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Rubblatus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,124
This weird recent fixation on condemning DMC4's style switching across the board is weird, because it was never a vocal issue when the game came out.

If you were coming in fresh from DMC3, you were sticking to Swordmaster or Trickster for most of your playthrough and changing it on a fight-to-fight basis to deal with whatever priority target you were worried about. It was a new system that you knew would completely up-end the high-end gameplay scene a lot, but for the time being it was just a massive quality-of-life change that was generally appreciated outside of individual style move nerfs. Higher end players that insisted on using all those tools like we see nowadays had a new system they were pretty excited to master, and it kept them busy across multiple playthroughs as they worked out the muscle memory to make it work.

The real bane of everyone's existence was the mandatory triple-weapon switch paired with the presence of Pandora and Lucifer. Pandora was disruptive as shit because you would inevitably forget what weapon you had equipped when you wanted to Gunslinger something, so you'd get a ton of unwanted Arguments which killed the combat flow. Lucifer meanwhile was so misunderstood and existed in a game that never took advantage of its crowd control utility, that it ended up being used solely for pin-up spam, splash JCs, and Launcher->Ecstasy->Air Trick set-ups for a long time.

People hated that they kept having to work around these things even months later into the game's lifespan that when the PC version came out, people were using trainers to make saves where Dante never picks them up. That's what I'm curious to see Capcom address. I've adjusted since then to the point where I can't play DMC3 unless I have Rebellion/Cerberus/Beowulf rolling, but it should've always been a player toggle.

Also:

Tbh, I'm not happy that they are doubling down on the d-pad style switching. Sure it gives the players a lot of options on the fly, but at the same time it's a system that very small portion of people will get good at simply because of how demanding it is.

They were never going to move away from that. Not even DmC for all of its attempts to streamline Dante could avoid using the D-Pad for weapon toggles.

"No problem, Devil May Cry 5 - E3 2018 Announcement Trailer"

See, this guy gets it. Bravo.
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,564
Wait, is this confirmed? I've not been following this thread super closely. I was suspecting that seeing how they are using old animations and the same style of dodge, but I had hopes that would not be the case.
Nero has 4 breakers at the same time in one part of trailer:
HqCom9K.png

Quicksilver equipped and from left to right:
Buster
Drill
Rocket

So unless they want you to cycle through 4 different arms with R2, it's safe to assume that devil breakers in 5 are set to d-pad just like styles in 4.
 

NediarPT88

Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,077
Certain clips show Nero with multiple Devil Breakers on his waist, indicating the ability to quickly switch between them, a la Dante's Style System. Given that Style switching is done via D-Pad, it's logical to assume that that will be the case with Nero's Devil Breakers. They will essentially be his Styles.

Nero has a 4 breakers at the same time in one part of trailer:
HqCom9K.png

Quicksilver equipped and from left to right:
Buster
Drill
Rocket

So unless they want you to cycle through 4 different arms with R2, it's safe to assume that devil breakers in 5 are set to d-pad just like styles in 4.

I assumed that, but having to let go of the left analog stick to switch styles on the go is not exactly a good control scheme.

Like other people have said I was hoping to see a shoulder button working like a modifier for the face buttons.
 

bunkitz

Brave Little Spark
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
13,509
I love that the rocket Devil Breaker is red. While Venom Snake's Rocket Punch arm was grey, I associate his prosthetic arm with red so that's what I think of. That, and since whatshisname guy from Peace Walker had a red prosthetic arm too.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Tbh, I'm not happy that they are doubling down on the d-pad style switching. Sure it gives the players a lot of options on the fly, but at the same time it's a system that very small portion of people will get good at simply because of how demanding it is.

Nero in DMC4 was much more accessible because people didn't have to go back and forth between d-pad and left analog stick to have a good time with him. I agree that having a style modifier on one of the triggers would've been much more preferable than going back to d-pad.
I think it has the potential to be a lot more accessible with Nero, because I doubt there will be a lot of switching at the same speed required for basic DMC4 Dante combos. You'll switch them around for functionality, not to do a single move.

The different arms all seem to change the arm function, and nothing else. I don't think we'll need to switch to a specific arm just to teleport up to the enemy after a Prop, and then switch back to the first arm to continue comboing them in the air, for example.

One of the biggest problems with the style system is how hard it is to do simple shit. It's not like you're really styling on enemies and ready to make a combo video once you get Prop -> Teleport -> Air Rave down, but go ask someone who never played the game to do that.

So I agree with you, but I don't necessarily think Nero's Devil Breaker system is an indication that they're not trying to change Dante. At least I hope it isn't.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,331
One of the biggest problems with the style system is how hard it is to do simple shit. It's not like you're really styling on enemies and ready to make a combo video once you get Prop -> Teleport -> Air Rave down, but go ask someone who never played the game to do that.
Yeah, it's like we should not need SwordMaster to access a crummy aerial rave technique. That and the weakening of the styles in general just makes Dante feel like such an odd retrofit.

The other thought I had was simply getting rid of Sword and Gun and making Guard and Trickster way way better.

Or just improve sword to include unique stuff that makes the switch seem worthwhile. If some of Nero's attacks were like the kind of thing available to Dante it would be better

I guess I'm just not a fan of giving Dante more options in 4 but making those individual options far less interesting than their DMC3 counterparts with less effect than similar techniques given to Nero. Feels like the wrong direction to go.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Tbh, I'm not happy that they are doubling down on the d-pad style switching. Sure it gives the players a lot of options on the fly, but at the same time it's a system that very small portion of people will get good at simply because of how demanding it is.

Nero in DMC4 was much more accessible because people didn't have to go back and forth between d-pad and left analog stick to have a good time with him. I agree that having a style modifier on one of the triggers would've been much more preferable than going back to d-pad.
Yeah, I can't think of a single reason the devs shouldn't provide a more convenient control option than d-pad style switching. Accessibility matters. Expert players are going to push the system to the limit anyway. They lose nothing.
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,564
They were never going to move away from that. Not even DmC for all of its attempts to streamline Dante could avoid using the D-Pad for weapon toggles.
I haven't played DmC in a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but the DmC system gives you access to 3 weapons (3 styles) that all had decent moveset without the need to let go of LS.

I think the problem with DmC was that, it didn't have enough weapons so instead of each d-pad button being loadout swaps for both demon and angel weapons, each button is for switching a single weapon which in turn lowered the skill ceiling a lot (alongside other problems like how JC was a joke in the vanilla version, etc)
I assumed that, but having to let go of the left analog stick to switch styles on the go is not exactly a good control scheme.

Like other people have said I was hoping to see a shoulder button working like a modifier for the face buttons.
Same.
I think it has the potential to be alot more accessible with Nero, because I doubt there will be a lot of switching at the same speed required for basic DMC4 Dante combos. You'll switch them around for functionality, not to do a single move.

The different arms all seem to change the arm function, and nothing else. I don't think we'll need to switch to a specific arm just to teleport up to the enemy after a Prop, and then switch back to the first arm to continue comboing them in the air, for example.

One of the biggest problems with the style system is how hard it is to do simple shit. It's not like you're really styling on enemies and ready to make a combo video once you get Prop -> Teleport -> Air Rave down, but go ask someone who never played the game to do that.

So I agree with you, but I don't necessarily think Nero's Devil Breaker system is an indication that they're not trying to change Dante. At least I hope it isn't.
I understand what you mean and agree with you to some extent, but the problem now for average DMC4 Nero players is that, all of his base attacks in 5 are basically just his stuff from 4, and the new breaker system with new moves is tied to d-pad.

Also, now that they are doing breaker system like this, I don't see them not bringing back DMC4 styles for Dante.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
This weird recent fixation on condemning DMC4's style switching across the board is weird, because it was never a vocal issue when the game came out.

If you were coming in fresh from DMC3, you were sticking to Swordmaster or Trickster for most of your playthrough and changing it on a fight-to-fight basis to deal with whatever priority target you were worried about. It was a new system that you knew would completely up-end the high-end gameplay scene a lot, but for the time being it was just a massive quality-of-life change that was generally appreciated outside of individual style move nerfs. Higher end players that insisted on using all those tools like we see nowadays had a new system they were pretty excited to master, and it kept them busy across multiple playthroughs as they worked out the muscle memory to make it work.

For me it comes from having replayed both the DMC and Bayonetta series earlier this year and inevitably drawing comparisons between the two. DMC4 feels all too clearly like what it is: a game built off the same control scheme DMC1 gave us back in 2001. Meanwhile, Bayonetta lets you dodge with one button, dodge in the air, access all your usual attacks in the air, block, switch between four weapons with only one button, pull off some gunkata action, and all with the one default control scheme. And, granted, not all those functions have the same depth as Dante's equivalents, but she also has a few tricks that Dante can't do (Panther Within, Umbran Spear, using enemy weapons, for example). It's been a long time since DMC4, and Platinum have had a lot of great ideas in the intervening years.

I like the Style system in concept, but I feel like DMC4's execution of it was basically just to make DMC3's Divinity Statue menu function in realtime and then call it a day. I wouldn't even mind if they kept the D-pad Style Switch as long as they fleshed out Dante's basic, Style-agnostic moveset a little better. I was fighting Echidna with Dante, trying to aerial attack her and also dodge her attacks without landing, having to operate the D-pad like a gearshift to change the function of the Circle button and I just thought to myself, there's a better way of doing this. Even taking a cue from some of Nero's mechanics, like the way he can do both Aerial Rave and Helmbreaker with just Triangle, would be welcome.
 

Kunomori

Member
Nov 1, 2017
739
The D-pad for the Switch is really difficult to master ... Look, even the best players, look how they hold the control to be able to have the best experience with combos. It seems very difficult and uncomfortable. But I really can not figure out a way to make the switch. As difficult as it is, I want to have access to at least 4 at the same time

 

Rubblatus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,124
But I really can not figure out a way to make the switch. As difficult as it is, I want to have access to at least 4 at the same time

Just to clarify; when you say you can't figure out a way to make the switch, are you referring to making style switches in DMC4? Or how you would change it in DMC5?
 
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Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,362
I haven't played DmC in a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but the DmC system gives you access to 3 weapons (3 styles) that all had decent moveset without the need to let go of LS.

I think the problem with DmC was that, it didn't have enough weapons so instead of each d-pad button being loadout swaps for both demon and angel weapons, each button is for switching a single weapon which in turn lowered the skill ceiling a lot (alongside other problems like how JC was a joke in the vanilla version, etc).
It had 6 weapons, 2 Angel Weapons, 2 Demon Weapons, and Rebellion. And three types of guns. I think it's good, it's pretty varied. Playing it right now (for the first time), it feels pretty good to use the triggers to switch weapons, as you say it's fast and I don't have to let go of LS too often. For all of DmC's faults, I wish DMCV would try something like this too.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I need to stop listening to the song while riding motorcycle, it's gonna get me killed one day lol.

Mercenary%2BGarage%2BDesign%2BDublin%2BIreland%2BCustom%2BMotorcycle%2BWorkshop%2BTom%2BCruise%2BBMW%2BMission%2BImpossible%2BRogue%2BNation%2B1.gif


''gotta let it out gotta let it out''
 
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Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,564
It had 6 weapons, 2 Angel Weapons, 2 Demon Weapons, and Rebellion. And three types of guns. I think it's good, it's pretty varied. Playing it right now (for the first time), it feels pretty good to use the triggers to switch weapons, as you say it's fast and I don't have to let go of LS too often. For all of DmC's faults, I wish DMCV would try something like this too.
I meant 3 weapons and 3 styles at all times without the need to use d-pad.
 
Oct 27, 2017
720
I get the speculation that Nico might be Agnus' daughter, as it would make sense. Either way I personally hope Agnus never shows up again because I hate that dude.

Honestly, aside from Nero I hated most of the new characters in DMC4, including the setting. Hopefully this game is more along the lines of the GOAT action game DMC3.
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,564
Is that a confirmation? dpad style switching is coming back?
Nah it's not confirmed.

But since all of the Nero mechanics from 4 are making a come back, the only way for them to let us use 4 arms at once (as we can see Nero has all of them in one part of the trailer), would be to use d-pad.

Well, unless they make R2 some crazy modifier that changes every face button's function and turn them into arm buttons. (would love to see that, but I doubt it)
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
I get the speculation that Nico might be Agnus' daughter, as it would make sense. Either way I personally hope Agnus never shows up again because I hate that dude.
For all sakes and purposes, I thought it was safe to presume that Agnus is taking a long dirt nap, now. Dante beat him fairly (after Agnus dared to try and out-ham DMC4!Dante at his own game) and then shot him dead. That said, again, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "V" was possibly either a) another previously unseen relation of Agnus that gives Nico personal stake in DMC5's story or b) was one of his last projects (clone or etc.) that utilized Angelo DNA.

I can't help but look at Nico's tatoos and then see V sporting their own, and not think there's some type of connection.
 

badcrumble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,730
Nah it's not confirmed.

But since all of the Nero mechanics from 4 are making a come back, the only way for them to let us use 4 arms at once (as we can see Nero has all of them in one part of the trailer), would be to use d-pad.

Well, unless they make R2 some crazy modifier that changes every face button's function and turn them into arm buttons. (would love to see that, but I doubt it)
Dpad left-right could also be used to rotate through arms (keeping up-down free), for what it's worth.

I also think we should keep in mind that Nero is (hopefully) going to get at least one additional melee weapon and at least one additional gun in this game, btw.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,865
The D-pad for the Switch is really difficult to master ... Look, even the best players, look how they hold the control to be able to have the best experience with combos. It seems very difficult and uncomfortable. But I really can not figure out a way to make the switch. As difficult as it is, I want to have access to at least 4 at the same time


Well whilst nioh is still physically demanding to switch between its styles at top speed, its not uncomfortable. So why not R1+Facebuttons?
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,564
Dpad left-right could also be used to rotate through arms (keeping up-down free), for what it's worth.

I also think we should keep in mind that Nero is (hopefully) going to get at least one additional melee weapon and at least one additional gun in this game, btw.
D-pad means letting go of LS which I don't think is a good design either way, even if it is just to directions of d-pad.

As for giving Nero more weapons, I think he is literally out of button. If we assume that arms are on d-pad now, that leaves Nero with one unused button which would be R2 (which could very well be the snatch button, since snatch is now universal)
I don't think they will let us use 4 arms at once. It will be more like DMC3 where you choose your loadout.
There is a scene in the trailer where he has 4 arms on him.

I bet it'll be a loadout tho, since he has more than 4 arms (we've spotted 6 of them thus far)
I can't help but look at Nico's tatoos and then see V sporting their own, and not think there's some type of connection.
What if V is Nico's lover/boyfriend (who used to work at a tattoo parlor) trying to help Nero (Nico's partner in crime) with his demon hunting job, in order to capture Nico's heart and set up for that perfect moment to propose to her?
HqF27xJ.gif
 

Brinksman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,180
What if V is Nico's lover/boyfriend (who used to work at a tattoo parlor) trying to help Nero (Nico's partner in crime) with his demon hunting job, in order to capture Nico's heart and set up for that perfect moment to propose to her?

I'm currently venturing a punt that he's Mundus. Whether that's more or less outlandish is a matter for posterity, heh
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
What if V is Nico's lover/boyfriend (who used to work at a tattoo parlor) trying to help Nero (Nico's partner in crime) with his demon hunting job, in order to capture Nico's heart and set up for that perfect moment to propose to her?
HqF27xJ.gif

Now, THAT would be an interesting twist! Either way, I'm thinking V HAS to mean something to her. Maybe she's the one Nico is referring to in her "wish you were here" tats? And maybe it's the lighting on the box art, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was possibly bi-racial/ambiguously brown-beige, like she was. And if such an individual is a part of Agnus' "Angelo" project, I guess they, too, would technically count as a "Son of Sparda" and would fit the bill of being a main playable character in this seires. Even if it was through the most bootleg of means...

I'm currently venturing a punt that he's Mundus. Whether that's more or less outlandish is a matter for posterity, heh

I dunno! I'm actually leaning towards the idea that maybe Cursed!Vergil is still somewhat under Mundus' thrall. Even everything that Dante did in the first game only defeated him and sent him back home to the Demon World, not kill him. Using Vergil's body as a last ruse to stand against the Demon Emperor that stole his shine, and possibly get revenge on Dante on the same token, using the body of Sparda's son? I could see it.

Also helps that one of the descriptions say that Dante is seeking out the one that "corrupted his brother".
 

Brinksman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,180
Out of curiosity, do you main Dhalsim in SF?

Have never even played it, sorry!

I dunno! I'm actually leaning towards the idea that maybe Cursed!Vergil is still somewhat under Mundus' thrall. Even everything that Dante did in the first game only defeated him and sent him back home to the Demon World, not kill him. Using Vergil's body as a last ruse to stand against the Demon Emperor that stole his shine, and possibly get revenge on Dante on the same token, using the body of Sparda's son? I could see it.

Also helps that one of the descriptions say that Dante is seeking out the one that "corrupted his brother".

Exactly, that's precisely what suggests to me that Mundus is in the game, though I think to cast him as that Sauron-esque demon villain in the trailer would be too blatant a development to bother keeping under wraps. And I don't think V has actually been described as a new character thus far.

If he's not an established character or someone we'd least expect then there's not much for fans to anticipate.

Matt Walker wants to see people speculate about V's face, so there'll probably be something of interest there, and if the character happens to have three eyes or a three eye sigil, that would be a clear giveaway.

Since DMC demons use their names when entering into contracts (source: manga), and V "has no name" per the music video, I'm imagining perhaps Mundus desperately bargained his name to return to the human world in a hurry (then perhaps undertook a body switcheroo with Vergil for some reason).

Something along those lines, I mean as soon as I see people chopping off each other's arms and being possessed by arms I can be sure to expect some sort of Metal Gear Solid convoluted soap opera plot, haha
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
...Something along those lines, I mean as soon as I see people chopping off each other's arms and being possessed by arms I can be sure to expect some sort of Metal Gear Solid convoluted soap opera plot, haha

Haha, YEP.
And that ties back to my own theories about V being a relation of some sort to Nico (and thus, Agnus). Not only because of the possible tattoo connection between her and V, but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense to have Nico being a living relation to two dead established characters in the DMC-verse, and not do more with it. This series loves its "family drama", even when Sparda and his sons have little to do with it (re: Arkham and Lady, Credo, Nero and Kyrie).

It's all the stuff that makes for such a hammy soap, and I LOVE it so. Again, that's why all this lore theory-crafting entices me just as much as gameplay details. I know we gotta wait til Gamescom for more, but I'm hoping Itsuno allows at least one thing to slip at CapcomTV tonight/tomorrow. As someone said earlier, Itsuno got cut off before he wanted to say anything more at E3, and we need at least SOMETHING to chew on for the rest of these next few weeks!
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,872
Las Vegas
BTW let us predict what new Devil arms Dante will get

Well for sure gauntlets...had light and fire already + Gilgamesh drills... So what could be different.

I hope for maybe lightning gauntlets for the first time and instead of being "slow" he instead will get a "flashy" fast fighting style

Further more an axe or staff... Would love something with fire of course

Some unique stuff ala Pandora or Nevan would be nice as well and maybe the motorcycle he is riding is already a devil arm after.

Doubt we will get other swords besides Sparda and Rebellion

Just give Dante everything. Rebalance the weapon attack values so they work in the context of the enemies and bosses in the game. Ifrit, Nevan, Cerberus, Beowulf, Agni and Rudra, Pandora, Artermis, Nightmare and so on. There is no reason not to.