Its a response to dictator's posts from here.
Its a response to dictator's posts from here.
Technical Art Director. Yeah probably nothingInteresting, but what does a former art director at Naughty dog know about graphic design?
So I'm a total ignoramous, but how is having an SSD so revolutionary? Have we not had SSDs, particular m.2 NVMEs in PCs for years now? What make these console ones so different and so drastically improved upon?
So I'm a total ignoramous, but how is having an SSD so revolutionary? Have we not had SSDs, particular m.2 NVMEs in PCs for years now? What make these console ones so different and so drastically improved upon?
I might be in the minority but I'm so unimpressed anytime I see any SC footage. Everything from the environment to the NPC's looks so lifeless, so dead, lacking any kind of atmosphere. On a technical level it's probably insane, but It does nothing to me. It's like a bland tech demo
Despite being current gen games like RDR2, Death Stranding or Ghosts of Tsushima look so much better to me.
There are 2 reasons:So I'm a total ignoramous, but how is having an SSD so revolutionary? Have we not had SSDs, particular m.2 NVMEs in PCs for years now? What make these console ones so different and so drastically improved upon?
His posts are quoted in this article:
Think it was a joke. Sad thing is, that i'm not sure because of this Thread.
His posts are quoted in this article:
The PlayStation 5 SSD Will Not Change Open World Games Dramatically
Digital Foundry Content Producer Alexander Battaglia recently commented on the PlayStation 5 SSD and on how it will not, by itself, change open-world gameswccftech.com
PlayStation 5 Specs Revealed by EuroGamer (See Threadmarks)
Not a tech expert by any means, but historically games are designed around the platform with the greatest marketshare, with all others getting ports with various compromises. Lockhart isnt likely to grab enough marketshare to hold the other platforms back if Sony maintains a userbase anywhere...www.resetera.com
PlayStation 5 Specs Revealed by EuroGamer (See Threadmarks)
Reading the replies here you would think SX has to stream data from a 256kbps connection XD In reality it's still a blazing fast ssd and has features such as sampler feedback to only load the part of data that is needed and that's also able to deliver directly into the ram with a low latency...www.resetera.com
Thing is, where did Dictator talk about "procedural texturing" in his post ?
Unless I'm being mistaken, I feel like this person is replying to something that was never even said.
It was in one of the other tech threads .
We also had another dev chime it on what he said about the SSD when it comes to how fast they can get assets .
What is with all that random tagging of people for a discussion that is apparently on Twitter and on Era. If Alex wants to respond, he'll do that.
Nin95 link to his post about the "procedural texturing .
The one i talking about in the NXgamer thread about PS5.
I am not sure why he thinks I am talking about run time procedural texturing, as I am not wanting to talk about that? So I am not sure why he thinks I am? Perhaps I wrote it in a way where he thinks it is?
There are 2 reasons:
1) SSDs couldnt have been used as a baseline before because of consoles, now its possible which means games could be made under the assumption of fast asset streaming.
2) for the case of the PS5, one of the things cerny talked about is how an SSD that is 10x faster than the PS4's HDD only lends 2x loading improvement, the reason for that is the data streaming is bottlenecked by a lot of processes in the loading, and so Sony has built a custom silicon unit than handles all these bottlenecks, so that their SSD, which is roughly 100x faster than the PS4's HDD, actually streams data 100x as fast. There hasnt been a scenario where some component of a console got 100x faster in a long, long time.
not random, you just don't know contextWhat is with all that random tagging of people for a discussion that is apparently on Twitter and on Era. If Alex wants to respond, he'll do that.
Mhmm...
10x is the example that was used by cerny, basically if you were to use a SATA drive on a PS4, you would only really benefit up to 2x speed, but with the PS5, their 100x faster SSD actually performs 100x faster than the HDD in the PS4 thanks to all of their custom hardware.Well to be fair, being 10x the speed of a 5400rpm HDD isn't much to write home about. PS4 and X1 were using SUCH antiquated HDDs it's insane. Even the X1X uses a 5400rpm disc!!! Craziness. At least this gen they're using very current and quite high end components.
Also since when did an SSD have anything to do with graphical power or rendering? I mean, I feel like I'm living in crazy land, but a good CPU and GPU are vastly more important, no? SSDs are definitely a huge help and will work great in tandem with the other components, but are we not hyping up the drive a bit too much? Again, I'm saavy but I'm no Paul Allen.
Thx for detailed clarification, maybe some twitter conversation with Andrew? Surely would be very interesting for many.I am not sure why he thinks I am talking about run time procedural texturing, as I am not wanting to talk about that? So I am not sure why he thinks I am? Perhaps I wrote it in a way where he thinks it is?
My point is (I guess no one understands it still with the way I wrote it here on ResetEra, oddly enough it seems it was understood on Beyond3D?):
Imagine you have 2 ways to prepare a texture. One in which it is a completely bespoke 4k texture baked out from a high res model. Then you have another way where it has a lower base resolution (1024) and its detail is then made up by stamped or instanced trims, decals, shared repeating detail textures. The latter is the direction modern game dev has gone, and most especially modern open world development since you are sharing much of the detail layering between objects.
The first requires a lot more space on the disk and indeed in VRAM. It represents the idea of every object being wholly bespoke, unique, and static in memory as that asset. The other type of texturing system is smaller in VRAM and on Disk, and it also requires less artist time since you are not remaking an entire asset to create variation, rather you are changing decals, trims, base colour, etc. at run time in editor (as was shown to DF by Cloud Imperium Games, id, and I am very sure many other game studios have switched over to this method of detail creation). I called the later procedural, as I understand it as that. Not procedural as in "the GPU is generating textures".
The idea that an open world game would want fully bespoke completely unique details enabled by something like, textures, and therefore need to swap out huge swathes of (texture) data as you merely turn the camera about is anti-thetical to how asset reuse (trims, decals, tiling detail textures) is integral to making modern games with large scales where they cannot spend the time to make fully bespoke textures. It is also very confusing to imagine you would need to need to flush such large amounts GPU memory when turning the camera in such a game (even one with very unique textures per asset), considering you are only going to be seeing mip 0 very close to the camera. You would be swapping only a number of extremely large textures in reality, and further mid distance and far detail would perhaps not be swapping at all, or would be swapping mid chain low res mips. Why? To prevent aliasing, of course, which is why we use mipmaps as well.
But if you follow the logic of much of this thread, the SSD would enable unprecedented amounts of unique detail if you are swapping your VRAM constantly. Which would mean unprecedented amounts of disk space being used by games.the limited ram size increase means a fast ssd really helps to increase the effective access to assets in your game. Also critical to keep game install sizes under control as you don't need to duplicate assets for faster loading
the limited ram size increase means a fast ssd really helps to increase the effective access to assets in your game. Also critical to keep game install sizes under control as you don't need to duplicate assets for faster loading
Also since when did an SSD have anything to do with graphical power or rendering? I mean, I feel like I'm living in crazy land, but a good CPU and GPU are vastly more important, no? SSDs are definitely a huge help and will work great in tandem with the other components, but are we not hyping up the drive a bit too much? Again, I'm saavy but I'm no Paul Allen.
I am not sure why he thinks I am talking about run time procedural texturing, as I am not wanting to talk about that? So I am not sure why he thinks I am? Perhaps I wrote it in a way where he thinks it is?
My point is (I guess no one understands it still with the way I wrote it here on ResetEra, oddly enough it seems it was understood on Beyond3D?):
Imagine you have 2 ways to prepare a texture. One in which it is a completely bespoke 4k texture baked out from a high res model. Then you have another way where it has a lower base resolution (1024) and its detail is then made up by stamped or instanced trims, decals, shared repeating detail textures. The latter is the direction modern game dev has gone, and most especially modern open world development since you are sharing much of the detail layering between objects.
The first requires a lot more space on the disk and indeed in VRAM. It represents the idea of every object being wholly bespoke, unique, and static in memory as that asset. The other type of texturing system is smaller in VRAM and on Disk, and it also requires less artist time since you are not remaking an entire asset to create variation, rather you are changing decals, trims, base colour, etc. at run time in editor (as was shown to DF by Cloud Imperium Games, id, and I am very sure many other game studios have switched over to this method of detail creation). I called the later procedural, as I understand it as that. Not procedural as in "the GPU is generating textures".
The idea that an open world game would want fully bespoke completely unique details enabled by something like, textures, and therefore need to swap out huge swathes of (texture) data as you merely turn the camera about is anti-thetical to how asset reuse (trims, decals, tiling detail textures) is integral to making modern games with large scales where they cannot spend the time to make fully bespoke textures. It is also very confusing to imagine you would need to need to flush such large amounts GPU memory when turning the camera in such a game (even one with very unique textures per asset), considering you are only going to be seeing mip 0 very close to the camera. You would be swapping only a number of extremely large textures in reality, and further mid distance and far detail would perhaps not be swapping at all, or would be swapping mid chain low res mips. Why? To prevent aliasing, of course, which is why we use mipmaps as well.
But if you follow the logic of much of this thread, the SSD would enable unprecedented amounts of unique detail if you are swapping your VRAM constantly. Which would mean unprecedented amounts of disk space being used by games.
But if you follow the logic of much of this thread, the SSD would enable unprecedented amounts of unique detail if you are swapping your VRAM constantly. Which would mean unprecedented amounts of disk space being used by games.
Well to be fair, being 10x the speed of a 5400rpm HDD isn't much to write home about. PS4 and X1 were using SUCH antiquated HDDs it's insane. Even the X1X uses a 5400rpm disc!!! Craziness. At least this gen they're using very current and quite high end components.
But if you follow the logic of much of this thread, the SSD would enable unprecedented amounts of unique detail if you are swapping your VRAM constantly. Which would mean unprecedented amounts of disk space being used by games.
Would Sony raise their BOM "just" for faster load times if there is nearly no benefit in game compared to a SSD solution with half the speed?But if you follow the logic of much of this thread, the SSD would enable unprecedented amounts of unique detail if you are swapping your VRAM constantly. Which would mean unprecedented amounts of disk space being used by games.
I think you're very right, generally that is exactly how it will still work. I think the point is that that isn't required.
If you can't reload the entire memory when turning around, then what you are explaining has to be done. Meaning, you can't turn around and see something totally different. It has to be mostly the same as what was already in front of you, just re-arranged.
When you get the point that you could literally reload a giant chunk of memory in the time it takes to turn around, you don't have to do that anymore. Now, as a designer, you don't have to take these constraints into consideration, you can put whatever you want wherever you want in your game. That's Sony's goal, to eliminate these creative constraints so that you just don't have to think about it anymore.
I don't think he refer to how you build the world, but how it is rendered.That dev seems to claim there's no procedural texturing used in AAA games.
It seems like Far Cry 5 does ?
This fixation that some users have on discrediting Alex is now bordering on creepy. It might be time for the moderation team to step in and set some rules. I don't understand why it should be in any way acceptable for people to keep constantly tagging Alex and calling for him to respond to any comment, tweet or theory on the internet as if he is being put on trial. At which point does this stop being an ernest discussion in good faith and starts becoming harrassment?