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Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Scotland
The amount of suffering that Thatcher and her party has caused to the unfortunate people in this country is downright evil and all based on the backwards class system that operates here. Never will I vote for that despicable party and hearing people who vote for them fills me with disappointment.
 

Operon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
121
What a crazy question, thatcher ruined the country as for may shes a wannbe and she too is destroying the country as well
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
Just to provide a bit of perspective, there isn't many state funerals for dead leaders in history that looked like this:

britain-thatcher-funeral.jpg


919334500ae5ce538b0da15c90e9ef1a.jpg


ay_108047916.jpg


web-thatcher-rust-ap.jpg


PA-16295050.jpg


The pure, unbridled hatred for Thatcher was palpable, and for what felt like 50% of the UK, her death was a cause for celebration and not grief. That says a lot about the person, if nothing else.
 

Crocks

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
963
They knew the impact of their policies, they enacted them.
There are governments and regimes out there who actually do "actively murder" people. When political opponents end up dead in the streets of Moscow or poisoned in London, or protesters beaten to death in Venezuela or disappearing in the middle of the night in China for what you post online. That's "actively murdering" people. You can disagree with a policy and think it's outcomes are awful without it being "active murder".

If the bar was "they knew the impact of the policies (death), they enacted them" then I doubt there's a government in the world that doesn't fit the definition. When the NHS decides between either more people getting worse cancer drugs or less people getting more, their decision results in deaths. When a government decides that the efficiency benefits of a speed limit being 70mph (rather than 60mph or 50mph or 10mph), their decision kills people. When an A&E department gets closed in a village because the money could save more lives bolstering capacity elsewhere, the decision kills people. But not doing It kills people.

I'm not saying "ergo decisions don't matter". I'm saying your bar is ludicrous and your misuse of the term "actively murder" does a disservice to the people who are actually actively murdered by their governments.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,643
I'm not saying "ergo decisions don't matter". I'm saying your bar is ludicrous and your misuse of the term "actively murder" does a disservice to the people who are actually actively murdered by their governments.
Like the people of the UK who are actively murdered by Tory austerity policies.

It's not a contest, governments killing people is on a spectrum from outight execution to running vital services into the ground, does the fact the goverment didn't put a bullet in their back bring comfort to victims or their families?

Austerity was a war against the vulnerable and there were casualties.
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
4,350
The truth as ever is quite complicated. A lot of communities were irrevocably destroyed however I am unsure that 1970's Britain was such a utopia to begin with that it could be 'destroyed' by anyone. Despite what you may read here she is not universally loathed. May in comparison is a kite tossed in a hurricane.
 

Tango Scene

Banned
Dec 31, 2017
28
People either have very short memories or simply weren't around pre-Thatcher to appreciate just how bad things had got. Despite a Labour government that was more left-leaning than today, the UK was a complete mess. The unions had become detached from reality resulting in unsustainable wage increases, sizable unemployment and runaway inflation.

The consequence of this was the UK under Callaghan having to be bailed out by the IMF. The UK had quite rightly become the sick-man of Europe and the entire economy came to a halt. The period was marked by more people leaving the country than entering it.

If an IMF bailout doesn't demonstrate to people just how bad things had descended, I suggest people read up about the Winter of Discontent. When dustmen went on such a prolonged strike (http://www.businessinsider.com/thatcher-and-the-winter-of-discontent-2013-4?IR=T) that parks, squares and roads had to be closed to enable rubbish to pile up. Even dead bodies began to pile up when the gravediggers stopped working.

There was even a long period where due to rationing of electricity, people worked three-day weeks and the BBC and ITV alternated who went off air early in the evening.

In summary, I think a lot of people on this forum would be deceiving themselves if they thought that pre-Thatcher UK was working.

That isn't to say that Thatcher was some untouchable messiah. The poll tax was fudged, and she failed to follow-up with certain policies such as house-building and re-education schemes.

May in contrast is simply incomparable to Thatcher; leaderless, clueless and bereft of ideas and policies.
 

PipefishUK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
683
People who like Thatcher are almost always either - filthy rich, thick as shit, or both.

Today's Tories are just as bad - yet they'd still likely win an election if there were one tomorrow. A lot of the people who'd vote for them are the very people they'll fuck over. It's pathetic.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
People either have very short memories or simply weren't around pre-Thatcher to appreciate just how bad things had got. Despite a Labour government that was more left-leaning than today, the UK was a complete mess. The unions had become detached from reality resulting in unsustainable wage increases, sizable unemployment and runaway inflation.

The consequence of this was the UK under Callaghan having to be bailed out by the IMF. The UK had quite rightly become the sick-man of Europe and the entire economy came to a halt. The period was marked by more people leaving the country than entering it.

If an IMF bailout doesn't demonstrate to people just how bad things had descended, I suggest people read up about the Winter of Discontent. When dustmen went on such a prolonged strike (http://www.businessinsider.com/thatcher-and-the-winter-of-discontent-2013-4?IR=T) that parks, squares and roads had to be closed to enable rubbish to pile up. Even dead bodies began to pile up when the gravediggers stopped working.

There was even a long period where due to rationing of electricity, people worked three-day weeks and the BBC and ITV alternated who went off air early in the evening.

In summary, I think a lot of people on this forum would be deceiving themselves if they thought that pre-Thatcher UK was working.

That isn't to say that Thatcher was some untouchable messiah. The poll tax was fudged, and she failed to follow-up with certain policies such as house-building and re-education schemes.

May in contrast is simply incomparable to Thatcher; leaderless, clueless and bereft of ideas and policies.

Prime whataboutism. You should debate the merits of her policies rather than going on about how bad an earlier Prime Minister was.

I was born in 1974. I grew up under Thatcher. I very much blame her for the seed of selfishness that permeates through British culture. She destroyed the heart of the country and sold up for short term profits the meat that kept it all together. And that's before getting in to things like war and the destruction of the unions, the affects of which can be seen in the likes of the prevalence of zero hours contracts in the UK. Works rights have been utterly eroded and it all started with Thatcher.
 

PipefishUK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
683
Yeah - what about what Labour potentially did NEARLY HALF A CENTURY AGO... That none of us really remember because we were either small children or we weren't born yet.

Not saying non of it was their fault or anything of the like. But everyone completely forgets how the oil crisis contributed to all that.

Remember when the Tories crashed the economy in the early 90s and we crashed out of the ERM?

We could go on all day like this. It's mostly irrelevant.

Tory policies are literally killing people right now and their in-fighting and pandering to idiots is about to cause them to fuck things up like never before. That's all that should matter.

But remember 1973?..

Back on topic though. Thatcher started all this unrestricted greed and selfishness and that's what's led to where we are now.
 
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Tango Scene

Banned
Dec 31, 2017
28
Prime whataboutism. You should debate the merits of her policies rather than going on about how bad an earlier Prime Minister was.

I was born in 1974. I grew up under Thatcher. I very much blame her for the seed of selfishness that permeates through British culture. She destroyed the heart of the country and sold up for short term profits the meat that kept it all together. And that's before getting in to things like war and the destruction of the unions, the affects of which can be seen in the likes of the prevalence of zero hours contracts in the UK. Works rights have been utterly eroded and it all started with Thatcher.
Except the problem wasn't one previous PM, it was successive Conservative and Labour PM's and governments that led to the country going off a cliff. Brexiteers and those not keen on the reforms under Thatcher have this equally deluded view that pre-EU/Thatcher was this land of happiness and honey, when that couldn't be further from the truth. There are certainly many flaws with today's society, but no sane individual would want to go back to the UK of the 70's.

But let me address the four points you raised. Selfishness is a human trait, not unique to the UK or capitalism, nor was it invented under Thatcher.

I don't see what could have been done to avoid the Falklands war when it was unprovoked and initiated by a hostile foreign power. It was also publicly very popular despite the loss of life.

The unions had to be broken because they had run the country into the ground; inflation was running at something like 25% before the arrival of Thatcher. Hospitals closing, rubbish and dead bodies piling up, three-day weeks, these events were the result of unions that had become detached from reality and making unreasonable demands. Post-unification Germany followed through with similar measures, and even France today is moving ahead with plans to curtail the power of the unions.

The discussion around zero hour contracts isn't straight forward. The majority of people on such contracts are supportive of the flexibility they provided. The issue is those who want job security and guarantee of hours, which in my mind could be mitigated by focused training and in-work education. Increasing the rigidity of the labour code would of course have unintended consequences. The unions and those covered by the entrenched labour code have a lot of power. However a consequence of that is vastly highly unemployment, that the majority of new jobs in France have been temporary (around four times the rate of the UK or Germany), and that more people in France are working involuntary hours than in the UK or Germany.
 

Herb Alpert

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,033
Paris, France
Thatcher was an old witch that did a lot of harm to a lot of people.
May isn't comparable at all, the historical context is tremendously different...
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,459
Margaret Thatcher killed the economy anywhere north of London and basically forced thousands of families into poverty and they still haven't recovered.

Theresa May is a woman who is destryoing the NHS, destroying foreign relationships and taking the country headfirst into jumping off a cliff over the will of the people. She's a monster as well.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
People either have very short memories or simply weren't around pre-Thatcher to appreciate just how bad things had got. Despite a Labour government that was more left-leaning than today, the UK was a complete mess. The unions had become detached from reality resulting in unsustainable wage increases, sizable unemployment and runaway inflation.

The consequence of this was the UK under Callaghan having to be bailed out by the IMF. The UK had quite rightly become the sick-man of Europe and the entire economy came to a halt. The period was marked by more people leaving the country than entering it.

If an IMF bailout doesn't demonstrate to people just how bad things had descended, I suggest people read up about the Winter of Discontent. When dustmen went on such a prolonged strike (http://www.businessinsider.com/thatcher-and-the-winter-of-discontent-2013-4?IR=T) that parks, squares and roads had to be closed to enable rubbish to pile up. Even dead bodies began to pile up when the gravediggers stopped working.

There was even a long period where due to rationing of electricity, people worked three-day weeks and the BBC and ITV alternated who went off air early in the evening.

In summary, I think a lot of people on this forum would be deceiving themselves if they thought that pre-Thatcher UK was working.

That isn't to say that Thatcher was some untouchable messiah. The poll tax was fudged, and she failed to follow-up with certain policies such as house-building and re-education schemes.

May in contrast is simply incomparable to Thatcher; leaderless, clueless and bereft of ideas and policies.


Fucking winter of discontent?

How about a three+ decades of shitty malaise. The whole project, whether you wish to call it "Neo liberal" or the "largest transferral of public wealth into private hands", began by Thatcher has been a fucking disaster.
 

nick shaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
371
Except the problem wasn't one previous PM, it was successive Conservative and Labour PM's and governments that led to the country going off a cliff. Brexiteers and those not keen on the reforms under Thatcher have this equally deluded view that pre-EU/Thatcher was this land of happiness and honey, when that couldn't be further from the truth. There are certainly many flaws with today's society, but no sane individual would want to go back to the UK of the 70's.

But let me address the four points you raised. Selfishness is a human trait, not unique to the UK or capitalism, nor was it invented under Thatcher.

I don't see what could have been done to avoid the Falklands war when it was unprovoked and initiated by a hostile foreign power. It was also publicly very popular despite the loss of life.

The unions had to be broken because they had run the country into the ground; inflation was running at something like 25% before the arrival of Thatcher. Hospitals closing, rubbish and dead bodies piling up, three-day weeks, these events were the result of unions that had become detached from reality and making unreasonable demands. Post-unification Germany followed through with similar measures, and even France today is moving ahead with plans to curtail the power of the unions.

The discussion around zero hour contracts isn't straight forward. The majority of people on such contracts are supportive of the flexibility they provided. The issue is those who want job security and guarantee of hours, which in my mind could be mitigated by focused training and in-work education. Increasing the rigidity of the labour code would of course have unintended consequences. The unions and those covered by the entrenched labour code have a lot of power. However a consequence of that is vastly highly unemployment, that the majority of new jobs in France have been temporary (around four times the rate of the UK or Germany), and that more people in France are working involuntary hours than in the UK or Germany.
this guy is a fucking capitalist
 

MysteryM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,747
Thatcher took the uk from manufacturing to being service lead. It was never going to be a smooth transition for any country. History may see her as evil, but I'm not so sure she was.
 

nick shaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
371
Thatcher took the uk from manufacturing to being service lead. It was never going to be a smooth transition for any country. History may see her as evil, but I'm not so sure she was.
stop thinking about how she affected the economy and start thinking about how many peoples deaths were directly caused by her actions. ask an irishman what they think of thatcher.
 

pulsemyne

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,634
stop thinking about how she affected the economy and start thinking about how many peoples deaths were directly caused by her actions. ask an irishman what they think of thatcher.

Or a Welshman or a Scotsman. Her policies clobbered the hell out of us and caused a lot of suffering. People killed themselves because of the misery.
 

PipefishUK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
683
The discussion around zero hour contracts isn't straight forward. The majority of people on such contracts are supportive of the flexibility they provided.

Absolute bullshit, spoken by someone who has no idea what it's like to be on one.

Zero hours contracts are used by companies to avoid giving their workers rights. I've worked for companies where every single person who's hourly paid is put (whether they like it or not) on a zero hour contract - we're talking about thousands upon thousands of people in the same company - in positions that are stable, required, permanent jobs. The sole reason for this is so that they don't have to fire anyone or give anyone any redundancy or any rights at all bar basic holiday pay that is accrued. At any moment, on a whim, they can just say - oh, there's no hours for you anymore.

They use the threat of no more hours to control people and force them to do what they want. They're used to control, bully and intimidate people. I have never, ever, met anyone who wants to be on one.

This is very very common practice.
 
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Tango Scene

Banned
Dec 31, 2017
28
this guy is a fucking capitalist
Were you inebriated when you posted this?

Absolute bullshit, spoken by someone who has no idea what it's like to be on one. This is very very common practice.
I'm not going to dispute your personal evidence, nor will I dispute the highly dubious and corrosive practices of certain business which have abused the concept of ZHC's. I am however going to stand by research covering the entire labour market which provides a factual understanding of the composition of ZHC's. What we need is improved monitoring and consequences for dubious acts. The last thing this country needs is to replicate the entrenched labour code of France which has the perverse incentive of a far higher number in involuntary workers than the UK.
 
May 12, 2018
219
User Warned: NSFW/Inappropriate content.
Thatcher was an evil cunt so, yes, in a way Theresa May is her spiritual daughter.

Mod Edit: NSFW tweet removed.
 
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Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
Thatcher saw the transition from a manufacturing, industrial nation to one that focused on services. She probably/definitely overdid it but some sort of action was necessary. For example. coal-mining was becoming noncompetitive. I don't recall anyone ever saying we should go back to coal-mining. However, the way she went about it was callous, brutal and unnecessary. Whole regions had the bollocks ripped out of them with no thought for the people that lived there. The objective was sound, broadly (I'm not going to cape for all aspects of those policies) but the method was reprehensible.

Oh and the only similarity between the two women is that they are both callous Tory bitches. Thatcher had a strong sense of political identity and how to best implement those beliefs. May has no real political conviction. She latches on ton whatever she thinks polls say the public wants and then carries that out with dogged determination in pursuit of her own ambitions.

Thatcher, cunt as she was, wanted to make Britain a better country in her own shitheaded, nasty way. May just wanted to be PM and everything else is in service to that ambition.
 
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HenrySwanson

Member
Nov 23, 2017
238
My mum loves her my uncle hates her.

But living in London and seeing (and feeling) how the unions can cripple the capital with tube strikes now makes me think she wasn't all bad.
 

SwitchedOff

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,516
I wonder how Thatcher would have dealt with Trump? Would Trump have liked her? Would she have liked him?
 

JustSomeone

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
910
Just to provide a bit of perspective, there isn't many state funerals for dead leaders in history that looked like this:

The pure, unbridled hatred for Thatcher was palpable, and for what felt like 50% of the UK, her death was a cause for celebration and not grief. That says a lot about the person, if nothing else.
That's disgusting.
Celebrating someone's death says a lot bout the person who celebrates, not the one who died.
What did she do to earn such hatred anyway?
 
May 12, 2018
219
That's disgusting.
Celebrating someone's death says a lot bout the person who celebrates, not the one who died.
What did she do to earn such hatred anyway?

People celebrated the death of Hitler didn't they?

Is that strange for you to understand as well?

People will celebrate when Trump dies as well.

Sometimes a person's effect on a population is so visceral that a celebration of their death is a cathartic expression of relief.
 
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