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Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,921
The Netherlands
twitter.com

Louise Kirby on Twitter

“@IronMaaasel @blueisviolet @XcloudTimdog @digitalfoundry @Colteastwood @xboxdynasty What concerns me the most about the PS5's RT implementation is that there is no sign of a higher level API to do RT with All MC said was "you gotta use a new instruction in your shaders" which to me screams...

I believe Sony's GNM is pretty close (or similar) to Vulkan; Khronos Group recently released Vulkan Ray Tracing so my first guess would be that CNM will feature similar functions
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
twitter.com

Louise Kirby on Twitter

“@IronMaaasel @blueisviolet @XcloudTimdog @digitalfoundry @Colteastwood @xboxdynasty What concerns me the most about the PS5's RT implementation is that there is no sign of a higher level API to do RT with All MC said was "you gotta use a new instruction in your shaders" which to me screams...

Since when did a shader instruction mean ASM?

There will be new additions to the high level shader language on PS5 for ray tracing... why wouldn't there be?
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,810
Can anyone comment on this Youtuber Moore's Law is Dead? Is he known to be an impartial, reliable person, or someone who should be ignored?

His PS5 video popped up in my Youtube feed, and he claims to have spoken with devs regarding the PS5.


Been trying to find this out myself. Someone linked me to the video a couple days ago but I have no idea if they're worth listening to.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
twitter.com

Louise Kirby on Twitter

“@IronMaaasel @blueisviolet @XcloudTimdog @digitalfoundry @Colteastwood @xboxdynasty What concerns me the most about the PS5's RT implementation is that there is no sign of a higher level API to do RT with All MC said was "you gotta use a new instruction in your shaders" which to me screams...
What is most hilarious is that this person believes that blue guy, timdawg or colteastwood understands any of the technobabble that he spews.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,344
America
Jep, we already know that it is just stupid to believe that and the biggest showcase for that is the existence of Star Citizen which has an insane scale and works just fine on a "slow" SATA SDD who just read and write at about 500MB/s.

To put it in numbers: The Stanton Star Sytem alone is 747,989,353km³ big and there are ZERO load times whatever you do in it.

I can only recommend to watch the Digital Foundry 3 parter about Star Citizen and the tech behind it and maybe some will stop believing that the Sony SSD is some kind of miracle device that will enable games that aren't possible on either PC or Series X

Apples to oranges. Consoles are not PCs.

Can anyone comment on this Youtuber Moore's Law is Dead? Is he known to be an impartial, reliable person, or someone who should be ignored?

His PS5 video popped up in my Youtube feed, and he claims to have spoken with devs regarding the PS5.



I don't know if he's trustworthy, but would Sony really release at a $100 loss per console? Because that's what $399 would mean. Granted, if they release at $399 vs MS @ $499, they will automatically win the generation. Don't underestimate how strapped for cash people are :(
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Jep, we already know that it is just stupid to believe that and the biggest showcase for that is the existence of Star Citizen which has an insane scale and works just fine on a "slow" SATA SDD who just read and write at about 500MB/s.

To put it in numbers: The Stanton Star Sytem alone is 747,989,353km³ big and there are ZERO load times whatever you do in it.

In terms of what's needed to do X vs what's needed to do Y, that's a very difficult question to answer in the general.

But I would say, it's really not about the geographical size as much as the data 'density' of a game.

I can make a spatially 'infinite' game in 4KB. Or I could make a game occupying the size of a room that needs far more data than any console, current or next gen, can feed in terms of memory.
 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,921
The Netherlands
put it in numbers: The Stanton Star Sytem alone is 747,989,353km³ big and there are ZERO load times whatever you do in it.

Well, Frontier: First Encounters also simulates 1:1 scale star systems and has 1:1 scale planets you could real-time land on and that ran on an old 486 with just a few MBs from a very slow harddrive and 500KB of free RAM, I don't think simulated size is a the right metric in your example :)
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
I'm curious what perceived limits you guys are expecting in the XBOX SSD when paired with the new compression technology and new efficiencies using mesh shaders. Seems like we're really cutting the rendering fat and working with very fast I/O speeds. I don't see the limitations you guys do on the XBOX side. I'd say faster loading will be the PS5s major advantage potentially.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
twitter.com

Louise Kirby on Twitter

“@IronMaaasel @blueisviolet @XcloudTimdog @digitalfoundry @Colteastwood @xboxdynasty What concerns me the most about the PS5's RT implementation is that there is no sign of a higher level API to do RT with All MC said was "you gotta use a new instruction in your shaders" which to me screams...

A developer who don't work on PS systems and is keeping a conversation with Timdog and MisterXmedia...

Two times now in this thread this have happened? The PS5 specs must seriously be amazing since the only ones you guys seem to find being negative about it are also the ones spend time talking with the worst of the worst fanboys and conspiracy theory nuts on the internet.
 

Sabin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,623
In terms of what's needed to do X vs what's needed to do Y, that's a very difficult question to answer in the general.

But I would say, it's really not about the geographical size as much as the data 'density' of a game.

I can make a spatially 'infinite' game in 4KB. Or I could make a game occupying the size of a room that needs far more data than any console, current or next gen, can feed in terms of memory.
Well, Frontier: First Encounters also simulates 1:1 scale star systems and has 1:1 scale planets you could real-time land on and that ran on an old 486 with just a few MBs from a very slow harddrive and 500KB of free RAM, I don't think simulated size is a the right metric in your example :)

I knew that this was getting hand-waved but im pretty sure your few kb or mb simulation could do something like this right?



 

M3rcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
702
I'm curious what perceived limits you guys are expecting in the XBOX SSD when paired with the new compression technology and new efficiencies using mesh shaders. Seems like we're really cutting the rendering fat and working with very fast I/O speeds. I don't see the limitations you guys do on the XBOX side. I'd say faster loading will be the PS5s major advantage potentially.

Nope. It's a memory amplifier. The PS5 will be able to effectively operate as if it had way more than 16GB or RAM. The XBSX will also be able to do this, but to some lesser degree. The PS5 will be able to hold more and higher quality assets in memory for any given scene at any given framerate because it will be able to evict and replace assets in main memory faster.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
I'm curious what perceived limits you guys are expecting in the XBOX SSD when paired with the new compression technology and new efficiencies using mesh shaders. Seems like we're really cutting the rendering fat and working with very fast I/O speeds. I don't see the limitations you guys do on the XBOX side. I'd say faster loading will be the PS5s major advantage potentially.

If I were to try to simplify my mental modeling around it, I'd think of it more as a RAM advantage than a streaming advantage. I think that's easier to grok.

Assuming all else equal wrt the IO stacks, and all else equal with regard to RAM, if PS5 can stream data twice as fast as XSX and that results in a 'prefetch' window half as long as on XSX, then:

For a given character speed, for a given area size, PS5 will have 4x as much memory to spend per unit of area on streamed data than XSX.

If you boil it down to a memory/RAM advantage, it becomes a question of - can a given game scale its data usage beyond XSX's capacity or not?

I knew that this was getting hand-waved but im pretty sure your few kb or mb simulation could do something like this right?

Of course not, my point is simply you have to account for data requirements, not spatial extents. In a hypothetical future space game, does SC represent the limit of 'data density' that we ever might see in a game? Probably not. Will we see games with higher data needs - or ability to scale their data needs depending on different platform's capabilities, for different benefits - next-gen specifically? We'll see.
 
Last edited:

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,921
The Netherlands
I knew that this was getting hand-waved but im pretty sure your few kb or mb simulation could do something like this right?

I get your point, but then you've should have made an example about complex scenes and not used an argument regarding just a bunch of space-metrics. Mine (and gofreak's) point was that spatiality was a bad example.
 

Lys Skygge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,747
Arizona
I find it interesting that some seem to find a 20% power advantage to be a big deal, while downplaying a 100% SSD advantage.

Due to the strengths both consoles have, I think they'll both be $499
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Sry just want to ask you what your take on this tweet is and what he is referring to?

https://twitter.com/_ArtIsAVerb/status/1242516721673441280?s=20
I think if a person takes my comment out of context, it makes it sound like I think these consoles will not change open world game design. Which is not what I want to say. So I think a lot of people will disagree with that out of hand. Unfortunately that article also has a title which makes it sound like I think the PS5 will also not change open world design. I definitely think it will (XSX as well).
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
I think if a person takes my comment out of context, it makes it sound like I think these consoles will not change open world game design. Which is not what I want to say. So I think a lot of people will disagree with that out of hand. Unfortunately that article also has a title which makes it sound like I think the PS5 will also not change open world design. I definitely think it will (XSX as well).

100% The leap from last gen HDDs to XSX/Ps5 SSDs are going to revolutionize gaming
 

Deleted member 54073

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 22, 2019
3,983
A developer who don't work on PS systems and is keeping a conversation with Timdog and MisterXmedia...

Two times now in this thread this have happened? The PS5 specs must seriously be amazing since the only ones you guys seem to find being negative about it are also the ones spend time talking with the worst of the worst fanboys and conspiracy theory nuts on the internet.
I legit thought they were just a fanboy/girl
 

tutomos

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,612
Curious if he's right and it doesn't. Will that bother you? ;)
I'll only be bothered when 2 years down the road games are not taking full advantage of the SSD because some console manufacturers decided to bring down the baseline by releasing a next-gen console with hdd or requiring all first-party games to be playable on previous-gen consoles.

No, why wouldn't it?

Will Open World design change due to consoles having SSD? For sure but i highly doubt there be any meaningful differences between PS5, Series or PC in that regard.

Too early to tell what the impact of SSD will be when it's still ongoing. This is the first time SSD is included in consoles and required for all PS5 games from launch. Devs will use the SSD, to what degree we'll see.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,521
In this day and age? What's the difference in this context?
It still one system verses infinite combinations of hardware. Sony also has their development tools and APIs. Another important thing is that the CPU and GPU are on the same die and share memory resources. Something that's not common at all on PCs especially gaming PCs. This impacts how the system works for better or worse.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
2 different forms of performance and percentage of difference not the same with each other

It's apples to oranges but his point still stands. People are downplaying a 120% difference in SSD speeds while at the same time acting like a 17% difference in compute power is huge. It's really not though, it's a small difference and with dynamic resolutions and other software solutions I doubt there will be any significant differences and any differences that can be perceived won't be "huge".
 

Klokwerk

Member
Oct 29, 2017
234
How could it possibly be true when we had seamless and and detailed big openworld games on Xbox 360, PS3, Xbox One, PS4, switch and PC? And two of those consoles don't even require a hard drive.

Because for the first time with PS5, SSD speed is so high that it can be used as an RAM extension, which was not the case until now.

It's not about storage anymore.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,695
It's apples to oranges but his point still stands. People are downplaying a 120% difference in SSD speeds while at the same time acting like a 17% difference in compute power is huge. It's really not though, it's a small difference and with dynamic resolutions and other software solutions I doubt there will be any significant differences and any differences that can be perceived won't be "huge".
The problem though is that it's not just SSD speeds, raw and compressed, that are significantly faster with the PS5. It's also the whole I/O pipeline that has had more attention paid to it in the PS5. I fully expect a similar degree of setting itself apart in that department for the PS5, as XSX will set itself apart in terms of visual fidelity and framerate. Both consoles will be competent in all departments, but each with have its strengths to play to. This will likely mean that in terms of performance and capabilities, both of these machines will be in line with one another.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
It's apples to oranges but his point still stands. People are downplaying a 120% difference in SSD speeds while at the same time acting like a 17% difference in compute power is huge. It's really not though, it's a small difference and with dynamic resolutions and other software solutions I doubt there will be any significant differences and any differences that can be perceived won't be "huge".
It's because many here have already tried NVMe drives and seen fps differences from a small GPU difference. The hyper fast SSD advantages are only theoretical until we've seen a multiplat dev showcase it, at this point we only know for sure that it'll result in shorter load times.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
It's apples to oranges but his point still stands. People are downplaying a 120% difference in SSD speeds while at the same time acting like a 17% difference in compute power is huge. It's really not though, it's a small difference and with dynamic resolutions and other software solutions I doubt there will be any significant differences and any differences that can be perceived won't be "huge".

Devs can use that ~2TF of gpu power for anything. A game can target checkerboard for both ps5/XSX then the extra power will be used for alot more effects/assets/etc. Theres no mandate to make XSX games 4k like seen on 1X. Devs will use it any way. Especially devs start to use more of the multi rendering modes (graphics/performance/both) the extra power can be used and seen more. The power is there there's no denying that and what it means for devs is limitless
 

Xbox FanFest

Banned
Dec 30, 2019
369
I'll only be bothered when 2 years down the road games are not taking full advantage of the SSD because some console manufacturers decided to bring down the baseline by releasing a next-gen console with hdd or requiring all first-party games to be playable on previous-gen consoles.



Too early to tell what the impact of SSD will be when it's still ongoing. This is the first time SSD is included in consoles and required for all PS5 games from launch. Devs will use the SSD, to what degree we'll see.
To be fair, sounds like mostly only first party will take advantage of the PS5 ssd. 3rd party has PC and Xbox to think of as well.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I knew that this was getting hand-waved but im pretty sure your few kb or mb simulation could do something like this right?





Gat damn that first video. Thing is, there's still a lot of pop in, is he using a Sata or NVMe SSD? Presumably with the higher speed SSD's in the new consoles, not only could pop in be massively minimised, but you could actually push higher quality assets and a greater density of them.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
It's apples to oranges but his point still stands. People are downplaying a 120% difference in SSD speeds while at the same time acting like a 17% difference in compute power is huge. It's really not though, it's a small difference and with dynamic resolutions and other software solutions I doubt there will be any significant differences and any differences that can be perceived won't be "huge".
The thing about the SSD difference is that it's still not clear how that advantage will manifest in most games. So I wouldn't interpret any and all questions about that as "downplaying".

But on the other side of the discussion, we all know exactly what a CPU, GPU, and memory bandwidth advantage can bring about in the vast majority of games. It means more pixels and effects at a potentially smoother frame rate.

I think it's important to keep this in mind around these discussions. It's easy to see what those Series X advantages will result in. It's not so easy to know exactly the PS5 SSD advantage is going to mean.
 

Simuly

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 8, 2019
1,281
The thing about the SSD difference is that it's still not clear how that advantage will manifest in most games. So I wouldn't interpret any and all questions about that as "downplaying".

But on the other side of the discussion, we all know exactly what a CPU, GPU, and memory bandwidth advantage can bring about in the vast majority of games. It means more pixels and effects at a potentially smoother frame rate.

I think it's important to keep this in mind around these discussions. It's easy to see what those Series X advantages will result in. It's not so easy to know exactly the PS5 SSD advantage is going to mean.

Not really, because teraflops doesn't = performance does it, it's just one measurement of the GPU and GPU alone.

And that's without saying 17% difference in this one number is so small no-one will be able to tell the difference on multiplats.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
Devs can use that ~2TF of gpu power for anything. A game can target checkerboard for both ps5/XSX then the extra power will be used for alot more effects/assets/etc. Theres no mandate to make XSX games 4k like seen on 1X. Devs will use it any way. Especially devs start to use more of the multi rendering modes (graphics/performance/both) the extra power can be used and seen more. The power is there there's no denying that and what it means for devs is limitless

They can use those 2tf for whatever they want but I don't think it's weird to assume that alot of devs will be targeting native 4k first before looking at other things. It remains to be seen if devs choose to use stuff like dynamic resolutions to save on computing power even though they would not have to perse. Anyways those 2tf are still only 17% and will most likely result in some higher resolutions here and there or some more effects even though devs can use it for other things if they so wished.

Anyways your reply ignores most of my previous post.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
Not really, because teraflops doesn't = performance does it, it's just one measurement of the GPU and GPU alone.

And that's without saying 17% difference in this one number is so small no-one will be able to tell the difference on multiplats.
When did the world agree that teraflops are no longer a relevant measurement of GPU power? Because just a week ago it still seemed to be pretty important.