Difficulty by Design - What’s the Difference between Sekiro and Crusader Kings?

[marrec]

Ben Pack decided to rile up the discourse on this again by tweeting the following:



Ben's a good guy, and I don't think he was disagreeing with the headline of the article. An easy mode certainly has not ever ruined a game.

However, I do agree with him that not every game has to be for every person. His tweet inspired a lot of the same kind of follow up you've likely seen in this past, conflating difficulty with accessibility and the old "Games are the only media that have difficulty barriers!"

I think everyone can agree that adding difficulty options isn't going to ruin your game... but why does that mean that every game needs to be as inclusively difficult as possible? Also, why is it that this discourse is only stirred at the release of the latest From game?

The main point of this thread is the ask the question, what is the difference between the difficulty in Sekiro and the difficulty in Crusader Kings 2? In my opinion, Paradox games are much more inaccessible than From games, yet you almost never see people gnashing their teeth because CK2 isn't for literally everyone. Is this because the control options are much more easily understood even if the mechanics and interactions are orders of magnitude more arcane?

 

[Potterson]

CK2 isn't hard or challenging. It's more inaccessible and it's super complex, as you've said yourself. That's the main difference.

 

[Kinthey]

I also like this response



Accessibility and difficulty have been way too much conflated

 

[DrArchon]

Accessibility and difficulty have been way too much conflated

Click to shrink...

I think there's definitely overlap between the two, but Ben's not wrong in that's there's still SO much work to be done with traditional means of accessibility.

There's still no standard for video game subtitles! How is that not a thing already?

 

[darkside]

Games are not the only form of media that have accessibility barriers. Not all books are for everyone, there are books that require specific technical expertise in order to understand what the book is about, there are books written in languages that you can't read and that will never be translated etc.

Ben got roasted for his opinion but I generally agree with him here - when it comes to difficulty. Not every single game has to be for everyone, developers should feel free to make the game that they want to make.

 

[marrec]

CK2 isn't hard or challenging. It's more inaccessible and it's super complex, as you've said yourself. That's the main difference.

Click to shrink...

So why then, if we are supposed to believe that difficulty and accessibility go hand in hand, do we not see endless articles about Paradox strategy games lamenting their difficulty? My fiancé would rather chew her own arm off before sitting through even 5 minutes of a Paradox tutorial, should they make some kind of change to the game in order to make her more able to play the game?

 

[Budi]

To the "every game doesn't have to be for everyone" comment, that is true but

"Games are for everyone" does not mean that every game needs to appeal to every person. We simply want to make it so those with disabilities can choose what to play based on their -interests-, not based on accessibility barriers.


The difference is that Crusader Kings to my knowledge doesn't require quick, complex and precise inputs. You can give commands while paused right? And the speed is also adjustable.

 

[Cooking]

Games are not the only form of media that have accessibility barriers. Not all books are for everyone, there are books that require specific technical expertise in order to understand what the book is about, there are books written in languages that you can't read and that will never be translated etc.

Ben got roasted for his opinion but I generally agree with him here - when it comes to difficulty. Not every single game has to be for everyone, developers should feel free to make the game that they want to make.

Click to shrink...

Yes - to me it boils down to developers having creative freedom. If Miyazaki wants to make a punishing game that's great - if you're not interested in that experience, don't play it.

Accessibility is another issue and games need to be better about that.

 

[Basileus777]

Paradox games aren't difficult unless you are trying to do some sort of challenge or play as a weaker country. They also come loaded with difficulty options and in-game cheats.

The whole flow of a Paradox game is that you get to pick your own gameplay goals and aim for as difficult of a target as you want,

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

Just put fucking God modes back in games already

 

[PucePikmin]

The FS backlash is more about the discussion/hype surrounding the games than the games themselves I think. For a while, there was a barrage of "From Software titles are what games SHOULD be like, all games should be hard and uncompromising!" opinions flying around, and I think we're starting to see some pushback on that.

 

[marrec]

Paradox games aren't difficult unless you are trying to do some sort of challenge or play as a weaker country. They also come loaded with difficulty options and in-game cheats.

Click to shrink...

It can be impossible for some players to be able to get through the reading needed to understand the different mechanical interactions and gameplay features. Even a neurotypical player may have a difficult time being able to play these games.

In my head, that's a difficulty barrier that's in the game by design.

Please understand, this is just one example of a style of game that is largely left behind in the discussion of difficulty as accessibility. The overall point is that games CAN be designed for a specific level of difficulty without that difficulty being defined as real-time mechanical interaction with the game.

"Difficulty" is a nebulous term.

 

[Budi]

It can be impossible for some players to be able to get through the reading needed to understand the different mechanical interactions and gameplay features. Even a neurotypical player may have a difficult time being able to play these games.

In my head, that's a difficulty barrier that's in the game by design.

Click to shrink...

If it feels impossible, then use the developer implemented cheats. If Sekiro had something similar, it would be more accessible.

 

[Books]

Just put fucking God modes back in games already

Click to shrink...

This is a good idea. A universal console command for for idclip.

 

[Basileus777]

It can be impossible for some players to be able to get through the reading needed to understand the different mechanical interactions and gameplay features. Even a neurotypical player may have a difficult time being able to play these games.

In my head, that's a difficulty barrier that's in the game by design.

Click to shrink...

It's not an intentional difficulty barrier. Paradox games just have poor UIs and most of the battle is learning how to navigate them.

 

[Budi]

This is a good idea. A universal console command for for idclip.

Click to shrink...

IDDQD, IDCLIP is for clipping mode.

 

[marrec]

If it feels impossible, then use the developer implemented cheats. If Sekiro had something similar, it would be more accessible.

Click to shrink...

Can you give me an example of the developer implemented cheats that make understanding Crusader Kings more accessible?

 

[Budi]

Can you give me an example of the developer implemented cheats that make understanding Crusader Kings more accessible?

Click to shrink...

Oh understanding, no. But I don't think with Sekiro the issue is with understanding either. "Understanding" Sekiro doesn't help people with disabilities. But the cheats in CK help people to "beat" the game, see the campaign to it's end.

 

[Zealuu]

They're not that different though, if you zoom out a bit (even if CK2 is by far the easiest out of Paradox' current grand strategy crop, not counting Stellaris). Both demand that you understand and then engage with its systems in a way that is at least close enough to optimal that you make progress.

The difference is of course the level of manual dexterity required by those systems, as well as the level and immediacy of feedback when you fail. The gradual decline of your dynasty and subsequent poisoning of your final child character by their ambitious aunt is likely just as inevitable as your grisly death at the hands of a boss you haven't figured out, but it looks very different in real time. This works both ways, because success is so loosely defined in games like CK2. There are no bosses, no screen-filling messages announcing your partial completion of the game. There's just whatever goal you set, and the developer-made achievement challenges that range from reasonable to bizarre.

A more important factor, though, is probably the zeitgeisty-ness of From games, the quiet paradigm shift they initiated, and how they now occupy a central space in much of contemporary games writing and thinking. There's this sense that to understand what video games have been doing since 2011, you must have played at least Dark Souls, ideally Soulsborne in its entirety. The Discourse (tm) presupposes having played them, so of course it's galling if you actually can't.

From games exist as cultural touchstones and universally recognizable reference points for game design. That's not really the case for grand strategy games, even if Paradox have been making strides towards making a traditionally obscure and impenetrable genre accessible for a wider audience. To me, that's the biggest difference.

 

[Pall Mall]

It's not an intentional difficulty barrier. Paradox games just have poor UIs and most of the battle is learning how to navigate them.

Click to shrink...

I don't know if I would say that Paradox games have poor UIs (not saying they're great either), I feel like the real difficulty is the amount of UIs and just understanding what's important and where that is in the menus.

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

Can you give me an example of the developer implemented cheats that make understanding Crusader Kings more accessible?

Click to shrink...

Crusader Kings' difficulty is on a different axis. Anyone can play a game of CK through to completion, even if they don't do "well" at it.

 

[marrec]

Oh understanding, no. But I don't think with Sekiro the issue is with understanding either.

Click to shrink...

It probably isn't, but that does not mean the accessibility between the two games is any different. We trust and understand Paradox when they make their next impossible to penetrate grand strategy game, but furrow our brows when From releases their next game without explicit difficulty options.

 

[Deleted member 21858]

Ben is right. Imm all for subtitles and color blind options, but not difficulty options in every game.

 

[Ryo]

Part of Sekiro's appeal is the challenge, most videogames feel like they are designed to be beaten effortlessly. There's plenty of good cakewalk games out there.

 

[Budi]

It probably isn't, but that does not mean the accessibility between the two games is any different. We trust and understand Paradox when they make their next impossible to penetrate grand strategy game, but furrow our brows when From releases their next game without explicit difficulty options.

Click to shrink...

Well if From Soft would offer cheats like Paradox does. Or pause and gamespeed options like Paradox does. Maybe there would be bit less brow furrowing?

 

[marrec]

Well if From Soft would offer cheats like Paradox does. Or pause and gamespeed sliders like Paradox does. Maybe there would be bit less brow furrowing?

Click to shrink...

The cheats in Paradox games don't make them more accessible, just more "completable". Which we've already established is different.

 

[Death Penalty]

There's no downside to difficulty modes and it would help lots of people out.

It's not hard to grasp.

 

[marrec]

There's no downside to difficulty modes and it would help lots of people out.

It's not hard to grasp.

Click to shrink...

I mean, the downside is the increased development time and resources obviously.

Yes, some developers simply don't have the resources necesary to dedicate toward tweaking difficulty options just right.

 

[Budi]

The cheats in Paradox games don't make them more accessible, just more "completable". Which we've already established is different.

Click to shrink...

As I already said, CK is much more accessible from the get-go than Sekiro is, because it doesn't require precise, quick and complex inputs. You can pause it and take your time. And of course the cheats make it more accessible, because then you can better tailor the game to meet your own capabilities. This is what many people would want with Sekiro too. Just like the assist mode in Celeste makes it more accessible.

 

[Death Penalty]

I mean, the downside is the increased development time and resources obviously.

Yes, some developers simply don't have the resources necesary to dedicate toward tweaking difficulty options just right.

Click to shrink...

Pretty flimsy, to be honest.

 

[Potterson]

So why then, if we are supposed to believe that difficulty and accessibility go hand in hand, do we not see endless articles about Paradox strategy games lamenting their difficulty? My fiancé would rather chew her own arm off before sitting through even 5 minutes of a Paradox tutorial, should they make some kind of change to the game in order to make her more able to play the game?

Click to shrink...

Well, because they are not difficult :D From games are and can - in theory - have an Easy Mode. Some people say it's stupid but in theory you can just tweak damage output of monsters, right? You can.

In grand strategy... What would you change? There's nothing you can make "easier", really. You just need time and patience.

 

[Basileus777]

The cheats in Paradox games don't make them more accessible, just more "completable". Which we've already established is different.

Click to shrink...

People don't play Paradox games to complete them. They're sandboxes where you chose your own goals and play until you are satisfied. They have a plethora of difficulty options, gameplay speed can be altered, it can be paused at any time, and there are no twitch responses or complex inputs required. Yeah, their games have complicated UIs that are difficult to wrap your head around, but that's not the sort of barrier people are discussing when it comes to accessibility issues.

You really need to pick a better example.

 

[Deleted member 29682]

I don't know if Paradox games are a helpful comparison, since their goals are very much user defined. If I wanted to progress in Sekiro to see everything there is to offer, there are specific challenges I must overcome. Something like Crusader Kings has everything open to play with right from the start. I don't have to conquer Europe as Ireland to earn the right to play as the Byzantines or France. They're sandboxes.

And as far as accessibility is concerned, it's pseudo turn-based so you can spend as much time as you like planning and getting used to the systems available to you. Reflexes and dexterity don't factor into it.

 

[DrArchon]

People don't play Paradox games to complete them. They're sandboxes where you chose your own goals and play until you are satisfied. They have a plethora of difficulty options, gameplay speed can be altered, it can be paused at any time, and there are no twitch responses or complex inputs required. Yeah, their games have complicated UIs that are difficult to wrap your head around, but that's not the sort of barrier people are discussing when it comes to accessibility issues.

Click to shrink...

There are more kinds of accessibility issues than just the ones that come up with From games.

Do Paradox games do anything for people with learning disabilities or reading comprehension issues?

 

[Skade]

The main difference is mechanical skill versus brain skill.

You only need a brain, one seing eye, be able to read and one working finger to play CK2. While Sekiro recquires reflexes, skill and multiples fingers with good hand-eye coordination.

About anyone can learn how to play CK2 after a certain point (and it's not that hard anyway). This isn't true for Sekiro.

 

[DrArchon]

Litterally anyone can learn how to play CK2 after a certain point

Click to shrink...

Again, implying that learning disabilities aren't a thing. There are plenty of kinds of cognitive disabilities that limit the ability to play a game just as much as physical ones, if not more so.

 

[impact]

Neither Paradox nor From should dumb their games down so that everyone and their parents can beat them. I actually like the comparison because I'm super familiar with From, yet I'm the dog in a science jacket with Crusader Kings 2.

That said I respect what Paradox is doing even if its way too complex and over my head. They definitely shouldn't have to make changes to their game for a dummy like myself.

 

[Deleted member 29682]

Do Paradox games do anything for people with learning disabilities or reading comprehension issues?

Click to shrink...

What would you recommend are suitable options to assist with these? If there's no official support there could possibly be mods available.

 

[Basileus777]

There are more kinds of accessibility issues than just the ones that come up with From games.

Do Paradox games do anything for people with learning disabilities or reading comprehension issues?

Click to shrink...

What kind of accessibility options are usually suggested for that? People are pretty explicit with what they want from Sekiro to make it more accessible, I have not seen any specific requests of Paradox. I think they should strive to meet them if possible though.

 

[Skade]

Again, implying that learning disabilities aren't a thing. There are plenty of kinds of cognitive disabilities that limit the ability to play a game just as much as physical ones, if not more so.

Click to shrink...

Yeah sure. But the same limitations would apply for Sekiro as well. There's still stuff to read (much less, yes, but still) and learning disabilities would probably mess with the timing mechanics and learning the boss patterns for instance.

 

[Enduin]

There's no reason most games shouldn't have fully customizable "cheat" options to allow for people tweak the games to their needs/desires. This isn't even just an issue for people with disabilities. These are games people paid for and maybe they just don't like the combat or just want to see the game through to the end and feel like they got something for their money, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to more or less skip over the content they're not interested in. Only reason I beat XBC2 is because I found out they implemented such difficulty and auto-battle features, not that I found the combat hard, it was super easy but it was super boring and tedious and these features allowed the AI to just do everything for me.

I don't think it's reasonable or necessary for Devs like FROM to spend time making explicitly less difficult modes if their aim is to make a really challenging and tough experience for the majority of players. True alternative difficulty modes do take time and resources to implement properly and not all devs have those options, but things like customizable Health, Posture, DMG output, etc cheats could easily be implemented and made available for those people who for one reason or another need or want them.

Stuff like Cheat Engine on PC is a really invaluable tool for players as many custom tables give players full control over just how much they want to tweak their experience rather than just provide infinite everything. Some may want/need Infinite Health/Posture in order to progress entirely or with certain encounters, while others may just need minor tweaks like Half Damage in order to enjoy or be able to play the game at all.

If the dev team isn't interested in or able to create explicitly designed difficulty modes they don't have to, just give players direct control over those values themselves and let them tweak them to whatever level suits them. That some people that are perfectly able but weak willed in the face of a tough encounter might resort to cheats is really a pathetic excuse for making a game potentially inaccessible to large number of people with disabilities.

 

[DrArchon]

What would you recommend are suitable options to assist with these? If there's no official support there could possibly be mods available.

Click to shrink...

Closest thing I can think of would be text-to-speech. I have to imagine mods would work for that though.

Maybe simplifying complex language and words, but that seems a lot more time intensive to do.

 

[marrec]

I just want to make sure we understand the implications here.

Both Paradox and From Software design their games with a specific difficulty ramp in mind. By design, their games are notorious for their inaccessibility. Yet because Paradox games require less physical dexterity than From Software games they get a pass, despite being more mentally challenging.

I think my point is that we cannot expect developers to change the design philosophy of their games if that philosophy includes a specific level of difficulty. Accessibility should be considered, however we have to stop conflating accessibility with difficulty.

Lastly, as for physical accessibility in From Soft games, consider:

https://kotaku.com/someones-playing-through-dark-souls-with-donkey-kongas-1692602550

Microsoft has released a controller that is designed specifically with inclusivity in mind. THAT is where we should be looking toward when we talk about accessibility in gaming, not some blind requirement that all games include some kind of easy difficulty option.

 

[Basileus777]

Closest thing I can think of would be text-to-speech. I have to imagine mods would work for that though.

Maybe simplifying complex language and words, but that seems a lot more time intensive to do.

Click to shrink...

That would only go so far as there really isn't that much raw text in Paradox games, and most of it is just flavor text. The difficulty comes from reading the UI and map and learning the game mechanics.

Better tutorials are something they definitely need to strive for. They've made some attempts, but rarely keep them up to date with the evolution of the game.

 

[astro]

Why being on PC is great with the ability to use things like trainers and Cheat Engine. :D

 

[Deleted member 29682]

Closest thing I can think of would be text-to-speech. I have to imagine mods would work for that though.

Maybe simplifying complex language and words, but that seems a lot more time intensive to do.

Click to shrink...

These would be good options to have, and I think the community at large would be supportive of them. Unfortunately there don't appear to be any mods for implementing text to speech. I'm not familiar with text-to-speech programs, but are there any that are capable of doing it dynamically?

Text replacement actually sounds very feasible, as far as Paradox modding goes. All event text is editable in the more recent Paradox games, but as you say this would be time consuming. It's possible there already exists a mod that does this but I don't know what I would search for.

 

[Anno]

I think Paradox has also just made steady progress since CK2 in making their games accessible. EU4 and HoI4 are both more acccessible than their predecessors, and Stellaris is super approachable, though maybe less so than at launch.

 

[collige]

I think bringing up color blindness is a really good example since in some cases, it's a integral part of the game experience. The Witness, for example, is my game of the gen but it's literally impossible to fully complete for someone that's colorblind or deaf. Making it more accessible would require a complete redo of a massive chunk of the game.

Games are not the only form of media that have accessibility barriers. Not all books are for everyone, there are books that require specific technical expertise in order to understand what the book is about, there are books written in languages that you can't read and that will never be translated etc.

Ben got roasted for his opinion but I generally agree with him here - when it comes to difficulty. Not every single game has to be for everyone, developers should feel free to make the game that they want to make.

Click to shrink...

Excellent point. I feel like people who say books don't have barriers probably haven't tried to read Blood Meridian.

 

[Nameless]

What's frustrating to From fans is when perfectly capable people approach these games with a defeatist attitude or claim not to have the time, when in reality they simply don't want to invest 'however long it takes' to learn the game, maybe even engage with one of the most helpful communities around, and improve. Instead they want its core design philosophies bent & twisted to placate them.

Someone brought up a really great point in another thread about how something as simple as shortcuts would lose a lot of their value and special quality if areas were a cake walk. Same with bonfire placement. I'll never forget the joy & relief I felt activating the Sen's Fortress checkpoint. There are 1000 little examples like that which aren't considered by those clamoring for an easy mode. From bosses, to the audio design & atmosphere, to the world building & lore, the difficulty feeds in to almost every aspect of these games in some way. The cohesion of their design is one of the main reasons we love them so much.

This isn't Far Cry or Assassin's Creed. Implementing an easy mode that replicates the Souls Experience as faithfully as possible is not as simple as adjusting a few sliders. Also where does it stop? Just as many people who find the combat too hard have difficulty navigating the often obtuse methods of progressing the stories and side quests, nevermind following the abstract narratives themselves. How about including a journal option, or allow people to enable Discovery Mode:

After all , who does it hurt?

 

[Basileus777]

I just want to make sure we understand the implications here.

Both Paradox and From Software design their games with a specific difficulty ramp in mind. By design, their games are notorious for their inaccessibility. Yet because Paradox games require less physical dexterity than From Software games they get a pass, despite being more mentally challenging.

Click to shrink...

Paradox doesn't deliberately design their games to be difficult or inaccessible though. They design them to be complex and the inaccessibility comes from their limitations with building tutorials and intuitive UIs.