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Digital Foundry Direct: PlayStation 5 Controller, UI, SSD News Reaction + Analysis

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,312
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
There is no confusion in the article, at all. Just re-read properly the Wired article. AFAIK you were the only one on earth that were confused by that article.
Only one on earth confused by that article? Yeah I do not think so.
"The GPU, a custom variant of Radeon’s Navi family, will support ray tracing." Is all it said.
This statement about "support" by the way is right around after the time Crytek put out a compute ray tracing demo running on Vega HW, Nvidia made DXR and VVKRT work on not RT-HW chips (pascal), and AMD said it will not be supporting RT at all until all of its GPU family does.
"Support" means literally anything. PS3 supports 1080p output for example.
Saying we have hardware accelerated ray tracing? Yeah that is a substantial sentence and very important.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Barcelona Spain
Thanks! That's cool - I shouldn't say 'nobody' then, in terms of who is exploiting that kind of bandwidth. But I'd like to see that drive out to everyone, to all developers, which will push the collaboration and competition on new techniques, and the sophistication of the use-cases up. I feel like terrain streaming - for example - nice as that is, is only scratching the surface of what might ultimately possible. Imagine you could profile game scenes and partially compute 'typical' lighting scenarios in dynamic scenes, and pull that data in on demand to accelerate dynamic lighting simulation with graceful degradation if caches weren't available. Things like that, for example. Maybe I'm talking out of my arse, but I feel like there's a lot that devs could chew on here, when you have tens of megs per frame of fresh/just-in-time data available.

Nearer term though...yeah... just pumping up the volume of asset data per cubic meter in the game world, per frame, per pixel or whatever... there's a big jump over what devs could typically do before. I think with stuff like photogrammetry etc, that will be the nearer term win.
Clever for example it would help a game like HZD a lot giving how the light system is done and probably the same for Forza Horizon.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,375
Only one on earth confused by that article? Yeah I do not think so.
"The GPU, a custom variant of Radeon’s Navi family, will support ray tracing." Is all it said.
This statement about "support" by the way is right around after the time Crytek put out a compute ray tracing demo running on Vega HW, Nvidia made DXR and VVKRT work on not RT-HW chips (pascal), and AMD said it will not be supporting RT at all until all of its GPU family does.
"Support" means literally anything. PS3 supports 1080p output for example.
Saying we have hardware accelerated ray tracing? Yeah that is a substantial sentence and very important.
I am talking about the use of RT. In the tweet the journalist did reiterate that were mainly talking about graphics, not audio. You were the only one implying RT would be applied on audio only (or mainly).
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,312
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
I am talking about the use of RT. In the tweet the journalist did reiterate that were mainly talking about graphics, not audio. You were the only one implying RT would be applied on audio only (or mainly).
In the original DF video about it, I pointed out how the word "support" was too vague and how its juxtaposition in the article (which by the way was the only information we had) next to direct quotes from Cerny about audio RT was odd.

We did our initial "coverage" based on the article, day of. And the tweets from the author after that video when live did not clarify what RT support meant at all.
xbox 360 gpu was better than anything on PC at its release. Dreamcast was also better than anything available on PC. PS2 was better in some ways
As a primarily PC player back in 2004-2005 I was incredibly hyped about the 360 after they unveiled it. That GPU was the future, before we even knew what it was.
 
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gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,026
Clever for example it would help a game like HZD a lot giving how the light system is done and probably the same for Forza Horizon-
Yeah, I've no idea - I'm stream-of-thought-ing there. It might not be feasible at all. But I think there'll be a good bit of rope there for devs to use and to research, in terms of a new relationship between compute and just-in-time delivery of precomputed/cached data, when you pass into tens of MBs per frame with (hopefully) workable latency. It'll be interesting to see.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Barcelona Spain
In the original DF video about it, I pointed out how the word "support" was too vague and how its juxtaposition in the article (which by the way was the only information we had) next to direct quotes from Cerny about audio RT was odd.

We did our initial "coverage" based on the article, day of. And the tweets from the author after that video when live did not clarify what RT support meant at all.
+1 you have been rigorous, you can't told more than what the messenger told you.

And Mark Cerny himself understood he needs to clarify that raytracing is hardware accelerated in the second Wired article.
 

Sams88

Member
Oct 9, 2019
160
It’s always an interesting watch. But this time around it seems Digital Foundry know practically nothing about the specifics of the PS5. I don’t even think we have a real idea of the ambitions of next-gen games. The only benchmark right now are current generation games with a few extra graphical bells & whistles.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Barcelona Spain
Yeah, I've no idea - I'm stream-of-thought-ing there. It might not be feasible at all. But I think there'll be a good bit of rope there for devs to use and to research, in terms of a new relationship between compute and just-in-time delivery of precomputed/cached data, when you pass into tens of MBs per frame with (hopefully) workable latency. It'll be interesting to see.
The idea of precomputed more data is a very good one. For example in HZD part of the GI is precomputed they have 6 different lighting setup depending of the weather but I suppose you can go further and precomputed some far away shadows and loading the shadows depending of the weather and position of sun and only calculate what is fully dynamic in the scene and it can be apply to tons of other place. This change everything when the streaming part is not the bottleneck. And I suppose you can probably precompute high quality lighting offline raytraced settings with more RAM on next generation console.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,532
xbox 360 gpu was better than anything on PC at its release. Dreamcast was also better than anything available on PC. PS2 was better in some ways
I highly doubt it. Maybe it could do certain, specific things better. but better overall than the best you could get on pcs? You are going to have to show me some receipts.
 

John Wick

Member
Oct 27, 2017
386
United Kingdom
He wasnt talking about anything other than the price, the original poster i quoted that is. And theres already a 300$ card thats low wattage with whats probably very close to ps5 performance. The 5700. Add another year to improve the manufacturing process, the architecture tweaks and the drastically lower prices Sony will be paying and its quite easy to see what nonsense the posts im replying to are.
Also don't equate buying a graphics card for PC to an APU which has the CPU and GPU on one die. This in itself cuts costs massively. A separate CPU and GPU would cost far more than combined on the same die.
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,894
I highly doubt it. Maybe it could do certain, specific things better. but better overall than the best you could get on pcs? You are going to have to show me some receipts.

“Xbox 360 GPU (Xenos) was ahead of PC GPUs at launch (both in features and in performance). It was also ahead of the PS3 GPU that launched one year later. Memory bandwidth wasn't that great compared to PC GPUs, but EDRAM meant that render target writes (and alpha blending) didn't consume any memory bandwidth at all. In complex scenes (lots of overdraw or blending) it had practically way more bandwidth than PC GPUs. Xbox 360 CPU (Xenon) wasn't that bad either. It had 3 cores / 6 threads. 3.2 GHz. Full rate 4-wide SIMD multiply+add (FMA) among other goodies. But it was in-order CPU and PCs had out-of-order CPUs that were significantly better for running generic code. Still I would say that Xbox 360 was one of the only recent consoles that had an advantage (albeit pretty small) compared to PC hardware of the same time. But Geforce 8800 GTX was released one year later and it was significantly ahead of Xbox 360 GPU (in performance and features, it was the first GPU with compute shader support).”

Thats from a former ubisoft rendering lead and current principle engineer at unity.
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,327
Hold up. That U shape thing in the video thumbnail is actually what the system currently looks like? And we have UI impressions already? Or am I reading the whole thread title wrong
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
1,437

“Xbox 360 GPU (Xenos) was ahead of PC GPUs at launch (both in features and in performance). It was also ahead of the PS3 GPU that launched one year later. Memory bandwidth wasn't that great compared to PC GPUs, but EDRAM meant that render target writes (and alpha blending) didn't consume any memory bandwidth at all. In complex scenes (lots of overdraw or blending) it had practically way more bandwidth than PC GPUs. Xbox 360 CPU (Xenon) wasn't that bad either. It had 3 cores / 6 threads. 3.2 GHz. Full rate 4-wide SIMD multiply+add (FMA) among other goodies. But it was in-order CPU and PCs had out-of-order CPUs that were significantly better for running generic code. Still I would say that Xbox 360 was one of the only recent consoles that had an advantage (albeit pretty small) compared to PC hardware of the same time. But Geforce 8800 GTX was released one year later and it was significantly ahead of Xbox 360 GPU (in performance and features, it was the first GPU with compute shader support).”

Thats from a former ubisoft rendering lead and current principle engineer at unity.
The 360s GPU was more advanced than anything on PC because of its unified shades, but performance wise it was closer to a ATI 1800 XT. Raw performance the 7800 GTX is just a much more powerful card.
 

Terror-Billy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,697
I'm really worried about storage on these consoles. I have 3 TB on my Xbox One X and it's not enough. If they are going to limit us to the internal storage, I hope it is at least 2 TB. External SSDs are expensive.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,026
Hold up. That U shape thing in the video thumbnail is actually what the system currently looks like? And we have UI impressions already? Or am I reading the whole thread title wrong
It's what the latest dev kit looks like.

On UI, I think Sony was describing ideas they were working on for the new UI, I don't think they showed Wired anything in that regard.
 

Rion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,045
Ok, this is the second time I have seen DF guys feeling down on Nex Gen console specs. During First Reveal, they said that RT and fastest SSD is just buzzword used by Cerny. Now they are speculating that RT hardware won't be as impressive as Nvidia's current offering.

I am here just hoping they are wrong on this matter.

Also, I will correct them here. There was no confusion on RT when even the interviewer tweeted that RT was talked in regards to visual feature not just audio
Alex always plays down anything console wise and John doesn't seem all that excited by modern games in general nowadays.

I watch DF mainly for Richard's opinion.
 

HairyFist87

Member
Jun 17, 2018
873
Ok, this is the second time I have seen DF guys feeling down on Nex Gen console specs. During First Reveal, they said that RT and fastest SSD is just buzzword used by Cerny. Now they are speculating that RT hardware won't be as impressive as Nvidia's current offering.

I am here just hoping they are wrong on this matter.

Also, I will correct them here. There was no confusion on RT when even the interviewer tweeted that RT was talked in regards to visual feature not just audio
I mean they probably aren't wrong. For roughly £450 what can we expect? I'm sure it will still be great and I'm really excited for the new Xbox.

However, if you wanted RTX at the best level you would need a 2080ti which is over £1000. We've got to keep our expectations in check here.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,250
Couldn’t help but shake my head at the Switch storage comparison. The Switch launched at 32GB in an era of 50GB games. The PS5 with launch with 512-1024GB in an era of 100GB games. How is the situation even remotely comparable?

Even using the ridiculous assumption that every game will be 100GB, that’d be 5-10 games (depending on how much the OS will use) installed at once. How many games do you need installed at one time?
 

fersnake

Member
Nov 17, 2017
387
Guatemala
Dont spect a next gen console with a 4tb ssd @400 bucks, i have my hopes that it launch @500 with a 1tb ssd + 1tb storage, videos, photos and game cache
 

VFX_Veteran

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,003
I mean they probably aren't wrong. For roughly £450 what can we expect? I'm sure it will still be great and I'm really excited for the new Xbox.

However, if you wanted RTX at the best level you would need a 2080ti which is over £1000. We've got to keep our expectations in check here.
Every generation Sony2 fans want to beat out the best PC hardware and Xbox hardware so they can claim superiority. It's always been the case and it will always be the case until Sony games somehow get developed and released on PCs.

The SSD tech is a game-changer for the consoles because they never had any fast storage medium. But how that translates into a game and how it looks? Nothing. So I'm not sure why people are thinking games will suddenly look better just because of an SSD.