Disco Elysium Developers Shout Out Marx And Engels In Game Awards Victory Speech

tulpa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,065
I don't really disagree with anything you are saying here. I suppose my point is that I don't consider 1 way of life to be vastly superior to the others, because there are huge positives and negatives for each.
sure, i'm not saying it's a better way to live. would i rather have that life with no modern entertainment, technology, medicine, and die at the age of 30? no, absolutely not. but we can certainly learn the lessons of history and anthropology on how to make the way we live better. in modern capitalist systems, we're overworked and fail to utilize our full human potential.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
If people were naturally greedy and selfish, charities wouldn't exist, because why would greed allow people to give away their possessions? Doctors Without Borders wouldn't exist, because why should doctors give their time freely without pay and with the possibility of becoming infected with any number of diseases?

No. People are not naturally greedy and selfish, and there's plenty of examples why. To assume that being greedy and/or selfish is part of human nature is both foolhardy and *exactly what the capitalists want you to believe*.
Again “people” is not a single entity as I said before in this thread. Some will rally for others, while others will not. There are plenty of examples to show some people are more greedy than they are selfless.

I don’t think capitalism brought this about, nor do I view it as a boogeyman.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,106
I’m ok with an assumed fact that I can see as opposed to an assumed fact that has no viability to be seen as its requirements are outlandishly difficult to pull off.

If you don’t like this that is fine, I’m fine with these assumptions.
We are talking about inherent greed not communism.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
We are talking about inherent greed not communism.
Agreed. I was referring to my Vault Tec level evil suggestion on how to isolate people before they are biased by society just to see if not a single one of them would cut selfishly or in greed. That all participants in said use case would be selfless and act only for the group rather than the individual.

I was not talking about communism with that reply.
 

Kaironaut

Member
Oct 25, 2017
977
Agreed. I was referring to my Vault Tec level evil suggestion on how to isolate people before they are biased by society just to see if not a single one of them would cut selfishly or in greed. That all participants in said use case would be selfless and act on for the group rather than the individual.

I was not talking about communism with that reply.
We don't have such a method of testing this "hypothesis", nor is it remotely practical and/or ethical to produce such a method. Man is born into a society built by the ones that have come before. It's irrelevant and frankly disingenuous to suggest that people are inherently greedy because we can't separate Man from Society to test where the greed comes from.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,106
Agreed. I was referring to my Vault Tec level evil suggestion on how to isolate people before they are biased by society just to see if not a single one of them would cut selfishly or in greed. That all participants in said use case would be selfless and act only for the group rather than the individual.

I was not talking about communism with that reply.
But that’s what you’d need to prove your argument as well.
Since I see greed all the time is not an argument.
I see people giving birth all the time, which means more division of resources, opposite of greed far more then any other event in history.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,744
There is no correct definition.
The first definition is the idea of critically looking at economics/politics and people, the Marxist Theory, and that is the one most relevant to Karl Marx and his works.
Perhaps, but I would imagine there is a society which hews closest to the theories expressed by Marx, and that society would have to operate in a certain way, and it’s that end product I’m more interested in; I’ve never been much one for theory, much more about implementation
 

Kaironaut

Member
Oct 25, 2017
977
Arguing on a basis of "human nature" is a disingenuous argument, because "human nature" is a zeitgeist whose definition shifts every generation or so. You can no more base some foolhardy logic about the human condition on "well it's just in our nature" than you can provide an objective review of a video game.

Political philosophy has changed and shifted over millennia thanks to that simple understanding.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
We don't have such a method of testing this "hypothesis", nor is it remotely practical and/or ethical to produce such a method. Man is born into a society built by the ones that have come before. It's irrelevant and frankly disingenuous to suggest that people are inherently greedy because we can't separate Man from Society to test where the greed comes from.
I don’t think it’s disingenuous at all to say that some will value themselves over others (and likewise some are more selfless than others). Society and reality as it is suggest that some people are like this. As I clearly pointed out the other way to show this isn’t true would be evil (hence my more recent mentions of Vault Tec).
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,106
Perhaps, but I would imagine there is a society which hews closest to the theories expressed by Marx, and that society would have to operate in a certain way, and it’s that end product I’m more interested in; I’ve never been much one for theory, much more about implementation
What do you mean, Karl Marx for example wrote that most societies would become socialist(and defined that) out of need, and in that regard he seems to correct as most countries slowly move that way.
Karl Marx never really wrote anything that was suppose to resemble a blueprint for how a society is suppose to run.
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,828
If people were naturally greedy and selfish, charities wouldn't exist, because why would greed allow people to give away their possessions? Doctors Without Borders wouldn't exist, because why should doctors give their time freely without pay and with the possibility of becoming infected with any number of diseases?

No. People are not naturally greedy and selfish, and there's plenty of examples why. To assume that being greedy and/or selfish is part of human nature is both foolhardy and *exactly what the capitalists want you to believe*.
Not all giving is for the good of others, especially the ultra rich do it, plenty of greedy and selfish people in the world

Side note, and as expected of the steam community

 
Feb 8, 2019
954
I don’t think it’s disingenuous at all to say that some will value themselves over others (and likewise some are more selfless than others).
The problem is you're implying that this is an inherent attittude. That there's some sort of genetic or predetermined factor that will 100% cause this to happen. When asked what that factor is you've only given anecdotal evidence even in the face of an scientific report saying otherwise given last page.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
The problem is you're implying that this is an inherent attittude. That there's some sort of genetic or predetermined factor that will 100% cause this to happen. When asked what that factor is you've only given anecdotal evidence even in the face of an scientific report saying otherwise given last page.
I didn’t refute the link or that people (even those who are selfish) will want to collaborate as a unit. I could easy turn this and say that you’re saying it’s not factor based off of nothing, not even anecdotal bc that scenario to even test it in doesn’t exist.
 
Feb 8, 2019
954
I didn’t refute the link or that people (even those who are selfish) will want to collaborate as a unit. I could easy turn this and say that you’re saying it’s not factor based off of nothing, not even anecdotal bc that scenario to even test it in doesn’t exist.
I'm willing to say it's not a factor based off the fact that there's no genetic basis dictating that people will become greedy. The existence of people who aren't greedy shows this unless you are willing to illustrate what said genetic factor is like how I can point to the genetic factor that makes my skin a different shade from others. And ultimately since there's no ethereal magic that is setting everyone on a predetermined path of greed as shown by the existence of people aren't greedy then that would mean the reason for greedy people (and non greedy people) would have to be some sort of changing factor such as society and environment. Things that are not immutable.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
I'm willing to say it's not a factor based off the fact that there's no genetic basis dictating that people will become greedy. The existence of people who aren't greedy shows this unless you are willing to illustrate what said genetic factor is like how I can point to the genetic factor that makes my skin a different shade from others. And ultimately since there's no ethereal magic that is setting everyone on a predetermined path of greed as shown by the existence of people aren't greedy then that would mean the reason for greedy people (and non greedy people) would have to be some sort of changing factor such as society and environment. Things that are not immutable.
This is equivalent to saying that people with brown hair (your not greedy people) is proof that people can’t have blonde hair (or to go back to your example be greedy). This is obviously not true.

The reason people can be selfless can just as easily be the other side of the coin for those that are selfish.
 
Feb 8, 2019
954
This is equivalent to saying that people with brown hair (your not greedy people) is proof that people can’t have blonde hair (or to go back to your example be greedy). This is obviously not true.

The reason people can be selfless can just as easily be the other side of the coin for those that are selfish.
There are genetic factors that one can point to that determine hair colour.
 

travisbickle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,953
I don’t think it’s disingenuous at all to say that some will value themselves over others (and likewise some are more selfless than others). Society and reality as it is suggest that some people are like this. As I clearly pointed out the other way to show this isn’t true would be evil (hence my more recent mentions of Vault Tec).

The point isn't about what people believe it's about what is true. Is it true that some people have greater value over other people? Ironically, a proponent of this in contemporary philosophy is the "dialectic materialism" of Marx/Engels who theorised the truth comes from our understanding of the material conditions and how the material world is interpreted by society.
 

DrSlek

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,889
I bought this game the second Jim Sterling said you could be a Communist.

I am not disappointed.
 

Last_colossi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
Australia
You don't think there's any difference between the society we augment for our children then the one we ask them to partake in as adults? Society is merely a social construct created in the present day by our naive understanding of material reality a few hundred years ago.

We teach our children to share, work together, love their neighbours/people around them, that their needs will be provided for but they should control their wants, be kind to everyone they meet, animals should be petted and stroked, hurting people is bad. Then we push them into a society, off our own creating, that's opposite and wonder how they become alienated. The way we talk to children about the environment and how it should be protected, yet we rape and exploit it as if it's an infinite resource given to us by a supernatural being ... as if the way we use it today in our economy is a byproduct for the way it was viewed when religious leaders had more prominence..

It's a society of our own making, a society whose only basis is how we view our material conditions, and we vilify the people who try to explain this to us.
Of course I do, when I said born in a vacuum I also meant to grow up and live in one. If a person was born in a seperate society with perfect morals and values then were thrown into any current day country at a young age their values would eventually be morphed by the society they live in. That's why I said "Communism in it's purest form is a nice idea, but I can't see it ever actually being implemented properly." because it's unrealistic to expect a whole nation to change their ideology willingly.

Also to your point about how should we expect our children to practice what we preach if we push them into a society of our own creation that's the opposite: humanity clings to convenience even if some of us try our hardest to do the right thing the majority will always do what's easiest, that's why climate change has gotten to the point it's at. Passing the blame to everyone including the ones that are doing all they can isn't fair.

At the same time I do actually believe humanity will eventually reverse the damage to the environment and probably successfully, humans are smart and creative enough to do so, it's just the majority won't step in until they start feeling the effects themselves.

But yeah I'm getting waaaaaay off topic lol, sorry I'll try to keep my posts relevant.
 

DrSlek

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,889
Because I never said that 1 person was doing all these tasks. Some people in an ancient society would have been tasked with hunting, others with tending to children, others to planting crops, ect. But they are still going through the same motions each day.
It's been pretty solidly concluded by anthropologists that the people you're speaking of had shitloads more free time than we do in our current societies. They also had control over the conditions of their work, which the vast majority of us do not in our current societies.

Acting like this is a 1:1 comparison is very silly.
 

aember

Member
Oct 26, 2017
721
People praising Communism has to be some fucking inside joke I'm not getting, right? It's trolling.

I've seen my family in Cuba starve and go blind from malnutrition and now these hipster kids are going yippee over it like it's some fucking trendy shit.
Yeah, seriously. The worst thing to happen to my country was communism as well and now seeing this thread is just a huge "what century is this??" to me. Like, I really hope this is some big inside joke.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,006
People praising Communism has to be some fucking inside joke I'm not getting, right? It's trolling.

I've seen my family in Cuba starve and go blind from malnutrition and now these hipster kids are going yippee over it like it's some fucking trendy shit.
Someone will be (or maybe has been?) along shortly to tell you that's not REAL communism so the horrendous human suffering it has caused this century doesn't really count.
 

tulpa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,065
Yeah, seriously. The worst thing to happen to my country was communism as well and now seeing this thread is just a huge "what century is this??" to me. Like, I really hope this is some big inside joke.
Someone will be (or maybe has been?) along shortly to tell you that's not REAL communism so the horrendous human suffering it has caused this century doesn't really count.
the worst thing that ever happened to my country was capitalism. i've suffered horribly because of our capitalist system and the way it dehumanizes people and strips them of their basic needs and i know of others who've suffered and even died because of it. why is everything bad that happens in a country with a Communist-led government socialism's fault, but the suffering that happens in a capitalist country isn't because of capitalism?

or, better yet. the reason you're suffering isn't because of capitalism-- it's because we don't have real capitalism.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,006
the worst thing that ever happened to my country was capitalism. i've suffered horribly because of our capitalist system and the way it dehumanizes people and strips them of their basic needs and i know of others who've suffered and even died because of it. why is everything bad that happens in a country with a Communist-led government socialism's fault, but the suffering that happens in a capitalist country isn't because of capitalism?

or, better yet. the reason you're suffering isn't because of capitalism-- it's because we don't have real capitalism.
What country out of interest?
 

Deleted member 9317

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
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New York
User Banned (1 Month): Trolling another member with references to violence, misrepresenting information and other members over a series of posts in this thread.
the worst thing that ever happened to my country was capitalism. i've suffered horribly because of our capitalist system and the way it dehumanizes people and strips them of their basic needs and i know of others who've suffered and even died because of it. why is everything bad that happens in a country with a Communist-led government socialism's fault, but the suffering that happens in a capitalist country isn't because of capitalism?

or, better yet. the reason you're suffering isn't because of capitalism-- it's because we don't have real capitalism.
Edit: apologies for personal attack and garbage opinion.
 
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tulpa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,065
What country out of interest?
the United States
don't know what the fuck in reading in this thread.

A lot of posts in this thread is interesting. It seems to me all you guys and girls need is one good game about communism to stan for.

Knowing gamers and how hard they defend their beloved games, all of a sudden politics is A-OK in games as long as they like the game, no matter how subversive the message is.
who said that? please quote one person who said politics shouldn’t be in games who is also praising the Disco devs for this. you only need to find literally a single person, should be easy.
And LOL people actually arguing in this echo chamber thread that communism is good and everything else is bad?
please quote one person who said that
For a person identifying as non-binary, you would be hung by the noose in the streets of communism.
wow you’re a shitty person alright
 

Artdayne

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,411
Yeah, seriously. The worst thing to happen to my country was communism as well and now seeing this thread is just a huge "what century is this??" to me. Like, I really hope this is some big inside joke.
You're not familiar with the dark history of Capitalism for you to say this.

Many of the Native Americans were killed for Capital interests. 250 years of slavery was a major factor in pushing the United States into the economic superpower that it is. Western imperialism, many of the wars that the United States has been involved in were for the interest of Capital. This doesn't even get into the millions that die from starvation every year when we have vast excesses of food, problems with homelessness that could easily be addressed but aren't.
 

philz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
86
the worst thing that ever happened to my country was capitalism. i've suffered horribly because of our capitalist system and the way it dehumanizes people and strips them of their basic needs and i know of others who've suffered and even died because of it. why is everything bad that happens in a country with a Communist-led government socialism's fault, but the suffering that happens in a capitalist country isn't because of capitalism?

or, better yet. the reason you're suffering isn't because of capitalism-- it's because we don't have real capitalism.
There are members of my wife’s family that were very likely executed because others in the family fled communism. Fuck off.
 

tulpa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,065
Oh for crying out loud.
yeah you’re right. no one in the US dies from poverty or lack of access to health care.

It's the truth. Sorry if you dislike the truth, but I hear and see how LGBTQ people are treated in Russia.

Enjoy living in the comfort of United States. Marx.
lmao the soviet union literally collapsed and the communist party was deposed in 1991. it transitioned to capitalism under Yeltsin shortly afterward. im actually arguing with someone who thinks Russia is a communist country please read literally anything about history before coming in here with your transphobic garbage