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Developing: Epic Games Launcher appears to collect your steam friends & play history (Up2: Valve responds, See Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Madjoki
- Start date
which part? i don't know if it's new but saying you won't sue them and will go into arbitration is pretty standard tos stuff nowadays (whether that's legal or not...) I wouldn't be surprised if it has always been there
No? Too rich. Devs all around the world uses the Unreal Engine.
Co-signed. This is ridiculous, and useless at any rate unless you contaminate Steam client with some "Trusted"/Treacherous Computing DRM BS since our not so hypothetical perpetrator can decode the data in question in the exact same way Steam client does, or maybe even read it our of Steam's RAM if some deep cover rootkit supposedly installled for anticheat reasons is involved.
The problem is not that EGS client reads that data, it's that it doesn't ask whether to read it. If it would ask, explain, and accept a denial I would personally be fine with it. I would be even fine with EGS uploading library info for market research if they weren't sneaky about it.
Which probably still pales before the Fortnite war chest.
Same answer. They have fuck you money, they can afford to brute force it. The store isn't going anywhere.
I completely disagree with the notion that Valve is in any way to blame here. If you argue that Epic shouldn't have had the capability to do this, then you go into an encryption arms race where in the end you, the owner of your machine, can't touch anything anymore. That's the antithesis of what PC is about.
I mean, this isn't just Steam we're talking about. This about them joyfully looking for personal data in your own computer when the golden rule of software programming and level zero of common sense is that you just don't do that shit. They could have looked for any other data, for word documents or images that you yourself created. The argument in favor of generalized encryption is insane and destructive to the openness of the PC ecosystem.
The blame is squarely on Epic and this is one more instance of them poisoning the well once again. They've done a lot of harm already and I hope they will be held accountable.
I mean, this isn't just Steam we're talking about. This about them joyfully looking for personal data in your own computer when the golden rule of software programming and level zero of common sense is that you just don't do that shit. They could have looked for any other data, for word documents or images that you yourself created. The argument in favor of generalized encryption is insane and destructive to the openness of the PC ecosystem.
The blame is squarely on Epic and this is one more instance of them poisoning the well once again. They've done a lot of harm already and I hope they will be held accountable.
How about instead of stealing a watch, it's more like copying your diary. Not a monetary theft but more like a privacy infringement.
Lol no. I'd bet most people could care less or even know about this outside of forum dwellers. This store will most likely thrive in the end.
I remember when origin launched it was really rough with a ton of things that irked folks. People said they would never install it. I bet most of those people ended up with origin installed.
I mean they even don't want to put Steam logo on their account linking page.
Tim here is saying he is taking all the decision on behalf of Epic, while Tencent is a minority share holder.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/c...ears_to_collect_your_steam/eik6bhp/?context=3
On twitter he has said "Tencent's directors are super valuable contributors whose advise and participation helped make Epic what it is today. "
On follow up reply denies Tencent doesn't dictate on decision's.
All this lead's me to believe that although Tencent doesn't dictate decision making in Epic their contribution as minority shareholder is huge in influencing what decision's they make.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/c...ears_to_collect_your_steam/eik6bhp/?context=3
On twitter he has said "Tencent's directors are super valuable contributors whose advise and participation helped make Epic what it is today. "
On follow up reply denies Tencent doesn't dictate on decision's.
All this lead's me to believe that although Tencent doesn't dictate decision making in Epic their contribution as minority shareholder is huge in influencing what decision's they make.
So many of those statements he has made are easy to pick apart:
That's completely besides the point, they are still storing data without user permission and have lied about what that data involves (saying it's only friends ID's which we all know is a lie) and also, the only proof we have that Epic aren't doing anything with this data is their word and their word alone.
Roughly translates to "We pick and choose what we think is worth calling out and because we want Epic to survive at any costs we will ignore or dismiss any of their wrongdoings as a side effect of trying to bring competition to the PC market and since we don't like Steams policies we feel morally justified to ignore the corruption going on at Epic even if it is anti-consumer."
I mean, even the article he posted is hand waving to a certain degree but ignoring that, he basically is saying the only reason people are being "Anti-Epic" is because people want to buy their games on steam, that right there alone is already showing his bias towards Epic and his dislike towards Valve and the consumers who use it.
He then goes on to justify that dislike by saying that they are fair because
but then says
in other words admitting that, if it wasn't the de facto platform holder then their coverage would not be anywhere near as extensive on steam games.
Let's face it, if they didn't cover games on steam, they wouldn't have much to write about would they? Therefore the idea that they have plenty of "Pro steam coverage" is redundant because it's essentially the default choice for them, hence why they are happy if Epic displace them, not for competition or the good of the consumer but because they dislike Valve and their policies.
He then goes on to say
Well, I hate to break it to him but, it's not based on conjecture, it's based on factual evidence that can be replicated to which the original author did not bother to fact check and he is making excuses because he then goes on to say that
That entire paragraph is handwaving and victim blaming not to mention factually inaccurate, he also fails to provide any evidence of either Steam or Origin doing anything of this nature, so I am going to need to see those receipts tbh.
Basically TLDR, RPS have hugely let themselves down here and clearly shown that they aren't interested in impartial reporting on this matter, they dislike Steam therefore whatever Epic does can be forgiven because the end justifies the means (even though the end aka Epic becoming the PC market leader, in its current state, would be terrible for the consumer.)
[QUOTE="Relik7, post: 18893757, member: 54808"He admits that this is private user data and yet still doesn't commit to protecting it. It's just mind boggling. I know, Epic is the data thief, but Steam left the door open with all your possessions in clear view.[/QUOTE]
You know who are you protect your files against?
Thieves and other criminals. You are insisting that Epic is one of them.
You know who are you protect your files against?
Thieves and other criminals. You are insisting that Epic is one of them.
Yeah, I started a thread about Tim Sweeney a long time ago in an attempt to point out how much of a hypocrite he is, but I made the mistake of mentioning the Windows Store, so everyone naturally thought that my whole beef with the guy centered around UWP. The guy makes bad decisions that set a bad precedent, period.
You were wise to put that in spoiler tags here. XD
That was my immediate thought, as well. I do think Valve could simply encrypt certain content, though, forcing companies to rely on its APIs, instead.
[Eurogamer] Valve says it doesn't want Epic - or anyone - messing with Steam user data
I will leave to you to judge article :D
I will leave to you to judge article :D
Are they trying to spin this as it's Steam fault?
I'd like to but I'm done giving them clicks. A shame, I used to hold Eurogamer in relatively high regard. Now they're Nathan Grayson-tier for me.
Not really but they are treating it like normal competition move. Also they are saying that developers went to Epic Store and made their games exclusive because they offer them higher revenue share. And we know that that is lie.
And no one brings up that all other competitors to Steam use the proper channels with the Steam API.
Just until 2 years ago, you could always count on Polygon to do hot-takes and generally make bad-faith articles or be blatant hyperbolic and sometimes even bending the truth. Eurogamer, PC Gamer, and RPS were the counter-balance.
Today, all those 3 got shitty.
This has me rolling. Sue them? For what?
Competing software has imported each other's settings for decades.
Usually with the use of official API's, or only with customer consent.
Epic are doing neither. They are scanning private files before anyone gives them permission to do so, and bypassing privacy settings in the process.
Keyloggers and Spyware exist since decades, they should be legal by now. Competition! /s
Actually Epic violates the GDPR so I can definately see them getting sued in the EU.
Still not seeing how or why Valve should sue them. Official APIs are for the convenience of others to use your product and the customer is a non-factor to Valve suing them.
Sure, by the EU. Not by Valve.
Does GPDR cover collection of data on a local machine? Is Windows in breach because it knows about the files that other software installs?
GDPR covers all collection of data. And it's not the EU who does the suing but rather member state data protection authorities.
That is patently false. For instance, GDPR only applies to certain scopes of data (personal/identifying information, for example) and has clear exemptions.
This law stack exchange post sort of falls under the same umbrella but I don't know how trustworthy it is. 99.9% of GDPR knowledge out there applies to data that is transmitted between client and server. I really can't fathom this applying to simply moving data around on a user's PC given that has no actual bearing on data protection.
Something like a SteamID is a personalized data because you can easily find the matching Steam profile. Please point me to the Opt-In where Epic asked you if Epic is allowed to collect that personalized data of yours otherwise it's as clear of a breach as it just can get. It comes down to the question "did Epic ask if you if YOU want to share your Steam info with them" and the answer is an obvious: no.
I haven't followed this super closely so please point out to me if they're actually transmitting your Steam data without consent. OP says:
I literally just did a training course on GDPR for work which also included data stored on personal machines, and even physical data records. It's not just client-server.
Something like a steam ID would also count as identifiable information
Usually something like this would require an investigation into their code to ensure that they're actually doing what they say they're doing.
You can't just take their word for it. They had the option of using API to access this information without resorting to this method, so it's suspect as fuck, especially when one of the leads behind the store is the man behind Steamspy.
Secure their file? From other code running on the local system?
This is pc land, we're in chroot/jail/docker territory if we want that (I haven't used windows in years, not even sure what that os supports)
I think docker works on Windows too.
If not, then W10 has its own sandboxing tool, and you can also do a kind of sandbox by running progams under a different user with different permissions, like how itch.io Sandboxes things on Windows. (Itch uses firejail on Linux)
I would prefer we don't get to a point where everything needs to be encrypted or run in separate sandboxes. I miss the days of only weird untrustworthy .exe's and spyware being the things people needed to worry about. Not a fucking game client from a large multinational.
"Tencent's directors are super valuable contributors whose advise and participation helped make Epic what it is today. " A unlikeable entity?
At this point why in the world would you take Tim Sweeney and Epic at their word? That's just plain stupid.
Also, (unrelated to quoted post) Tencent is a minority shareholder? Technically it is true as 40% is a minority (probably diluted after latest round of financing) but it is substantial enough to ensure that their word weighs heavily. Tim Sweeney is just so full of shit.
Sure, generally issues of journalistic training / capability is a problem. But lets not kid ourselves here. $$$ is certainly a part of it, whether in sponsorship cash, ads or in case of YouTube "influencers" outright bribe in the form of sales percentage cut.
RPS team (and PC gamer till a few years back) was usually level headed. So all of a sudden we got softballs and "Epic" coverage. Yeah, it's not just because of lack of journalistic training. That one I will attribute to Sterling (plus just natural desire on his part to stir the pot I am sure).
Yeah that's true. I work for a school and we can't have the school registers up on the board as it contains the students personal information.
Other than 'influencers', it would never be direct cash exchange. It's a ludicrous idea that a publisher would talk directly to and offer money directly to a writer. (not say you or others were infering that. I just want that stated to clear that idea off of the table asap)
Now, saying that... pissing off a known and big advertiser hurts the bottom line. They can choose not to buy ads or supply review/promotional items in the future. That stings. Now if Epic is throwing around cash for exclusives at whim, who's to say they aren't going on a massive advertisement buying spree across the major sites? Infact, they would to promote their new service. That's not even a question. Marketing department at these sites sees a huge increase in their ad revenue.
Pissing off a portion of your reader base wouldn't effect the bottom line. Hell, all that matters is they clicked on your site or video. Sometimes, people who strongly dislike your content click more than people who simply like your content. The readers/viewers are just a metric for news sites and videos. That's all.
So who do you lean towards? The group that funds your company or the group that is a metric to get more groups to fund your company? Forget the single writer... who does your editor lean towards?
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GDPR covers all collection of personal data, thanks for pointing out I left word "personal". Any data that can be used in a way to identify a person is PII. GDPR has exemptions but local legislations can elect to make the regulation rules stricter and the scope of GDPR is damn broad. It's not just client-server. But I'll be sure to bring this up with legal scholars that research gdpr so we can have a good answer for you.
The problem here is that it gathers the data and it may transfer it all, we don't know what it actually transfers, and I've learned that corporations aren't exactly trustworthy about what information they are actually transferring. In this case, we only have Sweeney's word and nothing else.
Eh, dunno about PCGamer, but throwaway snark about Steam being bad has been a standard feature of RPS articles for years.
There is saying Steam needs to improve.
And there is excusing something really bad because it happened to Steam and 'we need compeition'
They used to do the former, now they are doing the latter.
You give no fucks about this yet you still posted in the thread? I usually dont post in something I supposedly dont give a fuck about