DF Direct: PS5: The full technical specification

Oct 25, 2017
8,540
Underground
The teraflops isn't a metric for performance reminded me of this... Apple has always taught that specs arent everything, iPhones always had lower specs compared to the similar gen Android phones. However, iPhones can perform equally if not better than Android phones due to the design and cohesiveness between OS and hardware.
iPhones have actually had significantly more powerful SOCs than Android phones for years now.
 

Exodia

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Jan 9, 2020
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So from watching the vid.
  1. Ps5 is missing variable rate shading.
  2. Doesnt have machine learning chips built in.
  3. Also the ray tracing hw is weaker although they didn't go into super detail. But rogame says 44% less? Could DF confirm that?
 

PJV3

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Oct 25, 2017
9,248
London
The 3D audio sounds mindblowing, hearing individual droplets in the rain like irl. Seems like the definitive feature for me as someone who is a bit of an audiophile

That's actually crazy if it works that well. I understand the audio part more than the ssd part.
You just need to hope you have normal ears, or you will need to lend them to Sony to study.
 

Betelgeuse

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,814
So from watching the vid.
  1. Ps5 is missing variable rate shading.
  2. Doesnt have machine learning chips built in.
  3. Also the ray tracing hw is weaker although they didn't go into super detail. But rogame says 44% less? Could DF confirm that?
  1. See my post above. PS5 has VRS.
  2. XSX doesn't have an ML "chip". It has built-in support for ML operations. Which technically PS5 does too. The special feature that XSX has is the ability to do ML operations at reduced precision - i.e., higher efficiency. It is unknown if PS5 has this support. It's not inconceivable though, given Pro had FP16 support.
  3. That figure is not at all accurate. XSX should have an RT advantage, but that figure doesn't account for PS5's higher GPU clock.
 

Bjones

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Oct 30, 2017
5,078
so are we into “ specs don’t matter “ phase yet or are we still trying to push lower specs as something more? We can’t skip secret sauce!! Lol

TFs don’t matter ... unless you compare the same architecture which we are.

56 cus is better than 36. You can do more in parallel.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,704
Do we know what receivers will support tempest engine for their 3D sound?
Would they come out with a new codec for receivers to use?
I dont think so, all of their 3D audio on PSVR works on all headphones. I think Cerny mentioned they were focusing on headphones before and now TV speakers with surround setups later, so it might be stereo setups only for now
 

Vengeance

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Jan 11, 2018
4,292
so are we into “ specs don’t matter “ phase yet or are we still trying to push lower specs as something more? We can’t skip secret sauce!! Lol

TFs don’t matter ... unless you compare the same architecture which we are.

56 cus is better than 36. You can do more in parallel.
Seriously. The numbers are what they are. Why people feel the need to make anything more out of it is beyond me. This isn't Nvidia flops vs AMD flops.
 

darkside

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Oct 26, 2017
5,875
Really informative video that goes over the intracy of the two devices. They are -way- more bullish than most folks here are on the advantages of the PS5 SSD.
 

Fabtacular

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Jul 11, 2019
303
The AMD Smart Shift stuff is kinda wild?

Like, if you want to use the CPU to the full capacity you have to downclock your GPU. And if you want to use your GPU to full capacity you have to downclock the CPU.
 

Rumpestump

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Dec 8, 2018
907
The difference between performance and teraflops between the PS5 and XsX is because of the higher clocks. Basically higher clocks equals better performance per TF just as GCN vs RDNA gains if I understand correctly. What this means in the end for visuals we will probably have to wait and see but perhaps the already “close” gap between 10.2-12.1 is actually even smaller if PS5 can consistently keep the clocks that high.
 

RoboPlato

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Oct 25, 2017
3,238
John and Rich talking about the audio chip is very exciting. They explained it more clearly than Cerny did and put it in a clearer context.
 

nib95

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,967
So DF says you can get much more out of a GPU with higher clock frequencies than the Tflop count implies and doesn't factor in, primarily because a higher clock frequency means the caches have higher bandwidth, rasterisation rates improve in step with the clock speed etc.

Do we know how much these latter things would improve with a 2.23Ghz GPU (PS5) vs a 1.825GHz GPU (XSX)? In other words a 22.2% clock speed difference. Curious to know what benefits the higher clock speed allows that the Tflop count alone doesn't account for.

DF certainly seems impressed by the approach, and calls it highly innovative.
 

Conmex

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May 19, 2018
293
so are we into “ specs don’t matter “ phase yet or are we still trying to push lower specs as something more? We can’t skip secret sauce!! Lol

TFs don’t matter ... unless you compare the same architecture which we are.

56 cus is better than 36. You can do more in parallel.
Its amazing isnt it? People still fall for it.

Its blatant marketing by sony. Downplay the negatives, emphasize the positives.
 

Hieroph

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Oct 28, 2017
7,392
Great video, great stuff. This sounds like a slam dunk for Sony. Really impressed with what they're doing.
 

Bad_Boy

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Oct 25, 2017
3,340
The AMD Smart Shift stuff is kinda wild?

Like, if you want to use the CPU to the full capacity you have to downclock your GPU. And if you want to use your GPU to full capacity you have to downclock the CPU.
I think it's more like giving the CPU or GPU more power if you don't need it from the other chip. I could be wrong, but I imagine if you have a cutscene that doesn't require a lot of CPU you can send that power to the GPU. Or if you're in a lower graphic intensive area you could send GPU power to the CPU for physics calculations or something.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.
 

Radamammuth

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Dec 8, 2017
533
MELBOURNE - AU
So yeah this thing looks actually really unique and exiting. XSX looks like just a pc.
Obviously the xsex is going to be always better in multiplats minus loadings I guess, but PS5 exclusives should be something else.
 

Bjones

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Oct 30, 2017
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User Banned (1 Week): Conspiratorial rhetoric, prior bans for similar behavior
The difference between performance and teraflops between the PS5 and XsX is because of the higher clocks. Basically higher clocks equals better performance per TF just as GCN vs RDNA gains if I understand correctly. What this means in the end for visuals we will probably have to wait and see but perhaps the already “close” gap between 10.2-12.1 is actually even smaller if PS5 can consistently keep the clocks that high.
No it can’t the Xbox locked clocks will produce far better results than boost clocks that only last a few secs then tank performance even lower than base after because of thermal throttling.

warning pure speculation below:

It’s kind of painfully obvious that Sony unlocked the clocks last min to push their 9.2 tf to 10.2 on paper. Now they have to deal with power and thermal balance because of that.
 

Iwao

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,637
Overall they seem extremely positive about it and sounds like something to be excited for. Will be a real treat to see how SSD and audio tech is leveraged - appears to be a real focus and highlight of the console. Mad that there’s still lots more to reveal.

its uncanny the way 2013 is being reversed.

I remember reading stuff like this about the Xbox One design compared to PS4s “more conventional” approach.
PS5 doesn’t appear to be designed around too much other than what developers asked for. No misguided design principles. A well-balanced machine that avoids bottlenecks where it should. Not really the same.
 

Soulstar

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Oct 25, 2017
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nib95

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Oct 28, 2017
12,967
No it can’t the Xbox locked clocks will produce far better results that boost clocks that only last a few secs then tank performance even lower than base after because of thermal throttling.

warning pure speculation below:

It’s kind of painfully obvious that Sony unlocked the clocks last min to push their 9.2 tf to 10.2 on paper. Now they have to deal with power and thermal balance because of that.
This is simply not true. There is no thermal throttling on the PS5. I don't know if you guys are just regurgitating this inaccurate stuff in the Xbox Discord or on Twitter or something (hence we keep reading the same misinformation), but that is not how the PS5 determines frequency downclocks. They're not based on thermal conditions but a set power load. If you actually watched the video, DF explained as much, and also why it is unique vs other products and GPU's.

Some posts and responses explaining it after others posted similar notions.

----------
My interpretation is that the PS5 is not going to run at all the variable max speeds at once. If CPU use is lower, it can use boosted speed of the GPU and vice versa. In the end, it's the total combined heat consumption that matters. So if CPU is being maxed, it's a 9TF GPU.

Correct me if I missed it.
Matt has already stated the way you and Aegon are assuming things work is inaccurate. The clock speeds and variations aren't tied to heat consumption but a work/power load that has already been designed around max thermal acceptance.

I think this post explains it best.

That's not how I'm reading it. Instead the 3.5 GHZ CPU and 10.3 TF GPU run at those frequencies most of the time. However, if the software workload placed on them at any point in time would cause them to need to draw more power, instead of doing that, the PS5 reduces the frequencies and maintains a constant power draw. So as Cerney said, it would run at those frequencies most of the time and when the PS5 needs to decrease the frequencies to maintain the power cap, the decrease in frequencies would not be large.

And another.
Oh apologies I must have miss heard. So power draw drops ten percent but it only drops a couple of percent off the clock? Why would they even discuss this stuff. It all seems odd to me.

I feel they were deffo at 9.2 and they've really pushed this as hard as they can to make it to 10tf.

A couple of percent drops off the clock is negligible and I really dont think it needed to be a talking point unless to cover yourself if something more drastic happens. Like Dictator said It needs more clarification. I'm sure we will get answers over the coming weeks.
It's their way of explaining how their new solution will manage higher clock speeds without the heat issues that typically correlate with such speeds.

Essentially where variable power draw has historically contributed to greater variances in temperatures or performance, and where past boost implementations have tied performance directly to thermal headroom (eg in higher temperature environments, gaming frame-rates can be lower), the PS5 instead opts to work around a specific or set power draw for more consistent thermal management, and only drops in frequency in rare "worst case scenarios" in which the system wants to draw beyond the maximum power draw threshold. At least that's how I understood it.

Introducing boost for PlayStation 5
It's really important to clarify the PlayStation 5's use of variable frequencies. It's called 'boost' but it should not be compared with similarly named technologies found in smartphones, or even PC components like CPUs and GPUs. There, peak performance is tied directly to thermal headroom, so in higher temperature environments, gaming frame-rates can be lower - sometimes a lot lower. This is entirely at odds with expectations from a console, where we expect all machines to deliver the exact same performance. To be abundantly clear from the outset, PlayStation 5 is not boosting clocks in this way. According to Sony, all PS5 consoles process the same workloads with the same performance level in any environment, no matter what the ambient temperature may be.

So how does boost work in this case? Put simply, the PlayStation 5 is given a set power budget tied to the thermal limits of the cooling assembly. "It's a completely different paradigm," says Cerny. "Rather than running at constant frequency and letting the power vary based on the workload, we run at essentially constant power and let the frequency vary based on the workload."

Also Cerny had this to say about heat and cooling.

"Cerny acknowledges that thermal solutions on prior generation hardware may not have been optimal, but the concept of operating to a set power budget makes the concept of heat dissipation an easier task to handle, despite the impressive clocks coming from the CPU and GPU.

"In some ways, it becomes a simpler problem because there are no more unknowns," Cerny says in his presentation. "There's no need to guess what power consumption the worst case game might have. As for the details of the cooling solution, we're saving them for our teardown - I think you'll be quite happy with what the engineering team came up with."
 

boxingiscool

Member
May 15, 2019
3,482
So yeah this thing looks actually really unique and exiting. XSX looks like just a pc.
Obviously the xsex is going to be always better in multiplats minus loadings I guess, but PS5 exclusives should be something else.
Both look pretty powerful. I wonder - if I move RDR2 to XSX - would that improve its loading screens?
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,827
England
The chip design sounds really interesting, how it is tailored around the SSD solution. This reminds me of the original PS4 pitch, a collection of well balanced components that are customised to work in harmony.

i wonder if some of this is around being able to do more but with using less? Either to keep cost mass market or to offset that SSD.
 

Spasm

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Nov 16, 2017
477
Just finished the SSD expansion part of the video... They did touch on how NVME PCIe 4 SSDs are NOT going to be cheap. I think people are going to be shocked how pricey these things will be when they first come out.

Also still don't know if an external HDD can store PS5 games.
 

Ishida

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,518
México
so are we into “ specs don’t matter “ phase yet or are we still trying to push lower specs as something more? We can’t skip secret sauce!! Lol

TFs don’t matter ... unless you compare the same architecture which we are.

56 cus is better than 36. You can do more in parallel.
Specs DO matter.

However, a lot of people refuse to understand that the power difference between the two machines is lesser than that of the OG PS4 and the Xbox One.

If some fanboys want to pass up the "12 VS 10.3" difference as something like the difference from the PS4 Pro to the Xbox One X, they are going to be deeply disappointed. These two machines are closer in power than any other consoles before. So what else should DF focus on, if not the BIGGEST difference between them?

And about this "56 cus is better than 36. You can do more in parallel.", you clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. That is not how that works.
 

Rumpestump

Member
Dec 8, 2018
907
No it can’t the Xbox locked clocks will produce far better results than boost clocks that only last a few secs then tank performance even lower than base after because of thermal throttling.

warning pure speculation below:

It’s kind of painfully obvious that Sony unlocked the clocks last min to push their 9.2 tf to 10.2 on paper. Now they have to deal with power and thermal balance because of that.
Another one that have NO idea what they are talking about I see.

Why don’t you go and read about how this boost is not a regular boost and the max is the regular speed and thermals is not an issue before you spread bullshit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,663
United Kingdom
No it can’t the Xbox locked clocks will produce far better results than boost clocks that only last a few secs then tank performance even lower than base after because of thermal throttling.
Unless Sony get the cooling solution really wrong, it sounds like the clocks will mostly run at the optimal speeds and only drop a small amount, if really needed, to keep the temps under control, according to the DF article anyway.

It doesn't seem like the boost will only last "a few secs" and then throttle right down.