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diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,266
Just from what they've shown, it seems pretty far along for something that's four years away.

They showed a HUGE world map and said the small portion they showed was all that they had and what seemed to be like an extremely barebones item system. I'd say they got the tech in place to make the game, now they just gotta build it. I'd be shocked if it came out in anything less than 2 years.
 

DvdGzz

Banned
Mar 21, 2018
3,580
So, I hope Lost Ark and now PoE 2 will force Blizzard to put more people on the team to get this out faster. I don't want a rushed product of course but if 145 guys can pump out PoE 2 a year from now, I don't see why a company with thousands can't finish D4 by May 2021.
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
So, I hope Lost Ark and now PoE 2 will force Blizzard to put more people on the team to get this out faster. I don't want a rushed product of course but if 145 guys can pump out PoE 2 a year from now, I don't see why a company with thousands can't finish D4 by May 2021.
Because 9 women can't make a baby in a month. It's game development, building something from the ground up just takes a lot of time and you can't simply speed the process up by putting hundreds of people on it.

Those PoE devs have put 10+ years of development into this thing in order to create stuff as quickly as possible, they have all the shit in place for them. Blizzard would've been able to deliver more stuff quickly if they would've made another D3 expansion, but I'd guess they knew that D3 was fundamentally flawed and wasn't truly fixable even with another expansion cause you'd have had to re-do a lot of the core, which wasn't really possible. That's why it's pretty baffling that they're still apparently moving forward with some of those flawed D3 aspects like the bullshit itemization, especially since they're basically out there saying they want to make another D2.
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
I think the bigger problem is that Blizzard isn't innovating big, they're innovating small with D4. They're changing certain systems in small'ish ways and change how certain numbers work, etc., but they I think they'd need to radically re-think how Top Down ARPGs should work. Click and Point combat systems don't really make sense in todays time, a lot of the cool conceptual ideas they had for D3 were never realized and also apparently aren't on the table for D4 and I think the world state event stuff (which is one of the bigger innovations) isn't really all that exciting for Diablo fans.

I think Mosqueira got it, he understood that in order for this thing to keep going, some big changes needed to happen... and he got whacked for thinking outside the box.

They're not innovating at all in terms of core gameplay. They've clearly stepped backwards from any complexity in that regard. I agree the few new changes, the ingame "social areas" are mild and unimpressive at best.

So they've simplified the game systems, like most modern RPG companies have, and are designing some social media flavored features. Clearly they're aiming for mass appeal. What they have is not interesting to "core" gamers, RPG fans, or longtime Diablo fans. And given how tepid the social systems are it probably won't have much staying power with the general public, beyond being flavor of the week on Twitch.

Of course, they have 2-3 years to design more systems and content, so maybe they'll turn it around. But as a first showing, it's not impressive. Then again, maybe that's the point after a year of bad Blizzard PR: it exists simply to say "forget that other stuff; Diablo 4 exists and we're working on it."
 

Anarkin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
121
They showed a HUGE world map and said the small portion they showed was all that they had and what seemed to be like an extremely barebones item system. I'd say they got the tech in place to make the game, now they just gotta build it. I'd be shocked if it came out in anything less than 2 years.

The guy who leaked pretty much everything before Blizzcon said they aim for late 2020 or early 2021.

Right now the goal is to get the game ready playable demo for Blizzcon's 2019 and of course all the marketing material as well. After that, it will be preparing for the beta in 2020 and then the release.
Release is being debated between late 2020 or early 2021 depending on how things go, but as of now it seems early 2021 is more likely. Will be coming to PC PlayStation 5 and Project Scarlett.

 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,424
Just from what they've shown, it seems pretty far along for something that's four years away.

I would have laughed at anyone who would have suggested Starcraft 2 is still 3 years off after playing it shortly after its unveiling. If things haven't changed this past year, that is kinda how Blizzard works.

Diablo 4 seems in a similar state. More a very polished proof of concept than an actual game.
 

diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,266
The guy who leaked pretty much everything before Blizzcon said they aim for late 2020 or early 2021.

I mean they can aim for whatever target they want ya know, but again, if what they said was true, that all they had was what they brought to Blizzcon, I'd be shocked if they got it out in under 2 years.
 

DvdGzz

Banned
Mar 21, 2018
3,580
Because 9 women can't make a baby in a month. It's game development, building something from the ground up just takes a lot of time and you can't simply speed the process up by putting hundreds of people on it.

Those PoE devs have put 10+ years of development into this thing in order to create stuff as quickly as possible, they have all the shit in place for them. Blizzard would've been able to deliver more stuff quickly if they would've made another D3 expansion, but I'd guess they knew that D3 was fundamentally flawed and wasn't truly fixable even with another expansion cause you'd have had to re-do a lot of the core, which wasn't really possible. That's why it's pretty baffling that they're still apparently moving forward with some of those flawed D3 aspects like the bullshit itemization, especially since they're basically out there saying they want to make another D2.

Thanks for the insight.
 

HexedHavoc

Member
May 19, 2018
253
Melbourne, Australia
I finally got round to recording my video with some of my ideas for Diablo 4. I go over several ideas and some of them even offer solutions to some of the stuff you guys have been talking about :)



Let me know what you guys think (plz excuse the run time, I could talk about this stuff for hours so getting it down to 40 minutes I can accept :P)
 
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Fall Damage

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,055
I get that and there's definitely some truth to that. When D3 came out, people expected a game on the quality level of D2 and the sad fact is that it just wasn't. Not even close. The Auction House made no sense at all for a game like D3, it was just shoehorned into the game half a year or so before release and it just completely ran counter to D3's core gameplay loop. But that wasn't the only issue, the D3 design team just fundamentally didn't understand some of the core aspects that made D2 tick. I usually never throw other designers under the bus, but Jay Wilson was just the wrong person to put in charge of D3. He was responsible for some core changes that just put the game into a state where it wasn't really 'fixable' even with expansions and so on (don't get me started on the Paragon system... a horribly grindy design patch on top of a fundamentally flawed system... terrible). There was no skill system anymore, they didn't like the fact that people were able to look up optimal build stats on a Wiki, so their response was to just completely remove the skill system, to remove player choice and weigh everything insanely towards itemization, which made the game incredibly shallow... and it also killed the fantasy. Playing a mage and running around with a heavy Barb two-hander completely broke the class fantasy, but that's what you had to do to gain an edge due to shallow systems.

I get that people would basically be happy if they'd 'just get another Diablo 2', but you're not getting that by just creating a carbon copy of a thing you already made. D2, when it came out, was pretty revolutionary. It improved upon every aspect of Diablo 1 and successfully so. It still had some silly systems in it (what in the world was the stamina / run shit for? I don't understand that to this day), but it was a damn fine game and the systems made the game almost infinitely replayable - D3 due to its shallow almost arcade-like quality just didn't have that. If you want to create the next big thing in a franchise, sometimes you have to innovate and take the next step, even if that step is a bit radical and might offend your old school fans for a bit (Until they 'get' that it's the right step forward). The proper sequel to 2d Mario at some point had to be Super Mario 64. If they would've gone 3d by doing what New Super Mario Bros did, nobody would have cared. Again, Point and Click Combat is a relic of the past. There's tons of games out there that show how the combat system in those games should work, but Blizzard at this point is just trying to do the same old, same old and that'll bite them in the butt, cause somebody is gonna come in and do it right.

I agree with just about all of this but being an old PC guy I like my old point click mechanics :)

It's an interesting question though, how long will the Diablo-like top down ARPG gameplay be able to survive with all of the 3d games out there that offer similar item hunts and RPG lite character building? D3 pumped life back into the genre after its 2008 reveal and soon after Torchlight, Grim Dawn, and PoE all released. Will the hype around D4 and PoE 2 spawn off other successful IPs in the same vein or will gamers demand an evolution of gameplay? Regardless of the direction future Diablo titles take will there continue to be a place for ISO hack 'n' slash loot hunt games like we've seen in recent years with other throwback titles Divinity OS and Pillars of Eternity in the RPG space? I can only hope so.
 

Fall Damage

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,055
A post from David Kim:

Itemization

We're still working through all the feedback that came in regarding itemization and we're actively discussing ways to add more depth and complexity to base items (including Rares), ways to add greater variety to item affixes to make those powers interesting and your choices meaningful, and ways to give players more freedom to choose how to customize items, so you can have fun exploring a wide range of effective gameplay possibilities instead of just looking up "the optimal build" online.

We'll go into way more depth regarding itemization in a separate post soon, but we don't want to leave you hanging until then—so we're going to update you on a few other topics now.


Some interesting insights about where they're at on a few topics being discussed in the community.
 
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Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,383
I really felt like loot didn't matter at all in D3. Everything felt the same. Every weapon could have been a stick with a damage number and I wouldn't know the difference.

The armor? Same thing. It was a defense number with some other minor stats. It really didn't matter. Just keep the thing that gives you the most defense. Yes, there were exceptions but I'm generalizing. There were no "builds". The items didn't enhance abilities in a cool way. I'm just so disappointed. I hope D4 is a proper RPG. It's scary though that the leak says they are focusing on consoles from the start. I really hope we don't get another game made with watered down mechanics and systems.
 
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HexedHavoc

Member
May 19, 2018
253
Melbourne, Australia
I really felt like loot didn't matter at all in D3. Everything felt the same. Every weapon could have been a stick with a damage number and I wouldn't know the difference.

The armor? Same thing. It was a defense number with some other minor stats. It really didn't matter. Just keep the thing that gives you the most defense. Yes, there were exceptions but I'm generalizing. There were no "builds". The items didn't enhance abilities in a cool way. I'm just so disappointed. I hope D4 is a proper RPG. It's scary though that the leak says they are focusing on consoles from the start. I really hope we don't get another game made with watered down mechanics and systems.

Wut... did you only play at launch or something?
 

DvdGzz

Banned
Mar 21, 2018
3,580
I'm convinced that most D3 detractors only played with the first year. D3 is awesome now. Some people will never give it another chance. I'm sure there are those who do the same for No Man's Sky and if/when Anthem is overhauled, it will always be the launch game to some people.
 

Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,383
Wut... did you only play at launch or something?

I played at launch and admittedly not much of reaper of souls. I played a bit but I just don't remember the loot being that exciting. The numbers went up but it didn't really change how I play the character. It felt like, do you want more life or more damage? You just spam attacks and run over enemies to fill up your mana pool. It's just strange. It's not really tactical like Diablo 1 or 2 was. In those games you had to be prepared or else you'd get rocked. Yes that meant buying 30+ health and mana potions but I liked that. I liked having a resource that didn't auto generate by itself. You could have stats or equipment that would help you do that. In D3 it just feels like it was all on autopilot. I loved the feel of the combat but hated the skill system. Also the balance was real weird. Either the enemies were super easy to kill or they were all tanks. I did like the game.

It was definitely fun, it just wasn't as good as D1 or D2. In those games I felt like I was on a journey. I felt like I prepared to go out into the darkness and I had to manage my resources. D3 just felt like an arcady masher. Fun, but it was just a totally different feeling.
 

HexedHavoc

Member
May 19, 2018
253
Melbourne, Australia
I played at launch and admittedly not much of reaper of souls. I played a bit but I just don't remember the loot being that exciting. The numbers went up but it didn't really change how I play the character. It felt like, do you want more life or more damage? You just spam attacks and run over enemies to fill up your mana pool. It's just strange. It's not really tactical like Diablo 1 or 2 was. In those games you had to be prepared or else you'd get rocked. Yes that meant buying 30+ health and mana potions but I liked that. I liked having a resource that didn't auto generate by itself. You could have stats or equipment that would help you do that. In D3 it just feels like it was all on autopilot. I loved the feel of the combat but hated the skill system. Also the balance was real weird. Either the enemies were super easy to kill or they were all tanks. I did like the game.

It was definitely fun, it just wasn't as good as D1 or D2. In those games I felt like I was on a journey. I felt like I prepared to go out into the darkness and I had to manage my resources. D3 just felt like an arcady masher. Fun, but it was just a totally different feeling.

Trust me I know what you mean, my main problem with loot games is how the increase of numbers is boring as hell. My Diablo 4 feedback video actually goes over this with some unique ways to make loot/stats more exciting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN9y_1Tl_c8). With that said, they did improve the loot a lot in d3 and made lots of legionaries with cool effects.
 

b00_thegh0st

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,017
I really felt like loot didn't matter at all in D3. Everything felt the same. Every weapon could have been a stick with a damage number and I wouldn't know the difference.

The armor? Same thing. It was a defense number with some other minor stats. It really didn't matter. Just keep the thing that gives you the most defense. Yes, there were exceptions but I'm generalizing. There were no "builds". The items didn't enhance abilities in a cool way. I'm just so disappointed. I hope D4 is a proper RPG. It's scary though that the leak says they are focusing on consoles from the start. I really hope we don't get another game made with watered down mechanics and systems.

In post RoS D3 loot is everything and the character is the meaningless part. Every barb is the same, every monk is the same... Your build is the loot.

I've started hardcore a few days ago and got a demon hunter to 70 from nothing through story mode. Looted a quiver in the mid 30s which negates hatred consumption on rapid fire and I'm still using it post-game. Just got the cube so that will change soon but still... Loot is everything in D3.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Because 9 women can't make a baby in a month. It's game development, building something from the ground up just takes a lot of time and you can't simply speed the process up by putting hundreds of people on it.

Those PoE devs have put 10+ years of development into this thing in order to create stuff as quickly as possible, they have all the shit in place for them. Blizzard would've been able to deliver more stuff quickly if they would've made another D3 expansion, but I'd guess they knew that D3 was fundamentally flawed and wasn't truly fixable even with another expansion cause you'd have had to re-do a lot of the core, which wasn't really possible. That's why it's pretty baffling that they're still apparently moving forward with some of those flawed D3 aspects like the bullshit itemization, especially since they're basically out there saying they want to make another D2.
This so god damn much, I really don't get it and hope they listen to the feedback of people who know what they are talking about.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
I'm convinced that most D3 detractors only played with the first year. D3 is awesome now. Some people will never give it another chance. I'm sure there are those who do the same for No Man's Sky and if/when Anthem is overhauled, it will always be the launch game to some people.
I really wish people stop treating other people as morons. A lot of constructive criticism for D3 comes from people experienced in ARPG genre and trust me, most of them played not only at launch, but at RoS launch and several seasons in as well.
D3 is good game, it really is, but its really flawed ARPG.

Personally i had more fun with vanilla D3 than i had with any update after they scrapped Inferno. I think the concept of Inferno was cool, but they messed up the balance and progression, the Act 4 of Hell and Act 1 of Inferno were amazing, everything after that was just stupid. I couldnt get an upgrade to my gear after farming 30h of Act 1 Inferno, because loot keept dropping lvl 56 and 57 items and power level difference between even ilvl 60 and 61 was just ridiculous.
 

DvdGzz

Banned
Mar 21, 2018
3,580
I really wish people stop treating other people as morons. A lot of constructive criticism for D3 comes from people experienced in ARPG genre and trust me, most of them played not only at launch, but at RoS launch and several seasons in as well.
D3 is good game, it really is, but its really flawed ARPG.

Personally i had more fun with vanilla D3 than i had with any update after they scrapped Inferno. I think the concept of Inferno was cool, but they messed up the balance and progression, the Act 4 of Hell and Act 1 of Inferno were amazing, everything after that was just stupid. I couldnt get an upgrade to my gear after farming 30h of Act 1 Inferno, because loot keept dropping lvl 56 and 57 items and power level difference between even ilvl 60 and 61 was just ridiculous.


So we differ in our opinions. I've read countless posts on FB from people who I could tell knew next to nothing about how it has gotten better with updates, I said most haven't played it since it's first year, you say most not only played at launch but RoS and beyond, we can agree to disagree. I never said they were morons, just ignorant to the updates. You give the masses too much credit. You're an exception.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,855
I played at launch and admittedly not much of reaper of souls. I played a bit but I just don't remember the loot being that exciting. The numbers went up but it didn't really change how I play the character. It felt like, do you want more life or more damage? You just spam attacks and run over enemies to fill up your mana pool. It's just strange. It's not really tactical like Diablo 1 or 2 was. In those games you had to be prepared or else you'd get rocked. Yes that meant buying 30+ health and mana potions but I liked that. I liked having a resource that didn't auto generate by itself. You could have stats or equipment that would help you do that. In D3 it just feels like it was all on autopilot. I loved the feel of the combat but hated the skill system. Also the balance was real weird. Either the enemies were super easy to kill or they were all tanks. I did like the game.

It was definitely fun, it just wasn't as good as D1 or D2. In those games I felt like I was on a journey. I felt like I prepared to go out into the darkness and I had to manage my resources. D3 just felt like an arcady masher. Fun, but it was just a totally different feeling.

The game is better in high grs and unless your 105+ you really won't be challenged.

I say this and the last season I played I was rank 3 at gr140+ on 4p boards within first week or two.

I say this complaint but short of having a high solo or high hardcore this is an empty complaint. Want a challenge push yourself solo to 120-135 gr with little help. Same for doing it hardcore.

Some enemies are naturally tanky. Anything with juggernaut in grs 115+ require insane dps and some buff to down quickly short of being a necro. Best players fish enemies to avoid your problems. and wizards group them up and whittle them down over fights.

It may not be your thing but the game isn't a push over at its top end. If you had a guy that did it I wouldn't make the post but you don't and think that should mentioned.