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Digital Foundry Direct: PlayStation 5 Controller, UI, SSD News Reaction + Analysis

Burrman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,918
Dev kits can be anything...

Why r so many people so fixated about the dev kit design? U ain't a dev, u r never owning that. Ps dev kits & final hardware are way different...

And yes, that dev kit design is real which again, doesn't matter at all to any of us.
Relax. It’s not a big deal. I didn’t know it was a dev kit design. I though dev kits were usually just a simple box. That shit looks like those ridiculous internet fakes
 

Belmont

Member
Oct 27, 2017
235
Does anyone know from all the news that's come out whether the PS5 controller will retain the touchpad? I've been curious about that.
 

Chasing

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,414
I'm kinda curious to see (feel) what's up with the new rumble because honestly, after all this time with my switch, I still can't tell what's so different about it.

Then again I don't really play with detached joycons that much, so maybe that's why.
 

teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
Really happy they are going back to analogue triggers. I loved the all analogue buttons of the PS2. MGS2 used them to great effect.

I'm really excited at this PS5 news so far. Feels like it will retain a big gamer focus like the PS4. I was worried it would lurch towards GaaS / the original Xbox One plan too much.
 

KCsoLucky

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,181
I haven't noticed the feedback in the Switch being anything special from any of the games that I've played. That's kinda like saying the TouchPad has no relevant use. It's up to the developers to do it. I play with a Pro controller whenever I can but do handheld quite a bit also. I'm definitely going to check out that Smash footstep craziness. 50 hours and never noticed it. If they retain the same general shape for the DS5, I really hope they make Start/Options stick out more and get at least double the battery life. That would put it on top for me(above the Switch Pro).

Also, I can't wait to cleanse the term HD Rumble from my brain.
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,894
yeah that's why it isn't about the price, just a way to say "mid range" since he or she was talking about wattage.
He wasnt talking about anything other than the price, the original poster i quoted that is. And theres already a 300$ card thats low wattage with whats probably very close to ps5 performance. The 5700. Add another year to improve the manufacturing process, the architecture tweaks and the drastically lower prices Sony will be paying and its quite easy to see what nonsense the posts im replying to are.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,140
Can't wait to see and use this controller. Love cool functionality in a controller, as long as it retains the traditional controls. Love HD Rumble on the Joy Con (and especially the pro controller), and this seems to be taking the next step beyond that.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,089
He wasnt talking about anything other than the price, the original poster i quoted that is. And theres already a 300$ card thats low wattage with whats probably very close to ps5 performance. The 5700. Add another year to improve the manufacturing process, the architecture tweaks and the drastically lower prices Sony will be paying and its quite easy to see what nonsense the posts im replying to are.
Still looks to me like you could replace the mention of price with the name of a specific card and the sentence has the same meaning. But sure, discussing semantics is beyond the point. I don't disagree that it should perform in regular gaming very well compared to a mid tier GPU of today like the 5700 and the 5700XT too.
 
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c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,302
Currently, I cannot see anything that has me hyped from PS5. The hardware is going to be better, of course, than PS4, but I don't see anything I did not expect. SSD, BC, RT was expected and anything else would have been a major disappointment.
Regarding controllers: I've been through too many generations to get hyped for new conroller features as many of them sounded cool at reveal and afterwards were barely used and the hinted inclusion of a microphone has me more worried than hyped after the facebookalexa-fiasco.
I don't know, I just don't feel it currently. I hope there is some innovation in the hardware somewhere that will get me more on-board but it all sounds more like an upgrade like buying new computer parts. Perhaps that's just what it is because we are now in x86-world with consoles.
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,894
Still looks to me like you could replace the mention of price with the name of a specific card and the sentence has the same meaning. But sure, discussing semantics is beyond the point. I don't disagree that it should perform in regular gaming very well compared to a mid tier GPU of today like the 5700 and the 5700XT too.
Its not quite semantics. The original post was a pc master race type post bragging that consoles can only dream of 2070/super performance since those were both 600$ GPUs in real world prices. And nvidias rip off pricing is irrelevant
 

Thorrgal

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,036
Taking an existing thing and improving/modifying it is still ultimately copying.

Also, Nintendo did rumble first of we’re going to play that game.
No is not lol

Taking a thing and improving it, is improving it.

Taking a thing and copying it, is copying it.

There's a reason why they have different definitions on the dictionary.

No need impoverish people's vocabulary even further.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,273
Currently, I cannot see anything that has me hyped from PS5. The hardware is going to be better, of course, than PS4, but I don't see anything I did not expect. SSD, BC, RT was expected and anything else would have been a major disappointment.
Regarding controllers: I've been through too many generations to get hyped for new conroller features as many of them sounded cool at reveal and afterwards were barely used and the hinted inclusion of a microphone has me more worried than hyped after the facebookalexa-fiasco.
I don't know, I just don't feel it currently. I hope there is some innovation in the hardware somewhere that will get me more on-board but it all sounds more like an upgrade like buying new computer parts. Perhaps that's just what it is because we are now in x86-world with consoles.
Maybe the Switch is more your thing then? Microsoft and Sony are not doing anything exotic or overly gimmicky next gen. Games is what matters though.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,529
Why would AMD's RT solution be as impressive as Nvidia's? The former has shown an inability to compete with the latter even on equal footing, and consoles introduce serious constraints.
Probably not as impressive in theory, however in a console environment dedicated RT hardware can really shine because devs will put a lot more effort into optimization.
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,302
Maybe the Switch is more your thing then? Microsoft and Sony are not doing anything exotic or overly gimmicky next gen. Games is what matters though.
No, I really like shiny graphics, could not care less about portability and hate the way you have to control the switch. But that's another story and off-topic.
I am just not hyped because there is nothing new in PS5. Everything they put in is available already right now. Not for the same price, of course not. But from a tech point of view. SSD? Check (and please, don't come at me with their secret sauce SSD - it's still an SSD in the end with the "SSD effect"). RT? This most likely won't match what NV already offers. Still nice to have, though. And after that more of the same.
Yes, games matter in the end but if we go that route, why even have new hardware? Truth is that people want tech to advance because shinier graphics and this is achieved by more power. It just is the lack of something innovative that makes it feel next-gen besides shinier graphics. And lower load times is not what I call innovative, to be honest. That's what you automatically get with newer/better hardware.
Perhaps there will be some secret sauce in it that will get my hyped, I hope so at least. Mind: I look forward to upgrades and will most likely buy a PS5 but just for QOL improvements in the beginning most likely (playing through my backlog).
 

DrDeckard

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Probably not as impressive in theory, however in a console environment dedicated RT hardware can really shine because devs will put a lot more effort into optimization.
I can deffo see some interesting console implementation. Where they dedicate the RT on one or two really distinct features. But outside of that PC will absolutely wipe the floor with what these consoles will offer.

Nvidia will be on second gen RTX by the time these consoles launch.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,529
No, I really like shiny graphics, could not care less about portability and hate the way you have to control the switch. But that's another story and off-topic.
I am just not hyped because there is nothing new in PS5. Everything they put in is available already right now. Not for the same price, of course not. But from a tech point of view. SSD? Check (and please, don't come at me with their secret sauce SSD - it's still an SSD in the end with the "SSD effect"). RT? This most likely won't match what NV already offers. Still nice to have, though. And after that more of the same.
Yes, games matter in the end but if we go that route, why even have new hardware? Truth is that people want tech to advance because shinier graphics and this is achieved by more power. It just is the lack of something innovative that makes it feel next-gen besides shinier graphics. And lower load times is not what I call innovative, to be honest. That's what you automatically get with newer/better hardware.
Perhaps there will be some secret sauce in it that will get my hyped, I hope so at least. Mind: I look forward to upgrades and will most likely buy a PS5 but just for QOL improvements in the beginning most likely (playing through my backlog).
Did any console ever have something that wasn’t possible on PCs?
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,493
Currently, I cannot see anything that has me hyped from PS5. The hardware is going to be better, of course, than PS4, but I don't see anything I did not expect. SSD, BC, RT was expected and anything else would have been a major disappointment.
Regarding controllers: I've been through too many generations to get hyped for new conroller features as many of them sounded cool at reveal and afterwards were barely used and the hinted inclusion of a microphone has me more worried than hyped after the facebookalexa-fiasco.
I don't know, I just don't feel it currently. I hope there is some innovation in the hardware somewhere that will get me more on-board but it all sounds more like an upgrade like buying new computer parts. Perhaps that's just what it is because we are now in x86-world with consoles.
I don't know in what world did you live where SSD, BC and HW RT was expected for you in PS5
Like one year ago people would laugh at your face in the next gen thread if you even mention a possibility of SSD and RT in next gen consoles
 

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,396
Norway but living in France
Currently, I cannot see anything that has me hyped from PS5. The hardware is going to be better, of course, than PS4, but I don't see anything I did not expect. SSD, BC, RT was expected
Prior to April practically no-one expected hardware-accelerated RT in the next-gen consoles, it seemed very unrealistic.
SSD sure but not the doubling down on beyond PCIe3 speeds.
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,302
Did any console ever have something that wasn’t possible on PCs?
Sure. 360 had features in the GPU that was not present at the time on PC. Cell went a route that was only later achieved on PC via GPGPU with its FPUs. 16 Bit era was in certain ways better than PC when it came to bitplane manipulating or mode-7.
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,302
I don't know in what world did you live where SSD, BC and HW RT was expected for you in PS5
Like one year ago people would laugh at your face in the next gen thread if you even mention a possibility of SSD and RT in next gen consoles
And there would have been people not laughing. RT is nothing new at all and ever since NV released their RT tech in their GPU line their was a discussion about how AMD will respond to that. Mind that I don't expect anything ground breaking for RT in PS5 (or Scarlett). An SSD was always something people wanted in a next-gen console. It might be more of a hope for many and now is confirmed but in the end, this is just a thing that comes down to price rather than a huge innovation.SSDs are a thing on PC since more than 8 years now. That they now find a way in consoles is definitely great but nothing to get my "hyped".
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,615
New Jersey
Ok, this is the second time I have seen DF guys feeling down on Nex Gen console specs. During First Reveal, they said that RT and fastest SSD is just buzzword used by Cerny. Now they are speculating that RT hardware won't be as impressive as Nvidia's current offering.

I am here just hoping they are wrong on this matter.

Also, I will correct them here. There was no confusion on RT when even the interviewer tweeted that RT was talked in regards to visual feature not just audio
I'm sorry, i just saw this post and i had to respond first thing.

What i want to say is that your misunderstanding the situation. They are not "feeling down" on next gen's hardware specs, they are just being realistic.

Even if the consoles have RTX hardware to make it easier for devs to use it, it will still be inferior to a PC bruteforcing the solution with far more power. There are PCs with far more power than either of the next gen consoles out right now and we have a year left to go.

The difference is of course, and John says it in the video, standardized hardware. With devs actually taking advantage of this stuff en mass no longer constrained by current gen and knowing exactly what is in each box, it becomes less about brute forcing power and more about what devs can do with a far greater baseline. It''ll take smart optimization work to get the best out of the hardware, but that goes for every console generation.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,529
Sure. 360 had features in the GPU that was not present at the time on PC. Cell went a route that was only later achieved on PC via GPGPU with its FPUs. 16 Bit era was in certain ways better than PC when it came to bitplane manipulating or mode-7.
How long were those features exclusive to 360? I can’t imagine it took long for PCs to catch up.

and it’s the same with ssds. According to Sony marketing so take it with a pinch of salt, the ps5 ssd is custum one of a kind. Can’t imagine it will be so for very long though.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,615
New Jersey
How long were those features exclusive to 360? I can’t imagine it took long for PCs to catch up.

and it’s the same with ssds. According to Sony marketing so take it with a pinch of salt, the ps5 ssd is custum one of a kind. Can’t imagine it will be so for very long though.
about a year, maybe a little less.. but it was meaningless. 360 came out in late 2005 and crysis came out less than 2 years later and blew anything possible on last gen consoles way. PS3 had the most advanced CPU in history and yet all it did was skyrocket the price and make devs want to throw themselves off a building...it did make some pretty exclusives, but you COULD have made far more impressive games on PC had there been more Crysis like examples, using high end PC parts in a vacuum...

Which makes me confused about the sentiment C0de is expressing. There's literally no reason for the parts of consoles in a vacuum to matter. What should matter is how they impact game design and what developers can do focusing on them specifically as a new baseline. That's how literally every generation works.
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,302
How long were those features exclusive to 360? I can’t imagine it took long for PCs to catch up.

and it’s the same with ssds. According to Sony marketing so take it with a pinch of salt, the ps5 ssd is custum one of a kind. Can’t imagine it will be so for very long though.
Of course they catch up in the end. Consoles also are amazing when it comes to "bang for buck", there is no point in arguing that. But the tech itself is just not something I can get hyped right now because there is really nothing new.
I don't care how custom the SSD is in PS5 because in the end all that matters is what its effect is and that will be less load times which will be the thing people will notice the most. How much that actually makes a difference we will see thanks to BC - worst offenders I know of are TW3, GTA5, FFXV and AC:origins (perhaps Oddyssee, too, but I guess so). If it is so much better than what PC offers right now, it will load much faster but I doubt it. People will say that the benefits will only be for games that are specifically built for PS5 but if the tech itself is so much better, than the benefits should make a big difference for PS4 titles, too.
Anyway, this is again not new tech at all. SSDs in general were a big leap because the improvements could literally be felt, it was a jump in orders of magnitude. But as I said, SSDs are a thing now for more than 8 years and most people probably have already experienced what it feels like having an SSD in a computing device.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,001
Of course they catch up in the end. Consoles also are amazing when it comes to "bang for buck", there is no point in arguing that. But the tech itself is just not something I can get hyped right now because there is really nothing new.
I don't care how custom the SSD is in PS5 because in the end all that matters is what its effect is and that will be less load times which will be the thing people will notice the most. How much that actually makes a difference we will see thanks to BC - worst offenders I know of are TW3, GTA5, FFXV and AC:origins (perhaps Oddyssee, too, but I guess so). If it is so much better than what PC offers right now, it will load much faster but I doubt it. People will say that the benefits will only be for games that are specifically built for PS5 but if the tech itself is so much better, than the benefits should make a big difference for PS4 titles, too.
Anyway, this is again not new tech at all. SSDs in general were a big leap because the improvements could literally be felt, it was a jump in orders of magnitude. But as I said, SSDs are a thing now for more than 8 years and most people probably have already experienced what it feels like having an SSD in a computing device.
I’m less excited for the SSD because of load times as because of what it might mean to have a large amount of data closer to the cpu:gpu, with predictable performance and latency. For what that can mean at runtime in games rather than load time. And that’s a much newer thing - nobody, as far as I know, has been exploiting that in a fundamental way inside games.

To be able to pull a hundred - or maybe hundreds? - of megs of data from a huge data store per frame is... an interesting prospect. I think you could see exciting remixes of data vs compute ratios in both cpu and graphics processing techniques.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,722
Barcelona Spain
I’m less excited for the SSD because of load times as because of what it might mean to have a large amount of data closer to the cpu:gpu, with predictable performance and latency. For what that can mean at runtime in games rather than load time. And that’s a much newer thing - nobody, as far as I know, has been exploiting that in a fundamental way inside games.

To be able to pull a hundred - or maybe hundreds? - of megs of data from a huge data store per frame is... an interesting prospect. I think you could see exciting remixes of data vs compute ratios in both cpu and graphics processing techniques.
Yes this is the most exciting part from a technological point of view. But the quality of life of better boot time and loading time is interesing as a gamer. I replay HZD and loading time are annoying after fast travel.

Of course they catch up in the end. Consoles also are amazing when it comes to "bang for buck", there is no point in arguing that. But the tech itself is just not something I can get hyped right now because there is really nothing new.
I don't care how custom the SSD is in PS5 because in the end all that matters is what its effect is and that will be less load times which will be the thing people will notice the most. How much that actually makes a difference we will see thanks to BC - worst offenders I know of are TW3, GTA5, FFXV and AC:origins (perhaps Oddyssee, too, but I guess so). If it is so much better than what PC offers right now, it will load much faster but I doubt it. People will say that the benefits will only be for games that are specifically built for PS5 but if the tech itself is so much better, than the benefits should make a big difference for PS4 titles, too.
Anyway, this is again not new tech at all. SSDs in general were a big leap because the improvements could literally be felt, it was a jump in orders of magnitude. But as I said, SSDs are a thing now for more than 8 years and most people probably have already experienced what it feels like having an SSD in a computing device.
It will help loading time for all title, think about SSD on PC for non optimized title. My friend told me comparable to SSD with RAMDISK on PC for non optimized title. On streaming side it wil change many things for Scarlett and PS5. If the speed of PS5 SSD is 5 GB or more this will maybe be so not useful or more probably I am not imaginative enough for streaming for most games but it will help optimized title to have very fast loading time.
 
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Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,369
Sure. 360 had features in the GPU that was not present at the time on PC. Cell went a route that was only later achieved on PC via GPGPU with its FPUs. 16 Bit era was in certain ways better than PC when it came to bitplane manipulating or mode-7.
AFAIK in 2013 Resogun on PS4 was doing something never seen before in a game thanks to heavy use of asynchronous GPU compute. And it could be seen immediately on screen when playing the game.

Back then even DF were impressed by it and compared it to the insane bandwidth only available on PS2 that could allow insane stuff on screen.

The unifed shader feature of XB360 was actually never displayed in a unique way in any game. It was more useful for the developers. It was a feature to make development of games easier. We could say the same thing for PS3 Cell IMO. Have we ever seen a game displaying the PS3 cell 'power' in the first years, even in the last years ? Well it certainly made the development much harder for the devs :P
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,302
I’m less excited for the SSD because of load times as because of what it might mean to have a large amount of data closer to the cpu:gpu, with predictable performance and latency. For what that can mean at runtime in games rather than load time. And that’s a much newer thing - nobody, as far as I know, has been exploiting that in a fundamental way inside games.

To be able to pull a hundred - or maybe hundreds? - of megs of data from a huge data store per frame is... an interesting prospect. I think you could see exciting remixes of data vs compute ratios in both cpu and graphics processing techniques.
We've already seen these shifts in the data center for specific applications but yes, that is new for games, for sure. To which degree we will see that I am curious though. Like past gens, the most successful games on PS5 will be third party games which are also released on PC and I don't know yet whether devs will adapt the game design with the speed in mind and if they expect PC customers to go the SSD route.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,311
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Ok, this is the second time I have seen DF guys feeling down on Nex Gen console specs. During First Reveal, they said that RT and fastest SSD is just buzzword used by Cerny. Now they are speculating that RT hardware won't be as impressive as Nvidia's current offering.

I am here just hoping they are wrong on this matter.

Also, I will correct them here. There was no confusion on RT when even the interviewer tweeted that RT was talked in regards to visual feature not just audio
we mentioned the confusion stemming from the article because there is a difference between hw accelerated RT in some fashion and RT just running on Standard Compute. We were talking about the article, not some tweets afterward.
Also we are not 'down' on it at all and talk excited about a number of features (CPU) - we just tend toward sobering conjecture rather than the hyperbolic.
I’m less excited for the SSD because of load times as because of what it might mean to have a large amount of data closer to the cpu:gpu, with predictable performance and latency. For what that can mean at runtime in games rather than load time. And that’s a much newer thing - nobody, as far as I know, has been exploiting that in a fundamental way inside games.

To be able to pull a hundred - or maybe hundreds? - of megs of data from a huge data store per frame is... an interesting prospect. I think you could see exciting remixes of data vs compute ratios in both cpu and graphics processing techniques.
One game where you can see ssd leveraged in that way is Star citizen, where they designed the whole steaming of Planet and space with ssd i/o in mind. The game just is stutter City on a platter drive.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,001
We've already seen these shifts in the data center for specific applications but yes, that is new for games, for sure. To which degree we will see that I am curious though. Like past gens, the most successful games on PS5 will be third party games which are also released on PC and I don't know yet whether devs will adapt the game design with the speed in mind and if they expect PC customers to go the SSD route.
Yeah, it's hard to know, but I think if it's going to happen, it'll happen because two new consoles are raising that tide.

IF very compelling applications of that IO bandwidth are found by devs who can work exclusively on the new systems, it'll put pressure on third parties to keep up. So we will see. I'd be curious to see how many 'gaming' PCs have at least some kind of SSD in them now - it feels like it's been a must-have upgrade for some years now.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,001
One game where you can see ssd leveraged in that way is Star citizen, where they designed the whole steaming of Planet and space with ssd i/o in mind. The game just is stutter City on a platter drive.
Thanks! That's cool - I shouldn't say 'nobody' then, in terms of who is exploiting that kind of bandwidth. But I'd like to see that drive out to everyone, to all developers, which will push the collaboration and competition on new techniques, and the sophistication of the use-cases up. I feel like terrain streaming - for example - nice as that is, is only scratching the surface of what might ultimately possible. Imagine you could profile game scenes and partially compute 'typical' lighting scenarios in dynamic scenes, and pull that data in on demand to accelerate dynamic lighting simulation with graceful degradation if caches weren't available. Things like that, for example. Maybe I'm talking out of my arse, but I feel like there's a lot that devs could chew on here, when you have tens of megs per frame of fresh/just-in-time data available.

Nearer term though...yeah... just pumping up the volume of asset data per cubic meter in the game world, per frame, per pixel or whatever... there's a big jump over what devs could typically do before. I think with stuff like photogrammetry etc, that will be the nearer term win.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,369
we mentioned the confusion stemming from the article because there is a difference between hw accelerated RT in some fashion and RT just running on Standard Compute. We were talking about the article, not some tweets afterward.
Also we are not 'down' on it at all and talk excited about a number of features (CPU) - we just tend toward sobering conjecture rather than the hyperbolic.

One game where you can see ssd leveraged in that way is Star citizen, where they designed the whole steaming of Planet and space with ssd i/o in mind. The game just is stutter City on a platter drive.
There is no confusion in the article, at all. Just re-read properly the Wired article. AFAIK you were the only one on earth that were confused by that article.