenge was never limited to how much you die". The game is designed to basically kill you and everything is geared towards letting you know that. I cannot take your position seriously if you're going to argue that these games aren't meant to kill you over and over so you learn.

Like, it's a game marketed, designed, and even lore-based to where you die repeatedly. You cannot go, "well, an easier mode won't really change the game" when making things easier will impact how many times you die and the overall experience because dying a lot is part of it and that's what the creators want to achieve. You cannot make an easier difficulty without making players die less or why even have an easier difficulty if they die roughly the same amount of times.

This is where Dark Souls isn't really a good target for wanting an easier difficulty because the game is made so the player will face challenges that will kill them repeatedly until they overcome it. An easier difficulty means less death, and that means you don't actually experience what the game is. A lot of death is part of the experience for the general audience, so if an easier mode is implemented where you die way less then what is really the point of Dark Souls?

Really? You don't see the point if players die less?

It just comes back to our idea of how much constantly dying really is intrinsic to the experience and I absolutely do not agree that it is as important as you make it seem. Bloodborne would still be the best game I've ever played on PS4 even if my first 5 hours with it weren't a struggle because my experience with the game was not defined by it, not even close.
In fact, of all the rest of the hundred hours with it, very few of them were defined by dying all the time because of how familiar I was with the game already, there was always challenge but there was no frustration or struggle. I suppose that the game shouldn't have a point anymore for me if I were to follow your logic.

What kept me coming back was discovering more of the environments that I didn't notice before, listening to more of what the NPCs had to say, trying to connect the story and looking for clues of what different people interpreted of it, exploring and thinking up my own theories of the lore in the Chalice Dungeons, experimenting new weapons, creating new characters and making up new ways to role play through the narrative with them...

I never stopped dying but it wasn't constant. It didn't matter that much honestly, because the number of times you die is absolutely only the surface of the experience. And absolutely none of that would change if there was an option for others to not die as much from the start and get to all the rest of the experience that is a From Software game.
 

Balbanes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,214
"Doing nothing but calling me names and talking down to me" is not a flat out lie. Like really, come on. They are talking down to me. That's happening. I exaggerated because it sure as hell felt like they were calling me names.

Errrr.. "Saying he was doing nothing but call me names wasn't a lie because it *felt* like he was calling me names, even though he wasn't."

Sorry man.. I'm going to have to bow out of this one. Good luck.
 

VoidCommunications

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 2, 2020
199
Errrr.. "Saying he was doing nothing but call me names wasn't a lie because it *felt* like he was calling me names, even though he wasn't."

Sorry man.. I'm going to have to bow out of this one. Good luck.
I can't even with this. You are just twisting my words into knots that I can't even come up with myself. No I"m not doing that like wtf is going on anymore in this thread. They kept being talking down to me, so I said they were talking down to me and calling me names because yes like most people my brain does that when I'm upset. I edited my post, responded accordingly, lke what? How else do I respond to a mistake I make besides saying "Yeah I fucked up there cause I was upset". Like what?
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
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6,944
Errrr.. "Saying he was doing nothing but call me names wasn't a lie because it *felt* like he was calling me names, even though he wasn't."

Sorry man.. I'm going to have to bow out of this one. Good luck.

Best to leave it. They've done nothing but call me toxic for mocking drive by posts and exaggerating points I've made to imply shit I've never said. It's clearly bad faith.

I appreciate you though.
 

VoidCommunications

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 2, 2020
199
Best to leave it. They've done nothing but call me toxic for mocking drive by posts and exaggerating points I've made to imply shit I've never said. It's clearly bad faith.

I appreciate you though.
How am I exaggerating your points please, what do you mean? I am a developer and I am trying here folks but come on.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,125
How am I exaggerating your points please, what do you mean? I am a developer and I am trying here folks but come on.
Man, I just ignored them for my own mental health. They've clearly got a chip on their shoulder and an attitude to match. I've got enough of my own problems to deal with without having to deal with theirs.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Am I crazy for thinking that saying "games don't need to be for everyone" is inherently ableist because the only people being literally prevented from even having the choice of deciding if a game is for them are people who cannot access the fucking game?
It's a case by case basis. Not every game can be for everyone. That can't be possible because sometimes all the accessibility options needed to make it for everyone literally can't be added to a game no matter how much a developer wants to.

How can you make a MMO accessible to everyone? You can't - ever.
How can you make DOOM accessible to everyone? You can't - ever.

When it's possible, and when it's within reasonable expectations of a development cycle, it should be done if demanded - but it's not always going to be like this.
 

VoidCommunications

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 2, 2020
199
Thanks :D I know we've butted heads on this topic before so maybe, but, I definitely remember being more upset/worked up that time
No worries. I know I come across as super opinionated (and I am I know), but I swear to god I'm pushing for these things in meetings. I think we may have butted heads a bit over Contrapoints? which makes sense considering your personal context in that situation, and I do respect your perspective since I don't have the same stake you had.

I have really appreciated your comments in this thread.
 
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The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,423
And I personally avoid using specifically the term easy mode for two reasons. Because adjustable difficulty is much more than just selecting an easy preset setting. And because to many it's not about making the game easy, but rather equal.
It's funny the way you decided to go aggro at me before turning around and all but literally saying the same thing I'd already said in a post before your response to my first post.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Oh I'm sure you're sincere, absolutely not suspecting you of any intellectual dishonesty or something. And I appreciate that you're here to discuss rather than to dismiss. And yeah I think I finally understand what you were trying to get at. I just hadn't really considered Souls as a multiplayer game first and foremost. As the PVP isn't even necessary at all for the "overcoming overwhelming odds" aspect. But it surely is designed as an always online game, but once again we don't usually see "developers vision" as a proper defense for always online requirements in games (or consoles). I personally feel that invasions should be optional, which they are if you just play offline. There are already means to bypass that on any platform, but on consoles you can't mod your game or use cheat engine like you can with PC. And would your stance on adjustable difficulty to be different with Sekiro then? As it's without similar online component.
I'm not opposed to them at all, though I am curious as to what issue some of them are specifically trying to address. It is a single player game at the end of the day of course, so no one's being hurt and the details are whatever to me.

But I'm also interested in how these options are contextualized within the experience. Like you said earlier, some people will always play a game "wrong" but the design of the game should also try its best to encourage players to pick the right options for themselves. For example, many PC games have very inconsistently designed graphics options that can mislead a player into giving themselves sub-optimal performance (RDR2 is a good example of this imo). So there's questions of "how", "where", and "when" these accommodations come into play beyond just the "what". Flight Simulator 2020 impressed me by having the text size adjustment be the first thing you see, before even the online TOS.
 
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Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
6,944
It's a case by case basis. Not every game can be for everyone. That can't be possible because sometimes all the accessibility options needed to make it for everyone literally can't be added to a game no matter how much a developer wants to.

How can you make a MMO accessible to everyone? You can't - ever.
How can you make DOOM accessible to everyone? You can't - ever.

When it's possible, and when it's within reasonable expectations of a development cycle, it should be done if demanded - but it's not always going to be like this.

Taking an extreme angle to say that you can't possibly account for accessibility option needed is not the take to have. No one here is saying that you have to have every single one. What we are saying is that these games need to have more accessibility options than what they currently have or don't have. You have to start somewhere. Any progress is good progress.

When it's possible, and it is very possible to the majority if not all the triple a developers, it needs to be done. There shouldn't be a demand, it should just be inherently included.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,198
There's a handful of relatively popular games that are like this. Souls being that one that drives this complaint the most, yet the creator has literally said that's how he wants to make the game. It's odd to see people couch this as some kind of widespread issue when it basically comes down to a very tiny minority of games that are made this way, and really the only reason people care is because of Souls. I think there is room for games like this to exist, so I don't really understand the constant complaining when it doesn't apply to 99.9% of games currently being made.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,919
Finland
It's funny the way you decided to go aggro at me before turning around and all but literally saying the same thing I'd already said in a post before your response to my first post.
You are probably confused. I doubt we are saying the same thing, I'm saying that all games should strive to include adjustable difficulty because it's a great accessibility option. Or do we agree? I understood that you were arguing against this notion, was I mistaken then.
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
No worries. I know I come across as super opinionated (and I am I know), but I swear to god I'm pushing for these things in meetings. I think we may have butted heads a bit over Contrapoints? which makes sense considering your personal context in that situation, and I do respect your perspective since I don't have the same stake you had.

I have really appreciated your comments in this thread.

Ah yeah, it might have been Contra. I don't remember too well, haha, it's morning here and I woke up to the thread and have been here since :'D I ned my morning coffee

And I definitely appreciate that you're bringing it up, and I'm glad what I'm saying's appreciated. A lot of time it's just been people just haven't thought of it (from when I've brought stuff up), so it's why I'm always doggedly running around, trying to discuss and explain why and where I'm coming from on this.
 

MeepMerp

Alt Account
Member
May 2, 2020
541
How many times are we going to read this frankly trash, drive by-esque take that simply dismisses the entire conversation.
As many times as people bring up this frankly trash idea that all video games need to cater to everybody. This is not the case and will never happen, accessiblity options can be added but a game like Dark Souls won't have an easy mode.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,423
You are probably confused. I doubt we are saying the same thing, I'm saying that all games should strive to include adjustable difficulty because it's a great accessibility option. Or do we agree? I understood that you were arguing against this notion, was I mistaken then.
.
People without disabilities using accessibility options to lower the difficulty of a game is a choice they can make. But that does not mean those options are intended to be used to lower the difficulty of the game. I don't need to shunt a feature meant to account for someone's disability relating to their motor processing or cognitive disability behind an easy mode. I can make that an entirely separate feature.
 

SmittyWerbenManJensen

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,737
Floater’s Cemetery
I feel like Easy mode is not suitable for some games; for most games, sure, an easy mode would suffice.

However, the Souls/BB/Sekiro games would lose a LOT of their atmosphere and impact if the challenge was toned down. The games aren't story heavy, and the oppressive nature, which is mutually inclusive with the challenge (imo), is part of the experience.

I know for a fact that I would not have appreciated Demon's Souls as much as I do now if the challenge was reduced/absent. Overcoming the enemies and bosses and levels is what makes the game memorable for me.
 

Altrich

Member
Apr 5, 2018
741
I agree with the sliders, but only in a game where the campaign dont have pvp/ co-op/invasion/etc as intended mechanic.

Meaning: no for demon or dark souls, ok for sekiro or ninja gaiden
 

Deleted member 18944

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As many times as people bring up this frankly trash idea that all video games need to cater to everybody. This is not the case and will never happen, accessiblity options can be added but a game like Dark Souls won't have an easy mode.

No one is saying that. We are just asking to have options added to games to make them accessible to people, not to be for everyone.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,292
I'm going to be honest I play some hard games but I never really feel any actual like, increased satisfaction because I died a bunch. Dying just isn't something I think about much. In something like Souls since the game is balanced around you dying I just don't really think about it much when it happens.

The reason that series is popular is because of the atmosphere and the world itself. Series like Monster Hunter have gotten MORE popular as the games have gotten easier.
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
I feel like Easy mode is not suitable for some games; for most games, sure, an easy mode would suffice.

However, the Souls/BB/Sekiro games would lose a LOT of their atmosphere and impact if the challenge was toned down. The games aren't story heavy, and the oppressive nature, which is mutually inclusive with the challenge (imo), is part of the experience.

I know for a fact that I would not have appreciated Demon's Souls as much as I do now if the challenge was reduced/absent. Overcoming the enemies and bosses and levels is what makes the game memorable for me.

On the disability/difficulty side, I think it's important to consider that disabled people aren't looking to make an experience 'easy'. They're looking to be able to actually experience it. That's why it's important that they're optional.

And difficulty, even among the able bodied, is a wide variety of levels. What may be difficult to one person might be piss easy to. Which is why 'a single difficulty gives the same experience to everyone' is just, well... Incorrect. In fact having more options, both upwards and downwards, allow people to set their difficulty to the mark that they know their skill level is at. In simple terms, if one person's difficulty capacity is 100%,then facing something at 100% would be the same as someone who might face at 80%, but their capacity is also 80%.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,919
Finland
People without disabilities using accessibility options to lower the difficulty of a game is a choice they can make. But that does not mean those options are intended to be used to lower the difficulty of the game. I don't need to shunt a feature meant to account for someone's disability relating to their motor processing or cognitive disability behind an easy mode. I can make that an entirely separate feature.
Sure, like assist mode to Sekiro instead of an easy difficulty preset.
 

Pico

Member
Oct 28, 2017
322
Dark chocolate factory: makes dark chocolate
People: I bought it. That's great chocolate. I'll buy it again.
Other people: I bought it. This chocolate is bitter. Make it sweet so everybody can enjoy it.
Dark chocolate factory: makes dark chocolate
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Taking an extreme angle to say that you can't possibly account for accessibility option needed is not the take to have. No one here is saying that you have to have every single one. What we are saying is that these games need to have more accessibility options than what they currently have or don't have. You have to start somewhere. Any progress is good progress.

When it's possible, and it is very possible to the majority if not all the triple a developers, it needs to be done. There shouldn't be a demand, it should just be inherently included.
I was moreso responding to the idea that it's not fine to say 'Not every game needs to be for everyone' because in truth, the opposite of that is impossible.

Of course adding it where you can is a good idea - even in games where you can't make it full accessible like DOOM, but having things that might make it more accessible rather than completely accessible in a case where that can't be done is something I support.
 

VoidCommunications

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 2, 2020
199
Ah yeah, it might have been Contra. I don't remember too well, haha, it's morning here and I woke up to the thread and have been here since :'D I ned my morning coffee

And I definitely appreciate that you're bringing it up, and I'm glad what I'm saying's appreciated. A lot of time it's just been people just haven't thought of it (from when I've brought stuff up), so it's why I'm always doggedly running around, trying to discuss and explain why and where I'm coming from on this.
Of course. I think ignorance is very common. As a programmer in meetings, here's two types of responses I hear with respect to accessibility:
  • "Oh that's a problem? We can totally fix that." - Programmer teams especially lack knowledge about the specific accessiblity concerns due to a distance from the product. With better ticketing / management, there can be a way for customers to get their concerns into a programmer / designer with the power to fix it.
  • "Hmm, that'd be great but..." - This is the more negative response. Ultimately they view that a compromise is necessary, and so you have to convince them it isn't a compromise in some way. This is the harder part because sometimes their arguments are compelling, whether for technical, monetary, or logistical concerns, and sometimes they're total lazy bunk made entirely for the purpose of dismissing the concern with ease. Telling the difference is really hard, but I still think there can be compelling arguments even if they're not always compelling for good reasons ("We want more money faster"), and you still have to respond to that argument even if I disagree with its inevitable conclusion.
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
Of course. I think ignorance is very common. As a programmer in meetings, here's two types of responses I hear with respect to accessibility:
  • "Oh that's a problem? We can totally fix that." - Programmer teams especially lack knowledge about the specific accessiblity concerns due to a distance from the product. With better ticketing / management, there can be a way for customers to get their concerns into a programmer / designer with the power to fix it.
  • "Hmm, that'd be great but..." - This is the more negative response. Ultimately they view that a compromise is necessary, and so you have to convince them it isn't a compromise in some way. This is the harder part because sometimes their arguments are compelling, whether for technical, monetary, or logistical concerns, and sometimes they're total lazy bunk made entirely for the purpose of dismissing the concern with ease. Telling the difference is really hard, but I still think there can be compelling arguments even if they're not always compelling for good reasons ("We want more money faster"), and you still have to respond to that argument even if I disagree with its inevitable conclusion.

Yeah, I'd definitely agree with people just not realising. Hell, I was like that too before I really started feeling the impact of my disabilities. Sometimes it takes being kicked in the face by your own health to realise this shit yourself. And yeah, there are definitely some compelling reasons why these options aren't picked up, I especially understand the cost side, from having to chat/work closely with a small dev team working on their first game, they're pretty clear about what limitations their budget, both financially and manpower wise, means for their game, in ways I hadn't thought of prior.

That's why at the moment, while I'd love TLOU2 options for everyone, I know that won't happen, because not everyone has big dick Sony/Naughty Dog money. That's why it's really important to bring the good attention/celebration to the implementation of these more granular options, cause change isn't going to come in a day, and these modes and options getting good press (and awards in case of the Game Awards) means that they're a more attractive prospect to implement.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,607
Texas
The main problem Re: the souls series is that the people asking for easy modes basically don't want to play a souls game. It's cool, there's thousands of other games out there. Common "accessibility" options I hear in threads that conflate accessibility with easy mode include: having bonfires right next to bosses, having enemies not respawn, having infinite stamina, among others. It's cool that you like the aesthetic of the souls games, but the game as described in so many of those threads ends up not sounding at all like a souls title. Those games are built around their tough but fair difficulty, interlocking maze level design, and checkpoint/fog gating systems every bit as much as they are built around the dark fantasy setting and lore. Removing the former completely changes the game away from what it is meant to be.

I don't play difficult bullet hell games or Super Meat Boy because they're too tough for me, but I also don't go into threads about those games demanding that they be made easier under the guise of accessibility. Instead, I play literally every other game on earth that tickles my fancy.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,930
www.youtube.com

ContraPoints

YouTuber, ex-philosopher. Sex, drugs, and social justice. 🌸
I do hope you haven't beaten her.
I have the playthroughs recorded as well on those games!=O But yeah I'm huge on Contra games so I ended up doing that from 2015 to 2019(last year was Contra Hard Corps and Contra 4 even on the original systems).
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
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Oct 26, 2017
22,213
Really? You don't see the point if players die less?

It just comes back to our idea of how much constantly dying really is intrinsic to the experience and I absolutely do not agree that it is as important as you make it seem. Bloodborne would still be the best game I've ever played on PS4 even if my first 5 hours with it weren't a struggle because my experience with the game was not defined by it, not even close.
In fact, of all the rest of the hundred hours with it, very few of them were defined by dying all the time because of how familiar I was with the game already, there was always challenge but there was no frustration or struggle. I suppose that the game shouldn't have a point anymore for me if I were to follow your logic.

What kept me coming back was discovering more of the environments that I didn't notice before, listening to more of what the NPCs had to say, trying to connect the story and looking for clues of what different people interpreted of it, exploring and thinking up my own theories of the lore in the Chalice Dungeons, experimenting new weapons, creating new characters and making up new ways to role play through the narrative with them...

I never stopped dying but it wasn't constant. It didn't matter that much honestly, because the number of times you die is absolutely only the surface of the experience. And absolutely none of that would change if there was an option for others to not die as much from the start and get to all the rest of the experience that is a From Software game.
And you overcame those obstacles. Good! That's the point. Yes, it won't be 100% difficulty 100% of the way through, but you will still die and learn over the course of the game.

If you truly believe dying is just a surface part about the Souls series then we will never see eye to eye and you're purposely ignoring everything From talks about when it comes to the Souls series. You're just not going to convince many people that dying isn't that important to the game creators and the game overall. Like, imagine where the Souls series would be without the game being so difficult a lot of players died constantly to overcome it. It exists because of that niche. It grew and was revered because of it.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,930
And you overcame those obstacles. Good! That's the point. Yes, it won't be 100% difficulty 100% of the way through, but you will still die and learn over the course of the game.

If you truly believe dying is just a surface part about the Souls series then we will never see eye to eye and you're purposely ignoring everything From talks about when it comes to the Souls series. You're just not going to convince many people that dying isn't that important to the game creators and the game overall. Like, imagine where the Souls series would be without the game being so difficult a lot of players died constantly to overcome it. It exists because of that niche. It grew and was revered because of it.
Yeah, dying is part of the experience, and yet, while I'm not that amazing at them, I can still beat them within time and improve as I play. The difficulty does add to the game, but I still play these games for other reasons besides the difficulty.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,398
I never said anything about the efforts of the developers or players being invalidated nor that there should not be other options as a principle.

I simply respect a developer's choices and will purchase or not purchase based on the merits of what the game does or does not present, not what I feel it should be. In that respect, it is no different than picking a JRPG over a FPS or a platformer over a MOBA. You say it's not the same, but it is in that it invalidates the decisions and choices that someone made regarding their product by saying it should be something it's not.

Should the industry as a whole improve accessibility? Yes, I've even stated as much earlier.
Should that include more than simple difficulty settings? Yes, absolutely, granular settings that can address specific issues should be available to the industry, possibly even at a system-level ideally.
Should there be more accessibility advancements in terms of hardware? Absolutely, and we saw a hint of that with Microsoft and the Adaptive Controller, but it's not quite fully-baked yet.
Should developers be REQUIRED or even expected to accommodate everyone? No, that's unrealistic and I would wager impossible in some cases.
Should a developer compromise their vision for mass appeal? No, and in almost any other industry, that would be what most people call a sellout.

As an industry, they should strive for general accessibility, but there are and likely always will be outliers. Whether it stems from resources, time, viability, or simply a design choice, it is unreasonable to expect 100% accessibility. Look at the future and push for what can be rather than wishing for something that is largely a finished product to be something it's not. Maybe the NEXT Souls game will have accessibility options and maybe it won't, but that's THEIR call, not ours. All you can do is either buy or not buy and politely let them know how you feel. We cannot however MAKE them do anything, only incentivize them to do so on their own.

It is current fact that it is their choice. There's no point to arguing against that at this time. However, they deserve to be judged for not considering those who need non-mandatory options. We should all acknowledge that there cannot be a disconnect between accessibility and difficulty in a video game, as they are one in the same.

Here's a way to satisfy all parties. There are now two modes of gameplay: Artistic Vision Mode and Accessibility Mode. The first will prevent any use of these options that provide an easier experience while the latter doesn't. Wow, more people are happy they can play the game.

I respect a developers choice to a degree. This is however where I draw the line: if you have the ability to make a game accessible with little change to the core content ("oh hey, it's the choice of the player to check this box") , then I'll always believe you should do it.

If you think a developer is right in choosing to refuse options they have the ability to add, to increase accessibility without compromising the core content, then you can hold the torch of someone who doesn't empathize with those who have disabilities. This is so fucking minor and it's absolutely mind-boggling people still rally against it. And sure, resources is always an issue in video game development, but this argument is a dead end. There's no way to really argue against it without knowing the depths of finances and abilities of the team. This could be a shortcut to a "lazy dev" ban. Every dev can simply say "we just don't have the resources" and I guess... Fine? Patch it in when you do (if you eventually have the resources?).

Again, I'm privelaged to be able-bodied and I sometimes use these settings (TLOU2 and Days Gone so far). However, this is irrelevant. Considering this relevant means you are willing to cut off people with disabilities because people like me can also benefit. It's like a Republican who goes against Medicare for All because someone you don't respect (an illegal immigrant for example) will benefits. You'd be nuts!

It's the developers choice and they should be judged harshly for it in this day and age. It's ridiculous that an "artistic vision" can be considered so sacred that cutting off an interested party for reasons of "well the developer doesn't care if they can't play" is acceptable. There is no stuoid analogy that can match this situation because video games are a unique form of entertainment.

Some people here... You're defending the architect who refuses to put in elevators and ramps in his building because it won't look good and will change how navigation within the spaces work.

E: I'm not only responding to your post, fyi. I know you're not saying all of these things I'm putting forward. This is mainly attempting to get some realizations happening.


I hate how people like to construe "Accessibility" and "Difficulty" options as being the same thing. They're not. There's no reason and no justification for not including accessibility options in a game. There are reasons devs may not want to futz with actual game balance and difficulty.

Some disabilities may require modifiers that affect difficulty. Actually, without actually hardware I'm confident there are some that require difficulty modifiers. Accessibility also isn't restricted to disabilities, but if it makes you feel better you can shame someone like myself who enjoys using the settings. Or would you be happier if, theoretically, the devs required verification of a disability to use certain settings that affect the difficulty? What reasons are there to not provide optional modifiers?
 
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The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,423
Some disabilities may require modifiers that affect difficulty. Actually, without actually hardware I'm confident there are some that require difficulty modifiers. Accessibility also isn't restricted to disabilities, but if it makes you feel better you can shame someone like myself who enjoys using the settings. Or would you be happier if, theoretically, the devs required verification of a disability to use certain settings that affect the difficulty? What reasons are there to not provide optional modifiers?
You should probably scroll down seven posts before shooting off your mouth.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,125
It's the developers choice and they should be judged harshly for it in this day and age. It's ridiculous that an "artistic vision" can be considered so sacred that cutting off an interested party for reasons of "well the developer doesn't care if they can't play" is acceptable. There is no stuoid analogy that can match this situation because video games are a unique form of entertainment.
Again, these are not mutually exclusive.

I don't view "artistic vision" as revisionary or as sacred. What they released is their vision or at least as close as they could get to it given limitations and that is a fact and not opinion. That vision may or may not include accessibility and that is their decision to make.

Likewise, you are free to criticize and judge them for that decision, harshly even if you so wish. It may not even be deemed acceptable by the masses.

That said, accusing fans gatekeeping, or implying that "artistic vision" is some defense, or implying that developers should not be able to make choices, even bad ones, is not the appropriate way to go about it, especially when this particular issue is focused almost solely on one studio and even one person making the decisions. The industry is slowly making progress and that should be encouraged at a core level moreso than arguments of difficulty and game-by-game scenarios even.
 

Hikari_Ryu

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2017
212
/thread.

For real. It's like thinking horror movies are scary but thinking that every horror movie should be less scary, when in fact, you could just as easily find a horror movie that isn't that scary by checking out reviews or listening to others' opinions.
That's a real bad analogy. No one is saying that all games should only be easy, but that you can choose how easy or hard you want it to be.

In the case of horror movies, it would be like having versions of the same movie, one with less gore maybe and you can choose which version to watch.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,398
You should probably scroll down seven posts before shooting off your mouth.

I would appreciate a post number or link as I've made several posts and have failed to locate the post you refer to. I'm on mobile. Thanks, bud.
Again, these are not mutually exclusive.

I don't view "artistic vision" as revisionary or as sacred. What they released is their vision or at least as close as they could get to it given limitations and that is a fact and not opinion. That vision may or may not include accessibility and that is their decision to make.

Likewise, you are free to criticize and judge them for that decision, harshly even if you so wish. It may not even be deemed acceptable by the masses.

That said, accusing fans gatekeeping, or implying that "artistic vision" is some defense, or implying that developers should not be able to make choices, even bad ones, is not the appropriate way to go about it, especially when this particular issue is focused almost solely on one studio and even one person making the decisions. The industry is slowly making progress and that should be encouraged at a core level moreso than arguments of difficulty and game-by-game scenarios even.

Developers can make choices and they make bad choices every day. Yes.

Any argument against the inclusion of optional settings/modifiers is weak except for the financial resources argument. That one, I acknowledge, is very real because that's the world we live in. Money makes things move in a world driven by money.

I'd be more comforted to know that everyone is morally aligned with the idea that it is good and should be be actively pursued that more people can enjoy a notably difficult game, beginning to end, through optional modifiers. I'm unfortunately not really seeing it for weak reasons.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
I agree with the sliders, but only in a game where the campaign dont have pvp/ co-op/invasion/etc as intended mechanic.

Meaning: no for demon or dark souls, ok for sekiro or ninja gaiden

I intend to play every single one of their games offline and never co-op or in pvp or allowing invasions. Give me custom difficulties.

It's so goofy watching people foam at the mouth over the word "easy" attached to a game but be entirely okay with sliders for creating custom difficulties. Like yeah, you're okay with an easy difficulty. Every racing game these days has a bajillion sliders for custom difficulties and assists. Put all that in, I don't care what you name it. If you don't want to call it EASY difficulty then whatever floats your boat. Just put the shit in.
 

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,289
Am I crazy for thinking that saying "games don't need to be for everyone" is inherently ableist because the only people being literally prevented from even having the choice of deciding if a game is for them are people who cannot access the fucking game?
The way I see it, accessibility options allow you to know if the game is for you. This what you're trying to say?
 
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Ghostwalker

Member
Oct 30, 2017
582
I feel like Easy mode is not suitable for some games; for most games, sure, an easy mode would suffice.

However, the Souls/BB/Sekiro games would lose a LOT of their atmosphere and impact if the challenge was toned down. The games aren't story heavy, and the oppressive nature, which is mutually inclusive with the challenge (imo), is part of the experience.

I know for a fact that I would not have appreciated Demon's Souls as much as I do now if the challenge was reduced/absent. Overcoming the enemies and bosses and levels is what makes the game memorable for me.

When someone has a disability that affects the ability to control the game, they will make mistakes outside of their control which cannot be fixed no matter how good they are at the game. So the game becomes a lot harder if not impossible to play.

By adjusting the difficulty the person with the disability can now enjoy the game at the same level of difficulty that you have been allowed to experience and appreciate.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,398
People without disabilities using accessibility options to lower the difficulty of a game is a choice they can make. But that does not mean those options are intended to be used to lower the difficulty of the game. I don't need to shunt a feature meant to account for someone's disability relating to their motor processing or cognitive disability behind an easy mode. I can make that an entirely separate feature.

Given the post by me you quoted was "430" and I said 7 posts down I don't think it's that difficult to deduce the post I was talking about was post "437".

Gotcha. My mistake and I appreciate pointing out the post. I assume by separate options you mean like the many options in the options in TLOU2. Absolutely. That's what I very much support. You may not intend to make it easier for able-bodied people, but they can enjoy it nonetheless. If I got you wrong, please correct me.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,423
Gotcha. My mistake and I appreciate pointing out the post. I assume by separate options you mean like the many options in the options in TLOU2. Absolutely. That's what I very much support. You may not intend to make it easier for able-bodied people, but they can enjoy it nonetheless. If I got you wrong, please correct me.
My point is thus: I don't like the two being construed because there are good reasons not to include the one, and no good reasons not to include the other. Moreover, if a dev decides they want their game to feature an easy mode and also decides that easy mode counts as their accessibility feature, not only does it not cover many accessibility issues, it is also depriving people who need accessibility options of both an easy mode of their own and higher difficulty options that take their disability into account. What people who don't need accessibility options choose to do with the ones included in the game is irrelevant to their inclusion.

I think it is perfectly alright for a Dev to decide to sell their game on it being incredibly difficult and not offering options to turn down that difficulty. I also think it's unjustifiable for that dev to then not include accessibility options because people who don't need them might use them as defacto difficulty toggles.

I didn't play TLOU2, but from what I hear, yes, those would be similar to the ideal I'm saying.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,825
I think basic accessibility features like subtitles, remappable controls, and color blind options should become standardized.

Game difficulty is a little more nuanced for me. You're never going to be able to make your game accessible to everyone. It also has a steeper cost in terms of development time and resources. Unless you're talking about simple cheat toggles like god mode and whatnot, crafting balanced difficulty levels that work well with the game as it is designed takes time. So I think that developers that take the time to do so should be praised. But I'm not sure we should be demanding it from developers that decide to focus on completing their game as they envisioned it first and foremost. I don't know though. It's tricky. There's no easy answer that would encompass every game in every genre.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,398
My point is thus: I don't like the two being construed because there are good reasons not to include the one, and no good reasons not to include the other. Moreover, if a dev decides they want their game to feature an easy mode and also decides that easy mode counts as their accessibility feature, not only does it not cover many accessibility issues, it is also depriving people who need accessibility options of both an easy mode of their own and higher difficulty options that take their disability into account. What people who don't need accessibility options choose to do with the ones included in the game is irrelevant to their inclusion.

I think it is perfectly alright for a Dev to decide to sell their game on it being incredibly difficult and not offering options to turn down that difficulty. I also think it's unjustifiable for that dev to then not include accessibility options because people who don't need them might use them as defacto difficulty toggles.

I didn't play TLOU2, but from what I hear, yes, those would be similar to the ideal I'm saying.

Okay, I understand and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I sincerely apologize for my attitude and asshole reply.

And I highly recommend at least checking out the settings in TLOU2. To avoid difficulty modifiers in terms of accessibility options, a decent chunk of those options would need to be thrown out. Pretty good game overall.

Or a Democrat saying we can't have free college because rich kids would benefit

Hehe, pretty much yeah.
 
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