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Digital Foundry | Gears 5 Analysis: A New Technological Standard For Xbox One?

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
7,392
Minnesota
Resolution counting is a manual process and finding range of dynamic resolution is even harder in that you have to take a screenshot from what you think is a high load area and THEN count the frames manually. When you add in things like TAA and reconstruction it means your pool of available screenshots that give you a non reconstructed image becomes even smaller as it has to be a frame taken right before the reconstruction comes into effect. A 60FPS game will have some 216000 frames captured in an hour's worth of footage. Trying to find that one screenshot with the lowest possible resolution AND without reconstruction is not going to be easy.

Then you have to factor in that dynamic res ends up being a case by case basis. The game may drop the resolution for me but not for you, in the same area as it's dependent on so many variables from your personal playstyle, exact location on a map and what you are looking at, placement of enemies, the actual action happening on screen.

In short, it's super hard as it's done manually..there's no tool that goes " find me the lowest possible resolution from this capture" and it's easily possible to miss some things especially given the timeframe they are given to make videos.
If only more people understood this.


Having said that, I wish these conversations didn't result in people pitting tech analysis channels against each other. It's a good thing for multiple outlets like Digital Foundry, VG Tech, GameXplain, etc. to co-exist and be able to provide different data points in a similar way to researchers conducting their own studies but still based on the same objective. In other words, objective measurement is valuable, but aggregated objective data even moreso, so it makes zero sense for people to try to devalue one channel just to praise another; we should be evaluating all the data as a whole and appreciating everyone who contributes to synthesizing that data.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,134
If only more people understood this.


Having said that, I wish these conversations didn't result in people pitting tech analysis channels against each other. It's a good thing for multiple outlets like Digital Foundry, VG Tech, GameXplain, etc. to co-exist and be able to provide different data points in a similar way to researchers conducting their own studies but still based on the same objective. In other words, objective measurement is valuable, but aggregated objective data even moreso, so it makes zero sense for people to try to devalue one channel just to praise another; we should be evaluating all the data as a whole and appreciating everyone who contributes to synthesizing that data.
Agreed I appreciate all the work all of yall do on the tech channels
 

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
7,392
Minnesota
As much as I applaud more options but DF is a cut above everyone because of the pain staking effort they put into the production of thier videos that makes it much more accessible for a range of gamers with various levels of technical knowledge on what's going on. Even better, people with no knowledge can still appreciate some of the tricks implemented and dissected because DF is considerate of them.
It's perfectly fine to think that DF is the best at what they do, but I just want to say - and I hate to do this in a DF thread because this isn't about me, but I've seen this kind of comment that suggests that other tech channels don't put in as much work as DF - I (and I'm sure other tech channels too) work my ass off on our tech analysis videos: Discovery, analysis, research, writing (this is given special consideration since our audience isn't necessarily knowledgeable about rendering tech and the script needs to reflect that), production, i.e. the full gamut, and this is on top of me already holding down other jobs as well. There may be different focuses between channels, but that doesn't mean those other channels aren't putting real effort into their work.

I don't mean to come across the wrong way - I have a ton of respect for DF's work and am friends with both John and Alex - but I'd be lying if I said it isn't frustrating to see other channels get thrown under a bus because people feel the need to contrast them with DF every time there's a case of differing results between channels. Hopefully that will change in the future, but I'm not very optimistic.
 

chandoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,490
I'm temporarily breaking my 'no posting on forums' rule to defend against this. I note that their performance results are almost exactly the same as mine in those same scenes (drops to low 50s with torn frames). However, I only tested those certain scenes as I had to manually add in a few torn frames here and there which the tools annoyingly missed - so it took hours to do the FPS tests. It sucks.

Secondly, I specifically did not mention the lowest resolution as I hadn't found one that low. Pay attention to the wording - values such as "XXX" and "YYY". That's not the minimum, those were the averages that I found - as in, numbers that popped up often. Even getting those numbers takes a long time and it's just not possible to produce a video of this scale while getting every single DRS value - honestly, dynamic resolutions stress me out to an unhealthy degree. It is not my specialty finding all possible values - I can only do that given hours of time to work with. That's something I've always struggled with.

I should never have covered this damn game. All it has brought me is misery from angry PlayStation fans. Internet mobs can go to hell.

Alright, signing off again.
Fuck the haters, you should really start adding people to the ignore list on those kind of users, at least on this forum, so you have less of that to deal with.

The video and coverage is fantastic.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
2,133
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
VGtech has been more reliable for framerate analysis (actually finding and capturing troublesome spots and posting the actual hard stats), resolution analysis and just actually catching dynamic resolutions in general. Not sure what they’re doing differently but they’re on top of it, they cover way more games to. Mind you they only cover resolution/framerate and don’t touch too much on graphical effects that often but framerate and resolution and the majority of what people care about anyway. They also don’t post 20 minute long videos that can be summarised in a few dot points, instead they just post the analysis and a description covering everything. Probably why they can cover so much more as they’re editing videos less I guess.
I am not sure if this is a swing at us, but I am pretty sure our long form videos cannot indeed be summarised in a dot point way, but usually require *even more* context, images, and comparisons than the run time of the video itself. I find myself actually constantly wishing my videos and editing had more time so I could cover everything better.
 

xMaximusx

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
235
User banned (permanent): platform warring, trolling, long history of infractions, account in junior phase
DF called out....if nothing else, it's entertaining commentary at times lol
 

chandoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,490
I am not sure if this is a swing at us, but I am pretty sure our long form videos cannot indeed be summarised in a dot point way, but usually require *even more* context, images, and comparisons than the run time of the video itself. I find myself actually constantly wishing my videos and editing had more time so I could cover everything better.
I feel like that bullet point remark was maybe towards the way I tend to write summaries in DF threads, they're only meant to be for people who can't watch videos but want some info, not as a way to generalize or dis-interest people from watching the full videos for the insightful commentary and the technical breakdown. :-/
 

Super Barrier

Member
Nov 20, 2017
653
I'm temporarily breaking my 'no posting on forums' rule to defend against this. I note that their performance results are almost exactly the same as mine in those same scenes (drops to low 50s with torn frames). However, I only tested those certain scenes as I had to manually add in a few torn frames here and there which the tools annoyingly missed - so it took hours to do the FPS tests. It sucks.

Secondly, I specifically did not mention the lowest resolution as I hadn't found one that low. Pay attention to the wording - values such as "XXX" and "YYY". That's not the minimum, those were the averages that I found - as in, numbers that popped up often. Even getting those numbers takes a long time and it's just not possible to produce a video of this scale while getting every single DRS value - honestly, dynamic resolutions stress me out to an unhealthy degree. It is not my specialty finding all possible values - I can only do that given hours of time to work with. That's something I've always struggled with.

I should never have covered this damn game. All it has brought me is misery from angry PlayStation fans. Internet mobs can go to hell.

Alright, signing off again.
Your latest video has over 200k views and counting. Let that sink in. The criticism is part of the game. Try to block the negativity and continue to do what you do best 🙏👍
 

LukarWuff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,040
Just want to say thank you to Dark1x and Dictator for your hard work on these analyses. They're very interesting to watch and read, and for multiplatform games, they help me in deciding what version of a game to play. I'm sorry you get a lot of crap thrown at you, but try not to let it get to you. Most of us really appreciate what you do.
 

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,478
DF called out....if nothing else, it's entertaining commentary at times lol
The amount of bullshit John and Alex are dealing with over this is absurd. They did a fantastic job and people need to stop being so damn insensitive and downright cruel. Does anyone realize how much words can fucking hurt on the internet anymore? Pouring your soul into something just so some little asshole can say you're paid off by MS and your work is meaningless....it's rotten. John already doesn't want to post here anymore, and doesn't want to do big budget analysis videos. People keep this shit up and we'll lose a wealth of knowledge and someone that has a genuine passion for gaming.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,784
DF called out....if nothing else, it's entertaining commentary at times lol
In all honesty, screw this person. Firstly, there is nothing "dishonest" or "lying" about pixel counting. It's just how it is, most likely in the entirety of John's capture the game never went that low in the first place so he could not have known.
Especially since this person does not understand tech nor does he understand that shadows don't always have to be cast by objects directly above you nor does real time shadows mean every object casts shadows.
 

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,341
you are barking up the wrong tree. i literally told the guy he should be ashamed of himself for posting this. im just not reporting him to the mods.
I only suggested reporting him, I never said you had to.
The amount of bullshit John and Alex are dealing with over this is absurd. They did a fantastic job and people need to stop being so damn insensitive and downright cruel. Does anyone realize how much words can fucking hurt on the internet anymore? Pouring your soul into something just so some little asshole can say you're paid off by MS and your work is meaningless....it's rotten. John already doesn't want to post here anymore, and doesn't want to do big budget analysis videos. People keep this shit up and we'll lose a wealth of knowledge and someone that has a genuine passion for gaming.
This. It is so annoying. I saw Alex's post on twitter and I felt so sorry for the guy... some gamers are just so toxic. I hope DF continues their excellent work.
 

Lethologica

Member
Oct 27, 2017
699
Midwest, US
Fucking shameful that that fanboys of a certain console have run (or are in the process of) off yet another long time poster that works in or around the game industry.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,784
Your latest video has over 200k views and counting. Let that sink in. The criticism is part of the game. Try to block the negativity and continue to do what you do best 🙏👍
I think this is important to note.
When you have hundred of thousands of people watching something you are bound to get people who disagree with you and also are downright aggressive towards you, hence it's unreasonable to expect yourself to please everyone. Because if you do then you'll always end up being disappointed and stressed. Part of the reason is also DF going mainstream in the past 5 years or so which means the average audience DF gets today is not as technically minded as the average audience from 5-6 years ago or more, even if the overall numbers are higher. As such you have to expect that people do not understand the reason behind the discrepancies or why one thing was talked about here but not there etc. And it's not necessarily a bad thing that people don't know as you make sure to keep that in mind when making videos don't you? To expect that not all the people who watch your videos understand the tech, it just so happens that a part of that group of people are critical/aggressive towards the videos so it should not be surprising when it happens. And when something is expected, you can try to prepare yourself for it.
 

Raide

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,943
DF called out....if nothing else, it's entertaining commentary at times lol
Seriously, someone needs to do an analysis of this video as well. Inception up in this.

BTW, the video is super petty but if you start to dig into the tiny problem elements of every single game, you will find things but it will also make you a jaded and miserable person.
 

Lokimaster

Member
May 12, 2019
407
NX gamer Says the same thing. Says that the game drops to 1080p on the X, and it rarely hits 4K. A lot more drops in frame rate shown by him as well.
Overall a good looking game.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,078
NJ
NX gamer Says the same thing. Says that the game drops to 1080p on the X, and it rarely hits 4K. A lot more drops in frame rate shown by him as well.
Overall a good looking game.
Awesome to know X improves over base consoles with better SSR, post processing, cinematic, etc. Also great to see textures on the X are higher than pc high texture and bit below the ultra texture pack. Dev wasn't lying that it pushes the X with textures

Gears 5's method of rendering is the perfect solution for how games should do it. Push native 4k when available but when things are pushing hardware let reconstruction handle to keep 4k output. Way better than standard dynamic res and doing total checkerboarding etc. Best of both worlds. More importantly means no work necessary for devs to run game in 4k all the time running on nextgen hardware :) I fully expect RT and ultra textures for Scarlett
 

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,224
Cape Cod, MA
Awesome to know X improves over base consoles with better SSR, post processing, cinematic, etc. Also great to see textures on the X are higher than pc high texture and bit below the ultra texture pack. Dev wasn't lying that it pushes the X with textures

Gears 5's method of rendering is the perfect solution for how games should do it. Push native 4k when available but when things are pushing hardware let reconstruction handle to keep 4k output. Way better than standard dynamic res and doing total checkerboarding etc. Best of both worlds. More importantly means no work necessary for devs to run game in 4k all the time running on nextgen hardware :) I fully expect RT and ultra textures for Scarlett
I'm really hoping. I can't imagine playing Control without RT, and I can't really imagine how much further you could go in the direction Gears 5 is going without it (the materials looks so much better with insane SSR making way more surfaces reflective, but it does kind of further highlight SSRs limitations).
 

Lokimaster

Member
May 12, 2019
407
Awesome to know X improves over base consoles with better SSR, post processing, cinematic, etc. Also great to see textures on the X are higher than pc high texture and bit below the ultra texture pack. Dev wasn't lying that it pushes the X with textures

Gears 5's method of rendering is the perfect solution for how games should do it. Push native 4k when available but when things are pushing hardware let reconstruction handle to keep 4k output. Way better than standard dynamic res and doing total checkerboarding etc. Best of both worlds. More importantly means no work necessary for devs to run game in 4k all the time running on nextgen hardware :) I fully expect RT and ultra textures for Scarlett

Uh....You do know what they are doing is a form of checker-boarding right? Reconstructing an image is checker-boarding.

But yes, it helps with keeping the frame rate high thats good. just not the locked 60 we all thought.
 

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,224
Cape Cod, MA
Uh....You do know what they are doing is a form of checker-boarding right? Reconstructing an image is checker-boarding.

But yes, it helps with keeping the frame rate high thats good. just not the locked 60 we all thought.
Not quite. Checker boarding is a specific form of reconstruction. Many forms of reconstruction are not checker boarding.

Checker boarding upscales from a specific resolution. You can't readily do dynamic upscaling with it like Gears (and say, id tech games) do.
 

DrDeckard

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,914
Awesome to know X improves over base consoles with better SSR, post processing, cinematic, etc. Also great to see textures on the X are higher than pc high texture and bit below the ultra texture pack. Dev wasn't lying that it pushes the X with textures

Gears 5's method of rendering is the perfect solution for how games should do it. Push native 4k when available but when things are pushing hardware let reconstruction handle to keep 4k output. Way better than standard dynamic res and doing total checkerboarding etc. Best of both worlds. More importantly means no work necessary for devs to run game in 4k all the time running on nextgen hardware :) I fully expect RT and ultra textures for Scarlett
Yup, I totally agree. This is genuine wizardry that these devs are pulling now. To the untrained eye the image looks so sharp. I see the odd issues with foliage at time but otherwise it looks incredible, and so smooth.

Let's hope they can get to completely locking down the 60FPS target with future iterations. Super exciting to see.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,332
London
Finished the game and watched this video today. Great work on the analysis John.

The Coalition have done an excellent job with Gears 5. Cutscenes are a good step up from Gears 4, and character models look really good too.

I appreciate their push for 60fps in campaign mode but would prefer an option to lock it at 30 with vsync enabled.

All things considered, Gears is in good hands.