Did Square use an Italian fan translation for TWEWY:Final Remix?

[eso76]

There's dozens ways to translate a sentence, especially in a language so complex and rich as italian.
If we account for localisation too, then the possibilities are pretty much unlimited.

Sentences turning out identical in more than a handful cases absolutely means they used the fan translation. Whether Square did, or the guys taking care of the localisation unbeknown to SE, that's anyone's guess.

 

[Deleted member 10737]

welcome to era Mewster

also the title for the ot should be changed to Involtino al tonno piccante

 

[Zolbrod]

BTW, some people asking about if this is copyright infringement. In short, yes.

This works with translations of public domain books. For example, I can publish "Hamlet" in any form I want, it's public domain. But I CAN'T publish Hamlet in Italian if it was translated by an academic in 2002. That is considered the translator's work too. I would have to make my own translation.

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That only works because Hamlet is public domain.
You can't publish your own translation of someone else's copyrighted product and legally claim it as your own.

 

[Mewster]

welcome to era Mewster

also the title for the ot should be changed to Involtino al tonno piccante

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"Did Square use an italian fan translation for Spicy Tuna Roll?"

 

[Doukou]

That only works because Hamlet is public domain.
You can't publish your own translation of someone else's copyrighted product and legally claim it as your own.

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I think his point was that Translations have copyright protection, the public domain part was just part of the example.

 

[Deleted member 47318]

Is that common practice in Europe? Because in Asia Sony do 80% of the translation for 3rd parties.

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I assume that is because Sony has a defacto monopoly on the console market there. Less to lose out on with regards to potential future ports to other platforms, from a publisher's perspective.

 

[Mobu]

Mama mia pizzeria

 

[Zolbrod]

I think his point was that Translations have copyright protection, the public domain part was just part of the example.

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That's a crucial difference though.
Translations do not have copyright protection if you're using someone else's copyrighted work.

http://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translation-what-you-need-to-know/

 

[Doukou]

That's a crucial difference though.
Translations do not have copyright protection if you're using someone else's copyrighted work.

http://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translation-what-you-need-to-know/

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You misread it.
"This is also where a translator may sign away, or fight for, their right to copyright their translation and to royalties."
"First, don't sign away your right to copyright or to being recognized for your translation. This would mean the publisher could exclude your name from the published editions of the book, as if it magically translated itself."
Which is what happened here, except the fact that the Translator never signed it.
The part you messed up on is
"automatically retains copyright as an original work." Copyrighted as an original work, your work can be copyrighted as a derivative work.

 

[Durante]

This (if true, and it seems like too much of a coincidence) is such a terrible way to handle fan interaction, even if it were legal.

 

[Zolbrod]

You misread it.
"This is also where a translator may sign away, or fight for, their right to copyright their translation and to royalties."
"First, don't sign away your right to copyright or to being recognized for your translation. This would mean the publisher could exclude your name from the published editions of the book, as if it magically translated itself."
Which is what happened here, except the fact that the Translator never signed it.

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You are glossing over the fact that this only pertains to situations where the translator has permission from the author, company, or individual that owns the copyright, which isn't the case with this fan translation.
Mewster doesn't have copyright over their translation because they never gained official permission from SQEX to make one.

The part you messed up on is
"automatically retains copyright as an original work." Copyrighted as an original work, your work can be copyrighted as a derivative work.

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Again, this only applies to a translation of a work in PUBLIC DOMAIN.
Truly no offense meant, but I don't think I'm the one misreading it here.

 

[Doukou]

You are glossing over the fact that this only pertains to situations where the translator has permission from the author, company, or individual that owns the copyright, which isn't the case with this fan translation.
Mewster doesn't have copyright over their translation because they never gained official permission from SQEX to make one.

You are glossing over the fact that this only pertains to situations where the translator has permission from the author, company, or individual that owns the copyright, which isn't the case with this fan translation.
Mewster doesn't have copyright over their translation because they never gained official permission from SQEX to make one.



Again, this only applies to a translation of a work in PUBLIC DOMAIN.
Truly no offense meant, but I don't think I'm the one misreading it here.

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Again, this only applies to a translation of a work in PUBLIC DOMAIN.
Truly no offense meant, but I don't think I'm the one misreading it here.

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Once again this all applies to having your translation copyright as an original work. Which is irrelevant to the topic. Here is whole context of your quote.
"Even though it is derivative, translations are eligible for copyright as an original work. Since a translation, especially literary translation, involves considerable creative effort, labour and skill on the part of the translator it can be registered as an original work.

However, it is crucial to have permission from the author, company, or individual that owns the copyright of the work you are translating. This usually comes in the form of a contract with a publisher, in which the duties of each party are laid out. This is also where a translator may sign away, or fight for, their right to copyright their translation and to royalties."
It's clearly talking about copyright as an original work, there is no way around it.

If you want to read about protection to derivative works read the Berne Convention which grants translations protection as original works, they are just not viewed as original works. So even if you believe your interpretation of the article, it's completely false according to the Berne Convention.
"Translations, adaptations, arrangements of music and other alterations of a literary or artistic work shall be protected as original works without prejudice to the copyright in the original work."


Edit: After reading a bit more about how countries follow the Berne convention, some countries like U.S. don't protect unauthorized translations. On the other hand Countires like U.K and France protect unauthorized copyrights, so as long as the game is sold there it's technically illegal. Sources for this:
http://www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html
UK
"Even if you are infringing someone else's copyright or even if you are unlawfully translating someone else's work, your work will itself qualify for protection as an original copyright."

http://limegreenip.hoganlovells.com/article/27/copyrights-copyright-protection-france
FR
"Other works, such as translations, adaptations or summaries, as well as databases (following specific requirements) are also protected by the IPC."

https://www.unc.edu/~unclng/copy-corner73.htm
U.S
"In 1976 UNESCO recommended that member states ensure through legislative action that translators be given copyright protection because of the importance of translations in culture and development, including translations of scientific and technical literature. It defined translations broadly whether the initial work or the translation is intended to be published. The United States has not generally followed this recommendation."

Edit2: Fixed Link, so let's just say were both right depending on the location :p

 

[Deleted member 33515]

under the Italian legislation, a translation IS protected. you can use a translation just as long as you have an agreement with the author. the author retains the rights forever, and can "license" them for each use, but you have to renoegotiate them for each new use. under UK legislation, for example, the translation can be sold in perpetuity. legislation varies a lot.

 

[.exe]

As someone who used to translate a lot and to/from various languages, whew. Holistically speaking, there are nearly infinite permutations a non-machine translation can take, especially if the translation is done without having the original writer there to clarify intent or if the translation is done on the basic of another translation (e.g. Japanese --> English --> Italian). Depending on the circumstances, the amount a translator needs to editorialize may grow even further if they are limited by factors such as the number or size of text windows, the duration of events, etc. Tim Rogers (from Kotaku) actually did a fantastic video series where he picked apart FF7's translation word by word and shows just how differently you can translate seemingly simple phrases.

If the similarity is truly as high as 90%, SE's translators definitely stole the fan work. Short phrases and expressions often have commonly used direct analogues but beyond that it's really primarily the interpretation of the translator.

 

[Playsage]

Hello=
Ciao, ehilà, Salve, bentrovato,ehi!... And so on

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Yeah, no. That's not how it works. Half of these need certain tones and english has has different phrases to convey them ("Hi"/"Hi there", "Yo", etc...)

You just can't translate "hello" to whatever you want

Anyway, the last example is pretty damning...

 

[Blackpuppy]

I wanted to give this example yesterday, but I didn't have a computer in front of me to do so.

Right let's take a look at Beowulf:

Swa fela fyrena feond mancynnes,
atol angengea, oft gefremede,
heardra hynða. Heorot eardode,
sincfage sel sweartum nihtum

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Now let's look at a few translations:

RD Fulk:

Thus, the enemy of humankind, repulsive loner, often committed a great many crimes, sharp humiliations; he occupied Heorot, the treasure-laden edifice, on gloomy nights.

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Aaron Hostetter

So many enormities the enemy of mankind,
loathsome lone-stalker, often committed,
a shaming more severe. He inhabited Heorot,
the dearly studded hall by the darkest night

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Frances Gummere

Such heaping of horrors the hater of men,
lonely roamer, wrought unceasing,
harassings heavy. O'er Heorot he lorded,
gold-bright hall, in gloomy nights.

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As you can see, there are similarities, but there are many differences. In translating Beowulf, modern translators have to juggle between creating something comprehensive, poetic and some even try to keep the poetic rhyme and rhythm. Each individual is going to come up with something different.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

I wanted to give this example yesterday, but I didn't have a computer in front of me to do so.

Right let's take a look at Beowulf:



Now let's look at a few translations:

RD Fulk:


Aaron Hostetter


Frances Gummere


As you can see, there are similarities, but there are many differences. In translating Beowulf, modern translators have to juggle between creating something comprehensive, poetic and some even try to keep the poetic rhyme and rhythm. Each individual is going to come up with something different.

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obviously there's only so many ways to translates them, and if you add more translators they would reach the exact same sentences, duuuh!

still can't believe people made this argument

 

[No Audible Release]

I've gotta laugh at the (thankfully small handful of) responses in this thread acting like this might all be some great coincidence, and this somehow doesn't prove that the fan translation was used.

I teach a translation class, which also involves correcting assignments, so believe me when I say I've seen how many variations of a single bit of text people can come up with. If two students hand in their work and 10-20% of what they've written is identical, I will start suspecting they've either worked together or based their work on the same source (Google Translate or whatever). Even if two translations are "only" 50% identical, that would establish foul play beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I'm talking about 250-word articles here. The notion that two people could translate an entire game independently of each other and arrive at localisations that are ninety percent the same BY COINCIDENCE is beyond ludicrous. That's on the level of winning a one-in-a-million lottery every day for an entire year.

 

[Zolbrod]

Edit2: Fixed Link, so let's just say were both right depending on the location :p

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Works for me ;)

It does raise an interesting question though: If an Italian fan translates the US version of a Japanese game, which country's law is going to apply?

 

[Mewster]

Works for me ;)

It does raise an interesting question though: If an Italian fan translates the US version of a Japanese game, which country's law is going to apply?

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A lawyer brain just imploded.

 

[Mewster]

Here is something interesting and new.

This is content Switch-only (I think text regarding the Reaper giving Neku the special missions).
On the DS version, the text had to be manually wrapped

(that means that
I had to rewrite long
sentences so that they
could fill a baloon)

On the switch italian version I could see that not only most of my translation was taken, but the wrapping too.

While, for content that was not available on the DS, I don't think they knew about this, or had the means to see how it would have resulted.

(I would have written

Uhm...
OK... Grazie.

Aspetta...
Dov'è andato?

)

 

[Turrican3]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/322531838 here are the credits.

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Hmm cannot find them (but hey it's a 5 hours video or something like that), could you please suggest a - rough - timestamp?

 

[Mewster]

Hmm cannot find them (but hey it's a 5 hours video or something like that), could you please suggest a - raw - timestamp?

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Around 4:08:00

 

[Dany1899]

under the Italian legislation, a translation IS protected. you can use a translation just as long as you have an agreement with the author. the author retains the rights forever, and can "license" them for each use, but you have to renoegotiate them for each new use. under UK legislation, for example, the translation can be sold in perpetuity. legislation varies a lot.

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This is the reason for which this situation should be cared about, because of the fact that about translations Italian, French and other European legislations are different from US.
However I think that the best scenario would be that a journalist, with his connections, asks information about this to Nintendo or Square Enix local branch, I'm starting now to see some Italian websites publishing some articles, maybe the next step is near.

 

[texhnolyze]

As someone who regularly use Fiverr to translate documents, this thread is hilarious.

"Things would be hard to be expressed in 20 different ways."

Lol.

 

[Turrican3]

Mewster

Thanks!
It was meant to be "rough" by the way, not "raw" XD

Sooo... I take this is a Nintendo (of Europe?) thing, not Square if I'm reading the credits right.

 

[Efejota]

To be honest, sometimes I would prefer if they would do that, provided that they talk it openly with the people involved, instead of bringing them in English only or paying someone to use Google Translator or worse, like in Shantae HGH.

This would also mean a release of Mother 3 in the west, finally, even if they decided to not use any of the translations besides the english one. (Which would be a shame, since I love the work and flow in the spanish one).

In the spanish scene there was this other case with Fragile Dreams, where Rising Star Games sent the texts to the fans and they translated everything, very professionally, but then refused to contact them to implement them in the game, from what I remember. In the end, the translators released a Riivolution patch very near to the release of the game, so that only people with the original disc would be able to enjoy it.
I was always very fond of booting up the game to this music, actually:


Of course, the best scenario will always be getting actual paid professionals. They deserve the money and translations can get VERY creative with several ways to say the same things instead of going literal. Nintendo is an expert on that.

 

[Mewster]

To be honest, sometimes I would prefer if they would do that, provided that they talk it openly with the people involved, instead of bringing them in English only or paying someone to use Google Translator or worse, like in Shantae HGH.

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What happened with Shantae?

 

[Robin64]

Amusing that when it came to original script in the new episode, they didn't follow the same wrapping rules as the rest of the translation. And also very telling.

 

[Deleted member 10737]

why hasn't any website reached out to SE yet about this?

 

[Robin64]

why hasn't any website reached out to SE yet about this?

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Personally I've only seen one (English) one cover it, and listed it as rumour. (It's clearly not a rumour)

 

[Jason Frost]

Mama mia pizzeria

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Oh, I see you speak Italian?

Ravioli macaroni spaghetti.

 

[Efejota]

What happened with Shantae?

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I honestly don't know, because the third game was fine, besides some people talking to her as a man.
My theory is that they sent the texts to someone to translate to all the languages at once, since I read similar complaints from other countries.


The very start of the game in Spanish is horrible. To give an example, here they translate "fell asleep" as "feeling sleepy".
https://twitter.com/FJLink/status/811525057142865920

From what I played, the whole thing is like that and I was actually trying actively to find sentences that meant what they were supposed to.
Whenever I decide to play it I'll have to change the language of the system since they didn't implement a language toggle ingame either.

Edit: Looking online for a bit I have seen some other examples like "no need to get all competitive" translated as "no need to obtain all the competitives", and so on.
Looking up "shantae trad" or "shantae traducción" on twitter should turn up many, many complaints in from Spain and France.

But wayforward never responded or fixed it, even if they updated the game many times because of the kickstarter content and the rereleases.

 

[Clown_im_OP]

In the end, doesn't this boil down to some freelance translator(s) being lazy and using the fan translation, and the Italian QA tester(s) (outsourced or not) not being aware that there is one? I don't even think SE double check the translations as soon as they're out of QA, no?
But it sure is a bad look for them.

 

[Squid Bunny]

That only works because Hamlet is public domain.
You can't publish your own translation of someone else's copyrighted product and legally claim it as your own.

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What I mean is: Squeenix can't claim the translation as its own just because it was done without authorization.

 

[stan423321]

Here is something interesting and new.

This is content Switch-only (I think text regarding the Reaper giving Neku the special missions).
On the DS version, the text had to be manually wrapped

(that means that
I had to rewrite long
sentences so that they
could fill a baloon)

On the switch italian version I could see that not only most of my translation was taken, but the wrapping too.

While, for content that was not available on the DS, I don't think they knew about this, or had the means to see how it would have resulted.

(I would have written

Uhm...
OK... Grazie.

Aspetta...
Dov'è andato?

)

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This would be an interesting discrepancy even on its own... thanks for sharing.

 

[Zolbrod]

What I mean is: Squeenix can't claim the translation as its own just because it was done without authorization.

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Even if they could, it would be reprehensible, I think we can all agree on that.
It looks like this wasn't SQEX's doing though.

 

[Regulus Tera]

In the end, doesn't this boil down to some freelance translator(s) being lazy and using the fan translation, and the Spanish QA tester(s) (outsourced or not) not being aware that there is one? I don't even think SE double check the translations as soon as they're out of QA, no?
But it sure is a bad look for them.

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Spanish?

 

[skillzilla81]

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This is my favorite string of posts in any thread ever.

lmao

 

[D65]

Filip Miucin finally found a new job!

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Is this the name of the IGN guy? Lol

 

[Clown_im_OP]

Spanish?

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Brain fart, sorry. Italian of course.

 

[Runner]

Out of curiosity, what makes the "Involtino al tonno piccante" thing so terrible?

 

[sackboy97]

Out of curiosity, what makes the "Involtino al tonno piccante" thing so terrible?

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I think Mewster explained it in the last page, but basically it's the most literal translation you could make of "spicy tuna roll", and it implies a different kind of food.

 

[Blackpuppy]

Out of curiosity, what makes the "Involtino al tonno piccante" thing so terrible?

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It'd be like calling a croque monsieur a "Mister Bite" or an hors d'œuvre an "out of endeavor"

 

[Mewster]

Update: I could find a stream that show some secondary dialogs.

Example 1:
Original DS Eng:
I see you've
perked up your
ears at that.
You have marvelous
taste, sir.

DS fan translation Ita:
Vedo che ha
drizzato le sue
orecchie per quello.
Ha un gusto
meraviglioso, sir.

Switch official Ita:
Vedo che le si sono drizzate
le orecchie per quello.
Ha un gusto molto
spiccato, signore.

Example 2:
Original DS Eng:
Bend the trends to your
will and create a Shibuya
that's yours alone!

DS fan translation Ita:
Piega le mode al
tuo volere e crea una Shibuya
che sia soltanto tua!

Switch official Ita:
Piega la moda al tuo volere
e crea una Shibuya tutta tua!

Those are a bit more different from my translation, probably because they translated themselves or at least they picked up only the general meaning from mine.

 

[sackboy97]

Update: I could find a stream that show some secondary dialogs.

Those are a bit more different from my translation, probably because they translated themselves or at least they picked up only the general meaning from mine.

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They still sound extremely similar. Sure, some words are different, but the whole structure is exactly the same.
By the way, I'd expect an official translation to be translated from the original Japanese script, not from the English version. I don't know how common that is though; a while back I read that the Italian edition of some books by Dazai (who is a Japanese author) were translated from the English version instead of the original.

 

[Wolfapo]

By the way, I'd expect an official translation to be translated from the original Japanese script, not from the English version. I don't know how common that is though; a while back I read that the Italian edition of some books by Dazai (who is a Japanese author) were translated from the English version instead of the original.

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It really. Depends. It's easier to find English - Italian translators.
Also, as long as the translator is good and creative at writing, it does not really matter what the source is in the end.

 

[JangleLuke]

Mama mia pizzeria

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You know, we could really do without all these shitting drive-by posts that add nothing to the conversation and REALLY tick me off as an Italian speaker, at least be a little more creative, you have fucking Google Translate, for God's sake. (sorry, rant over).

But yeah, there's zero doubt that someone copied the translation Mewster worked on.
Now the question is if this fact this will gain any popularity in online circles and press (I kinda doubt it).

 

[Caz]

"But it's a fan transla-

So was the one that XSEED used for that Ys III remake on PSP. The difference is that they paid & licensed the use of that one. Square has no excuse not to have done the same.

 

[RROCKMAN]

So was it ever confirmed that Square knowingly did this, or was it a third party translation company?