Devs react to PS5 specs - Twitter edition

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,836
I think the answer is pretty straightforward based on what we've heard. It isn't. So who is right? We'll know soon enough. Based on the usual workload of a modern game I expect the GPU to be running at full load and the CPU to be underclocking, since the system has a specific power budget that must not be exceeded.
Assuming the clock relationship is simple, the thing I wonder is, how often that will matter with workloads such as that you mentioned. If you’re gpu bound - going hard on the gpu - it means there is some excess of frame time on the cpu side vs the gpu side. As long as the clock behaviour doesn’t tip the bound back over to the other side of the system, what the clocks are doing will be transparent wrt frame rate. The system will ‘just’ be transparently reducing the gpu bound by keeping the gpu clocks high, and increasing the cpu frametime, relative to both going full throttle. As long as the latter doesn’t pass the former, it’s a net benefit.

The trade off - or where it won’t be so transparent for the optimisation engineer - will be in games where the framerate bound is more evenly divided rather than lopsided on either the cpu or gpu side. The question becomes how typical that will be vs games that are either, to a notable degree, cpu or gpu bound.

I would say also, one nice thing about this system would be if it’s granular enough to respond dynamically, within a frame, to shifts in the workload. Over a frame the workload will vary on the cpu and gpu. If they fixed the clocks at some lower level on the cpu and/or gpu, the capacity to respond to different bounds would be fixed. That’s the alternative we should compare to, that would have been the alternative way to divvy up their power budget, if we fix for cost - a set of lower fixed clocks that fit within the power/thermal envelope.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,441
Devs are less concerned with max power and more with ease of development. The IO speeds and Sony being ahead on tools is likely making life very easy for devs. Plastic warriors get excited about who can push the most things on the screen. Not most devs. Most of that theoretical max they don't touch. What the SSD is helping is development. Time is money. Time wasted trying to trouble shoot or work around throughout bottlenecks takes away from the other aspects of game development. People are misconstruing developer excitement me thinks. I think they're genuinely excited and people need to stop downplaying that. The excitement doesn't mean PS5 games will have exclusive features or exclusive textures. It may mean more exclusive games from Indies who have limited resources. Cheapening development may make it easier to moneyhat exclusive games with bigger publishers as well.

That said, I believe the Series X sounds like one hell of a machine that will excel in ray tracing. Microsoft is behind on the tools. Until then full feature sets are out in the wild, it's all speculatuon...outside of the fact that devs like developing for PS5. They aren't talking about the competition. Which is probably the #1 thing that matters as of today.
I mean i am not expecting anything exclusive to Sony from 3rd party even if it has the faster speed.
It will just give them more options to do certain things with the extra speed.
Devs like the SSD for what it can do for ram mangement , game play , easy of development etc etc.
I sure for most of them is whole bunch of factors together and that goes for both systems.
 

Mubrik_

Member
Dec 7, 2017
428
I think the answer is pretty straightforward based on what we've heard. It isn't. So who is right? We'll know soon enough. Based on the usual workload of a modern game I expect the GPU to be running at full load and the CPU to be underclocking, since the system has a specific power budget that must not be exceeded. I can see scenarios in which both clocks will be at their maximum, in smaller games that don't tax the hardware that much, but not in big games. In any case we are only a few months away from actual next gen games coming to market so we will get definitive answers soon.



Perhaps, but it isn't their own theory. They talked to informed sources. For the moment I will trust their info and I'll wait for benchmarks to reveal the facts.



That's fair, you trust Cerny and I trust the DF crew. It is absolutely possible that Cerny is right.
WOW
I'm absolutely floored
 

foamdino

Member
Oct 28, 2017
150
Assuming the clock relationship is simple, the thing I wonder is, how often that will matter with workloads such as that you mentioned. If you’re gpu bound - going hard on the gpu - it means there is some excess of frame time on the cpu side vs the gpu side. As long as the clock behaviour doesn’t tip the bound back over to the other side of the system, what the clocks are doing will be transparent wrt frame rate. The system will ‘just’ be transparently reducing the gpu bound by keeping the gpu clocks high, and increasing the cpu frametime, relative to both going full throttle. As long as the latter doesn’t pass the former, it’s a net benefit.

The trade off - or where it won’t be so transparent for the optimisation engineer - will be in games where the framerate bound is more evenly divided rather than lopsided on either the cpu or gpu side. The question becomes how typical that will be vs games that are either, to a notable degree, cpu or gpu bound.

I would say also, one nice thing about this system would be if it’s granular enough to respond dynamically, within a frame, to shifts in the workload. Over a frame the workload will vary on the cpu and gpu. If they fixed the clocks at some lower level on the cpu and/or gpu, the capacity to respond to different bounds would be fixed. That’s the alternative we should compare to, that would have been the alternative way to divvy up their power budget, if we fix for cost - a set of lower fixed clocks that fit within the power/thermal envelope.
I agree with this. I think it's a really elegant way to solve the thermals problem.

Now we need to see the other part of the solution, the physical cooling components and how they work. Cerny teased that there was something special there also.

Everything in this design fits together holistically. High clocks was obviously baked into the design from day 1 it isn't a reaction to competition. You don't work on special cooling patents for years if you don't want to cook high clocked components. You don't work on an SSD for years to remove every bottle neck to ram if you don't have high enough clocks to take advantage of it.

Just my 2 p
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,930
Why are we fighting about this 1TF of variable GPU power anyways? It doesn't mean a ton in the overall scheme of things. If devs had the GPU running at 9TF most of the time, nobody would fucking know.

Realtively...compared to everything else in the console, that difference (9 to 10) feels insignificant.
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,065
Why are we fighting about this 1TF of variable GPU power anyways? It doesn't mean a ton in the overall scheme of things. If devs had the GPU running at 9TF most of the time, nobody would fucking know.

Realtively...compared to everything else in the console, that difference (9 to 10) feels insignificant.
People with next to no knowledge about these kind of things are always the ones jumping to the biggest conclusions - its really funny to see. Some people acted like PS5 would be like the OG Wii in the PS360 generation compared to XSX because of the TF numbers. Hilarious.
 

Coastel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
449
OK, then I'll wait for you to explain how Cerny stating that both chips will be running at max frequency the majority of the time is possible if one chip has to downclock for the other to run at max speed. Please explain to me how that's possible, I'll wait. In that case the theoretical maximum for either chip would be 50% of the time at max speed, which is not "a majority of the time".

On a different note, I'm curious whether the power budget is a whole chip power budget, a separate CPU and GPU power budget, or a combination of the two.
Could it not mean that if for some reason the cpu and gpu were at max clocks then eventually they would run very hot so then the ps5 lowers clocks to keep both cool and reduce/stop throttling.

Not sure what games would max both consistently, as usually every scene takes up a different amount of resources, but it doesn't mean it cant and it does happen.

Edit: Also with what a poster said DF is hearing is it that some devs are gpu-bound so they reduce cpu clocks to keep full utilization of the gpu and same for if its cpu-bound.

So what I mean is if they cant run both max for long periods of time due to it being inconsistent, then they are forced to prioritize and lower eiva cpu or gpu depending on game load that requires one or the other or both. Would explain having to choose one or the other for certain scenarios if it's at full load for to long that would cause it to lower clocks

2nd edit: cleared up some wording that someone quoted.
 
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Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,175
The 1st party developers/ceo that are working at Naughty Dog and Ready at Dawn mixed in with the odd Indie developer. Yeah their totally unbiased and professional they would be professional. Such a shame no one is coming out in defense for MS.





Yes, Start Citizen the most demanding game in production ever, which won't come to console due to how demanding it is does just perfectly fine with a regular SSD it doesn't even need a NVME SDD so the notion that we are in need of something PS5 is putting in their box is insane.

It is nothing more than a overkill niche feature.
Lolwut? Star Citizen is just one game. SSD exclusive game development is just beginning. Just because one game isn't maybe taking full advantage of the absolute best that SSDs have to offer means absolutely nothing to what it can be in the hands of thousands upon thousands of developers once it's a default feature in hardware the likes of XSeX and PS5.
 

VinFTW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,948
Pretty damning not a single 3P dev has come forward defending/praising the Series X architecture and/or software
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,609
Assuming the clock relationship is simple, the thing I wonder is, how often that will matter with workloads such as that you mentioned. If you’re gpu bound - going hard on the gpu - it means there is some excess of frame time on the cpu side vs the gpu side. As long as the clock behaviour doesn’t tip the bound back over to the other side of the system, what the clocks are doing will be transparent wrt frame rate. The system will ‘just’ be transparently reducing the gpu bound by keeping the gpu clocks high, and increasing the cpu frametime, relative to both going full throttle. As long as the latter doesn’t pass the former, it’s a net benefit.

The trade off - or where it won’t be so transparent for the optimisation engineer - will be in games where the framerate bound is more evenly divided rather than lopsided on either the cpu or gpu side. The question becomes how typical that will be vs games that are either, to a notable degree, cpu or gpu bound.

I would say also, one nice thing about this system would be if it’s granular enough to respond dynamically, within a frame, to shifts in the workload. Over a frame the workload will vary on the cpu and gpu. If they fixed the clocks at some lower level on the cpu and/or gpu, the capacity to respond to different bounds would be fixed. That’s the alternative we should compare to, that would have been the alternative way to divvy up their power budget, if we fix for cost - a set of lower fixed clocks that fit within the power/thermal envelope.
Yep, it will be interesting to see how the system performs in practice and how developers decide to utilize it.
 
OP
OP
Equanimity

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,985
London
To chime in on the subject, as a designer I rarely, rarely ever put any thought on the GPU side of things. IIRC, there was only one level on my 5 years career where I had to find solutions to a GPU problem (heavy FPS drops on base XB and PS4 on a particular scene in Life Is Strange 2) with the help of engineers, tech artists, and our lighting artists.

On the other hand, I know for a fact that every designer had to micro-manage pre-streaming assets, levels and even unloading stuff as a scene was unfolding, to free up RAM space for the next level since we had RAM budget for every scene.

Having a base SSD in both next-gen consoles could theoretically mean less micro-management on RAM/streaming on our end and more time to polish the core experience. Having said that, it doesn't mean that peak GPU power isn't something that other departments aren't paying close attention to.
Thank you for sharing. I really enjoyed LiS2.

So OP is banned.
I think I will stay in my new AC island and take a break from here.
ERA members think this forum is a high value but in fact, it is just the least worst.

Stay safe
Why is OP banned?

I have to say, the quality of threads and posts has plummeted here since that PS5 stream, has it always been like this in the speculation threads? (I've avoided stepping foot in them)
The answer to your question... not going to comment on it but yeah.....and it was more controlled in the speculation thread. Now its console war galore and no one is doing anything about it......

Don't know why it is allowed but whatever. Agree with Thera take.


You are taking that video out of context. It's not a plug and play situation and testing it. You need to actually build the software(OS/Programs etc) for that kind of speed. Think of it like this, yes another stupid analogy ;P............ Lets not haha. Software needs to be created to take that kind of advantage. Than again not every program needs that kind of speed.
Gaming comunities are nothing more than literal manchildren fanboy kindergardens. Every single one of them.

New consoles' reveals and launches are usually what show everyone's true colors.

Whoever tries to act as they have no bias or agenda is just pretending.

This is not even being jaded. It's just plain reality.
I was banned for calling someone's lopsided argument inconsistent. It was perceived as hostility but I completely disagree, and have asked the resetera staff to take another look at it.

Post in question
 

Bönthö

Member
May 25, 2018
88
The 1st party developers/ceo that are working at Naughty Dog and Ready at Dawn mixed in with the odd Indie developer. Yeah their totally unbiased and professional they would be professional. Such a shame no one is coming out in defense for MS.
Jason Schreier said that he'd heard the same kind of praise from third-party devs. He especially has no reason to overstate and because of his reputation needs to be careful. That's why he has the whole reputation, by being right. How are we supposed to know (other than what they have recently said) if certain devs just like PS5's design more and think it's a better machine in their eyes. Why's that a bad thing?

Yes, Start Citizen the most demanding game in production ever, which won't come to console due to how demanding it is does just perfectly fine with a regular SSD it doesn't even need a NVME SDD so the notion that we are in need of something PS5 is putting in their box is insane.

It is nothing more than a overkill niche feature.
You're just throwing your own guesswork as facts. There's no way that Sony decided to pursue an expensive faster ssd over other things for it to be just an "overkill niche feature". Cerny said he has talked to hundreds of devs over the years and this is what they wanted. This praising dev response shouldn't be surprising at all when Sony just delivers something they requested.
 

Dark_Emil

Member
Apr 5, 2018
124
User banned (1 week): Inflammatory commentary. Platform wars.
The 1st party developers/ceo that are working at Naughty Dog and Ready at Dawn mixed in with the odd Indie developer. Yeah their totally unbiased and professional they would be professional. Such a shame no one is coming out in defense for MS.

None? You have all the youtubers, american and UK media shilling for Microsoft as if they were making the covid vaccine. Before that, they were all in for Stadia, thank god that bubble burst soon.

The triggering among xbox fans because some developers dare say anything good about PS5 (how dare they!!) is embarrassing to watch.
 

Jade1962

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,605
Intel Graphics guy:


Liked by devs from these companies:

- Guerilla Games
- Electronic Arts
- Avalanche Studios
- Massive Entertainment
- Monolith Productions
- Ubisoft
- Unity
- Nixxes Software
How does Intel benefit from PS5 sales? I wonder.

This whole situation reminds me of the Wii era when Nintendo fans had suffered through the GameCube generation and were certain Wii sales pace would make all the 3rd parties flock back to Nintendo. The anger and conspiracy theories thrown out on messages boards towards third parties when that didn't happen were legendary.

The crazy thing is none of these devs have said anything bad about XSX and I'm sure most if not all of their games will run better on XSX. They are simply stating their interest and curiosity in the PS5 design.
 

monmagman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
2,777
England,UK
This thread needs a goddamn purge.

Random ass verge commenters are suddenly a more believable source than first and third party devs. Fuck is wrong with this site.

This is how console warriors create a false narrative and it should frankly be banned.
The whole fucking gaming side forum should be banned based off the general rhetoric of the last few days.
This place is supposed to be somewhere with a higher level of discourse but has failed miserably in that regard since the PlayStation GDC talk.
Concern trolling is not moderated hard enough and it's fucking annoying to have half of every thread you want to read full of it.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,472
Long Island
The whole fucking gaming side forum should be banned based off the general rhetoric of the last few days.
This place is supposed to be somewhere with a higher level of discourse but has failed miserably in that regard since the PlayStation GDC talk.
Concern trolling is not moderated hard enough and it's fucking annoying to have half of every thread you want to read full of it.
Concern trolling in regards to consoles was not birthed here with the GDC talk, it has been going on forever. Especially with anything Microsoft related. We always knew it would get ugly when it came to this point because we would be comparing numbers.
 

Mubrik_

Member
Dec 7, 2017
428
Yo, DF are hearing this from devs with experience working on PS5? Got any links?
This very much.

Can someone point to actual developers talking about the clocks saying ' you have to clock one lower for the other to be higher '

He clearly stated in the presentation, continuous boost based on the required workload where power is constant, he expects the GPU and CPU to spend close to or always at the capped frequency.
The cooling solution he sounds gushed about was designed for a worse case scenario and in that worse case scenario he expects a very minor drop in power which isn't a big hit on the frequency.

That was like the easiest part of the presentation to understand and I'm not even that knowledgeable on this stuff .. scratch that HRTF was.. logged on this forum days after and was surprised to see people posting 9tf and the likes, I thought I had missed something important or new info was dropped.
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,732
None? You have all the youtubers, american and UK media shilling for Microsoft as if they were making the covid vaccine. Before that, they were all in for Stadia, thank god that bubble burst soon.

The triggering among xbox fans because some developers dare say anything good about PS5 (how dare they!!) is embarrassing to watch.
So anyone saying good thing about the Xbox is a shill but it’s different with those who praise the PS?

This thread along with any other about these new consoles is embarrassing.
And don’t even try to claim it’s only one side of the fan base.
Any kind of console warrior is cringe as fuck.
They are plastic toys!
Fucking cool plastic toys with fucking awsome Hardware in them. But ultimately a toy.
Stop caring about who “wins”! Games are going to look, sound and feel amazing and mind blowing on both.
Let’s celebrate these new consoles instead of making this an excuse to behave like spoiled children.
 

monmagman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
2,777
England,UK
Concern trolling in regards to consoles was not birthed here with the GDC talk, it has been going on forever. Especially with anything Microsoft related. We always knew it would get ugly when it came to this point because we would be comparing numbers.
Indeed,it has been around forever and is not moderated hard enough when it arises.....which is odd because it's very easy to spot when it happens.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,472
Long Island
None? You have all the youtubers, american and UK media shilling for Microsoft as if they were making the covid vaccine. Before that, they were all in for Sony
Fixed that for you

After 5-6 years of people praising Sony for everything and anything, and Microsoft basically being a joke (because they were before Spencer righted the ship) I noticed that whenever Microsoft did anything to fix their image, any positive change was met with happiness from the press but much disdain here. Threads has to be locked because people would shit them up too much with console war crap.

It's not that everyone is worshipping Microsoft right now. Some Sony fans are just NOT use to them getting consistent positive press. They thought the Mattrick sitgma would last forever and be the norm.

If anything both companies are in a GREAT place.

Sony with their Exclusives and Microsoft in their diversity of services, raw power and their willingness to be more than just Halo/gears/Forza with their studio aquistions.

You should be happy with both but you should be ok with them being treated equally again. The inequality has been removed and Microsoft has to be treated respectfully again.
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,365
None? You have all the youtubers, american and UK media shilling for Microsoft as if they were making the covid vaccine. Before that, they were all in for Stadia, thank god that bubble burst soon.

The triggering among xbox fans because some developers dare say anything good about PS5 (how dare they!!) is embarrassing to watch.
Are we in an alternate universe? The minute ps5 was revealed a lot of people latched on to high speed ssd and that it will revolutionize gaming as we know it. Ssd suddenly is the only thing that actually matter, while the power difference in Xbox, has been downplayed, all of sudden its diminishing returns and negligible difference
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,472
Long Island
No, people should treat each other respectfully, nobody ever says be respectful to Ford or Airbus.
When the mere mention of a company in a thread title brings out the worst of the worse here based around the stigma of the Xbox one presentation from 8 years ago...yeah it does. Things have to change here. It can't be another 7 years of hostility from the larger population of the forum.
 

metalgear89

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,329
Are we in an alternate universe? The minute ps5 was revealed a lot of people latched on to high speed ssd and that it will revolutionize gaming as we know it. Ssd suddenly is the only thing that actually matter, while the power difference in Xbox, has been downplayed, all of sudden its diminishing returns and negligible difference
SSD will revolutionize gaming. The power diffrence hasn't been downplayed it will be there but there are alot of things developers had to do to compensate for slow ass hard drives this gen those comprises will be drastically reduced this gen, looking at that i can understand why there is alot more focus on the ssd rather than raw power from devs.
 

AzerPhire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
351
SSD will revolutionize gaming. The power diffrence hasn't been downplayed it will be there but there are alot of things developers had to do to compensate for slow ass hard drives this gen those comprises will be drastically reduced this gen, looking at that i can understand why there is alot more focus on the ssd rather than raw power from devs.
I think his point is that the XSX has a high speed SSD as well so those gameplay revolutions will be there too. What remains to be seen is how much of an in game difference the PS5 one will have over XSX and right now that is completely unknown.
 

aisback

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,628
i can’t wait to see more info come out.

I can’t deny series x is a monster but I’m excited to see what Sony are going to do with their hardware (utilising it). If the hardware is truly easier to work with then we should see more indies on the console and hopefully games coming out faster on it.

Anyone know of the Kinect games are going to work on series X ?
 

Manmademan

Banned
Aug 6, 2018
7,387
Are we in an alternate universe? The minute ps5 was revealed a lot of people latched on to high speed ssd and that it will revolutionize gaming as we know it. Ssd suddenly is the only thing that actually matter, while the power difference in Xbox, has been downplayed, all of sudden its diminishing returns and negligible difference
I think its more accurate to say that the minute the ps5 was revealed the attention was on the teraflop disparity between the two systems to the exclusion of just about everything else.

The post reveal discussion has calmed down somewhat, but it's clear that Sony decided for some reason that a huge improvement in I/O speed was more meaningful than a 17% difference in GPU power. There's a lot of discussion about who is right, but it seems to be a "wait for the games" scenario. It's not clear cut here.

Similarly, no one really seems to understand what the "variable clocks" on the PS5 even refer to. There was two straight days of FUD swearing that the PS5 would be constantly throttled down and was "really" a 9TF system until more informed heads weighed in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,837
I think its more accurate to say that the minute the ps5 was revealed the attention was on the teraflop disparity between the two systems to the exclusion of just about everything else.

The post reveal discussion has calmed down somewhat, but it's clear that Sony decided for some reason that a huge improvement in I/O speed was more meaningful than a 17% difference in GPU power. There's a lot of discussion about who is right, but it seems to be a "wait for the games" scenario. It's not clear cut here.

Similarly, no one really seems to understand what the "variable clocks" on the PS5 even refer to. There was two straight days of FUD swearing that the PS5 would be constantly throttled down and was "really" a 9TF system until more informed heads weighed in.
The PS5 hasn’t even been fully revealed. So we still have some way to go before we know everything the system has to offer.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
871
The PS5's SSD is exciting, no doubt. The GPU's amazingly high frequency will certainly help it punch above it's weight, but if the Series X and the PS5 are both $499 consoles, I'll be thoroughly disappointed in how little Sony've invested in the GPU compared to Microsoft. IMO, it has to be cheaper - $399 vs $499.

It's not at all the scenario I imagined or hoped for. I would've loved two $499-599 consoles (so would most of Era). The variable frequencies don't inspire confidence either. I guess we'll see how it all works out, but I thought they'd be a lot more similar. The difference is at least 18 % so it could be even higher, GPU-wise (not accounting for the frequency differences).

I still hope Lockhart gets cancelled, so we'll at least have a ~10 tflops baseline (I'm aware Shinobi confirmed it's existence....)

What ever happened to aiming to beat Stadias numbers (10.7)? Schreier should've never set that expectation. I'll be a lot more weary in trusting anyone in the future. Still would love to hear an explanation from Klee though, if he ever shows up again... :)
 
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