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twentytwo22

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,528
Boss variety is nowhere near as good as previous FROM games.
Build variety is incredibly minimal, which leads me to not want to replay it any time soon.
Very little variety in encounters. This is kinda what they were going for with bosses (you need to perfect the bosses move set), but it doesn't make it interesting a second time. In other FROM games, you could try heavy/light weapons, range, magic, pyro, etc.

Great game though.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,655
Its shortcomings are simple to me and all related to combat.

Combat in this game is too simple and restrictive. Almost all boss fights boil down to just deflecting and countering with your regular-ass attacks, and the use of most combat arts (not called Ichimonji) or prosthetic arms (not called fireworks) is usually ill-advised. ESPECIALLY the vast majority of combat arts, which can end up consuming a bunch of spirit emblems and end up doing fuck-all as far as vitality or posture damage, if they even manage to hit. I have no idea what's the point for so much of that shit, shit that by the way can take a fuck-ton of grinding to unlock. So their worthlessness is magnified even more greatly. The game essentially barrels you down its rather myopic and narrow combat design and actively discourages experimentation, else you'll quickly chow down through your emblem stash. Which you need to use prosthetic arms and some combat arts. And which cost money to acquire. And the game will rob you of half your money every single time you die, which you'll no doubt die countless of times.

I enjoyed this game a lot, but I do there was more useful versatility in how battles play out. The fact that I'm on my fifth playthrough despite having these misgivings speaks to the incredibly kinetic and highly satisfying nature of the core of Sekiro's combat. I just wish there was more options, and that those options were encouraged.


Stealth is also a little too simplistic in Sekiro I guess but I'm kinda fine with it since it's not really a stealth game, and what's there works well enough anyway.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
I disagree about 20 spirit emblems not being enough, you can completely lock down minibosses if you have the right stuff. What is underwhelming are the talents that give you +1 spirit emblems, they should be cheaper.

One thing I noticed is that the bonfire/sculptures have a shop interface to buy spirit emblems but the interface has categories for every other type of item. Would have been neat if we could have killed shopkeepers and added them to our magic sculpture shop, otherwise get rid of the useless tabs From, ya amateurs.

Combat arts all need buffs, they're usually worse than just attacking normally and they're more difficult to actually pull off without getting reamed in the face.
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,104
Go on then, as good as it is I think it's the beginning of something better to come and perhaps improving on some of the things below is what would take Sekiro to the next level for me.

With both the skill trees and prosthetic trees being full of a fair amount of fluff it does eventually limit the excitement of upgrading Sekiro's kit.
Throw in that you also probably wont be up for using the prosthetics or special attacks that use more spirit emblems because the base amount of them can get burnt through fast and the upgrades you can get for spirit emblems are so tiny it's almost like why bother.
The lance felt like it came too late, at a point where most enemies just seem to be block central making it kinda pointless maybe? I may just not have experimented with it enough.

Now this next one is definitely all part of the personal preference train, but the world design, it feels so close yet to far at times.
During the mid game Sekiro can open up quite nicely, missing Genichiro for the longest time led me on a merry adventure to every other possible area you can go, this unfortunately had a knock on effect of leading me to believe things were only going to get more diverse from there, alas I kinda just jumped ahead a bit and the game for the most part focuses on smartly reusing the pieces it has around the castle to extend things in later stages.
So in the end the game world reminded me of a smaller version of Dark Souls 2's ven diagram like progression where you get some options stemming from a central source but they all ultimately just lead to one final destination, I was hoping for more looping Lordran goodness.
Mt Congo was one of my favourite areas, and its open nature/options of certain combat areas as well as the more hidden paths requiring a keen eye and some nifty jumping/grappling has me thinking that this could be a good basis to sprawl out from going forward.

Combat system can struggle when faced with multiple enemies that aren't your average mook, consider the long swordsman brigade that turn up at the castle and things can get messy fast as you're trying to block and parry the guy spinning around like a ninja beyblade while his friend decides to gear up a flashing red symbol attack, it's not a good time.
Times like this is when the stealth mechanic is usually the secret sauce, but these guys in particular seemed to be perfectly placed that they'll always have eyes on where you'll be coming from or if not, they come in pairs.
Part of me feels like this is what really spurred the puppeteer ninjutsu and the unlockable ability to flip over a broken posture enemy.

Sidequests and side characters are mostly weak compared to previous From outings, makes the pseudo hub the weakest of their lot.
You could arguably throw in lore and plot here as well, for doing something more coherent it doesn't really go places that made me invested.

I'm not sure I'll tackle the difficulty right now because the learning process may have skewered my perception, the game felt like From had gone too far at first but over time it eventually clicked and what I once thought were excessive bosses in regards to health was something of a misconception on my end. Though I do feel that From's difficulty curve in this and Bloodborne seems kinda out of balance with rougher starts than you'd expect with breezier middles.
I'll also steer clear of build/weapon variety stuff since that starts leaning too much towards "that's what souls did though!" which doesn't necessarily fit what this game did go for despite sharing some DNA.

Great game, I think a sequel could really elevate this, which seems probable due to one of the endings
 

Malek

Member
Feb 15, 2018
551
the graphics, the art direction is pretty good like any other From software game for that matter
but the tech behind it feels pretty outdated, they need a new engine
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
Did not see no soul talk about* the enemy/boss recycle in this game, yet God of War got mauled for it.

*outside this thread
 

Elyian

Member
Feb 7, 2018
2,462
Did people like neglect the senpou martial arts or something? High monk and the three palm strike combo are actually really good. Feel like those moves keep gettinf overlooked for some reason.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Fuck the skill point grind, if you're gonna make something that grindy it should result in something game changing but it mostly doesn't. Just a waste of time.

My other big issue is there being no weapons, armour and lack of interesting items. Makes it feel like you don't get rewarded for exploring.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,064
Still one of my top From games, but it also disappoints me more than any other of their games because of untapped potential.

My biggest gripes are:

-Lacking enemy variety.
One aspect that really gets me is that minibosses never respawn, leading to even less enemies.

-Poor character/ability progression.
The combat arts feel very lacking. Most of them are too slow and enemies can bulldoze right through them. More movement abilites would have been better appreciated. (Arts could also have replaced the charge move rather than shoulder button combo, but that's another topic.)

-Spirit emblem/prosthetic balance.
I feel like I almost never can use the prosthetics to their full potential because I can only try them a couple of times before I'm out of emblems. Obviously some abilities should be limited in some way, but eh, it's a bit too much.

-Shallow world design.
There are some really well made areas individually, but then on the other hand there are quite a few areas that are very small and are almost never worth going back to. And what secrets are hidden never lead to anything cool, just another consumable item. For example, a big missed opportunity is when you unlock
Swimming. There's several large bodies of water in several opening areas. However when you do explore them, all that are there are the fish, and a few consumables. And the one headless which was cool, but then disappointing because it's just the same enemy again. I was hoping to find like a cave or a route to a new area.
The way the areas in the game dead end is really a step back. I want DS1 world design.
 

UsoEwin

Banned
Jul 14, 2018
2,063
I think people are too hung up on what is "effective" in Sekiro. I think you lose the spirit of From games in general when you eschew anything that doesn't give you the most stun or damage. Is parrying and simple dodges the fastest way to break most bosses? Yes. But using prosthetics and artes make the fights look a lot cooler, and are fun to use. I don't know why you wouldn't want to be a badass using mist raven to zip about getting constant vitality damage in.
 

Ogawa-san

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,686
A mechanic I found downright garbage and yet I expect to see people defending: losing 50% of your money and exp til next level.

Just leave my shit in a puddle like it was in every other game so at least I have a chance to keep it. The way it works only makes me turn back and go grind exp and dump money somewhere anytime I found anything with a red dot over their health bars, because going blind is a gamble that's heavily against me.

Bonus points for not being able to actually use all your money for most of the game thanks to limited vendors and their stocks. So you'll just sit there and watch your pooled money get wasted.
 

tjlee2

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,741
-In general, a lot of non-combat related components can be better. Dragonrot can be improved, eavesdropping can be more prominent, grappling hook wouldn't hurt from a few more applications, etc. Nothing major but can really help in taking a next step in improving the flow of the game outside of combat.

-Story is simple which is fine, but for the components tied to the story (and by extension to side-quest stories) the pacing can be improved. Purification and Return could really have been more spread out throughout the game for its flags. Side-quests were generally lackluster: Samurai quest has too little interaction even though it spans the most areas, monk quest was fine with 3 possible splits but none of the three really made use of the character, doctor quest was too mundane as there is already a fetch quest in the merchant, the sister quest in palace also lacks interaction, and really it's more the great carp quest with interaction to the npcs being optional. I think pacing and utilization of quests in general would be my biggest complaint regarding the game.

-Enemy design was generally solid, but there is an issue with general design of counter exchange. This is expected considering this is really the first instance where the player has this much control over the flow of action. Specifically, enemy counter moves generally can be simplified to 'faster than player character's fastest attack', which is why looping is possible against all relevant enemy types (which is a large majority of them), and why while enemy moveset is sufficiently large and diverse, it's possible to not see a lot of moves and move transitions. First step to alleviate the issue is to expand counter moveset to beyond fast counter and super armour counter, which I have no doubt From will be able to do since several enemies already have a baseline for such design.

-Mikiri window is too large. This trivializes one type of attack entirely. This is really the only skill in the game that really counts as severe power creep to its other option (standard deflect) in my opinion. For something that already offers significant frame advantage and greater than normal posture damage (especially with the upgrade skill), the massive window seems like overkill.

-More generally, perilous attacks can be better integrated in various move transitions. Most perilous attacks currently only come after certain moves, attacks or attack chains, making it so that you know what's coming up to 5 seconds in advance, or that once a particular sequence is initiated that only one particular type is possible. In either case, it's possible to go on auto-pilot for a period of time that I believe is too long for the combat mechanic for the game.

-Not necessary an issue with the game, but I hope, if a future title is available, that aerial combat is integrated a bit more.

Most of the above are not really issues but more general, reasonable oversights, in that it's not at all plainly obvious on first encounter. Most of them are also easy and within reason to resolve, and given From's track record I look forward to how they will improve upon the existing design.
 

silva1991

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,496
The lack of NG+ content isn't the issue, the issue is that it exists to begin with in Souls style. IMO the game should have had unlocked a higher difficulty option just like most non RPG action games where they change enemy placement and increase their attacks etc. Souls NG+ is just boring, always has been aside form DS2 which didn't do it very well either.

Also grinding for skills is so fucking garbage. Why do I grind for skills so much in a non RPG? why does every new skill points requirs even more XP every time I level up? it's not a damn RPG.

They should have let me use money to unlock abilities just like in most action games and that would have solved the economy issue you brought up.
 

Stoze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,591
  • Multiple endings and From trying to use them as a replay incentive. It's baffling to me that at the very least they don't
    have the final save before deciding what to do with Kuro at the very end. If you've done all that's required for the 3 good endings up to that point and are literally choosing between them in a list, then you shouldn't have to replay the entire game three times to witness all 3. A point of no return warning before divine dragon would've also been nice.
    Personally I'd prefer they just have the "final" save occur before all of these and have none of them be permanently missable - even Shura - but I know not everyone would get behind that.
  • Not being able to fully upgrade all prosthetics in NG, once again inelegantly forcing replay incentive. I believe you're only 2 Lapiz short after doing everything and the only way to get more is to get to the very end of the game again in NG+. It's dumb.
  • Along the same lines, it taking way too much exp and grinding/replaying the game to get all the skills. This actually worked against me as a replay incentive - going through the game again with all the skills at my disposal for experimentation sounds great. Except by the end of my first playthrough I only had about maybe 70% of them and now half-way through NG+ I'm still around that because the exp to level is huge and the later skills cost a ton of points.
  • Better exp for beating bosses, which would've helped with the above as well. I think it would've been rewarding if they flat out give entire skill points. Something like 1 per mini-boss, 2 per regular boss, and 3 for the final boss and DoH.
  • Combat Arts. There's way too many for only being able to have 1 slot, and most of them are strictly worse than just cranking out your regular attack string. Ichimonji Double only reinforces this, as having an art that resets your own posture damage, can potentially interrupt/stagger enemies, and do solid posture damage is way too good for the majority of bosses. My 2 cents - I would've liked 2 slots for combat arts (with a different button combo for each), one set that focuses on posture regain and avoidance and another that focuses on piercing attacks that interrupt and do solid posture damage.
  • Ashina Castle area is basically recycled twice, definitely hurt some of the momentum of the end-game for me.
  • Bull and Folding Monkeys - both interesting in concept with really poor execution. I feel like you have to totally go out of your way to do the Monkeys as intended.
  • 5 Headless is too many, and I don't think they're that great of a fight either, with or without confetti.
I've gone back and forth on Spirit Emblems being a consumable. I like that they add some light decision making, resource management and tension as numbers start to dwindle fighting a tough boss, but I don't know if those outweigh the player potentially being stingy with them, losing combat options and/or being pressured to grind if they do completely run out.

Fantastic game and my current GotY, but flawed for sure. None of these really bothered me that much to be honest. After all I'm replaying it and fighting everything again just because I like it that much, something I didn't do with the Souls games.
 
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matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
- The fucking camera. Jesus. Get backed up into a corner while parrying an enemy's combo string and at best it's going to crawl straight up Sekiro's bumcrack, and at worst it'll just unlock completely. Why is it allowed to unlock itself? Why is that a thing? If I ever want to unlock during a bossfight (and, for the record, I won't) I'll do it myself. Just, why would they program the lock-on so it can break?

- Performance on consoles is unacceptable. I played on an XB1X with a 120Hz TV, which Digital Foundry picked as the best console experience, and it was still awful. A game this punishingly difficult needs to hold up its end of the bargain with a stable framerate. Combined with my next point, the wildly varying framerate gives the game a really unreliable feel.

- General animation priority/input lag/input buffer/uncancellable animation stuff. Press R1 and it starts an animation that only makes contact half a second later. OK, you can get used to that, but in such a fast-paced game you get this feeling that the gameplay is happening after your inputs, which makes it very hard to react quickly to something with a very short telegraph. Sekiro's level of input buffering is just long enough that you don't have to worry about it most of the time. Sometimes you're just going to eat an attack head-on, though, because you were just beyond that window where you could cancel into a parry. I wish they'd chosen one way or the other whether they want to be high-commitment or let you cancel anything at any time.
 

ASilentProtagonist

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,866
I did really enjoy Sekiro, but it's not on the level of BB, DS1, DeS for me because of 3 main reasons.

1. Shocking lack of atmosphere (for the most part, unless it's apparition enemies headless, rin etc)

2. Repetitive use of bosses, and locations

3. Some missed opportunities with the story structure, and scenarios.
 

Bradford

terminus est
Member
Aug 12, 2018
5,423
False Monk, True Monk, and Owl Father are my favorite fights in the game, lol. They're all skill check bosses and test aptitude and understanding. They are far and away my favorite bosses. I didn't find Owl Father tedious because I was so engrossed in the fight. That being said, I smoked Sword Saint on my second try and I thought that Demon of Hatred as not a great fight -- That one is tedious. The strategy is simple, it just takes forever. The Headless are really the only minibosses I think are straight up lame and boring to fight and don't need to be in the game. Mostly because their rewards aren't even that useful by the time you get them, they require a rare drop to kill in a reasonable amount of time, and they have like 4 moves total and are just a constant attrition cycle.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
The game is supposed to be more story focused than soulsborne games but it did not feel like that at all beyond the fact that Sekiro talks and has more personal cutscenes.

This is in large part why I put it down Sunday, and haven't touched it since. I'll probably load it up later on today, but man... It falls into the "more is obviously better, right?" trap that a lot of games fall into. It's like, no, more isn't necessarily better, if it's just some random talk that could've come from a Kurosawa film 40 60 years ago.

By contrast, I think the SoulsBourne games work because they don't spell everything out, and the story isn't so cliched.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,099
-The camera is your worst enemy in some boss encounters
-The game does an absolutely terrible job at tutorializing the basic combat ebb and flow. Hanbei needs to be a tougher opponent to teach you what most of your encounters will be like.
-Up until your first shinobi kill, the game is entirely too punitive
-Idol placement is baffling and oddly paced/spaced
-Enemy A.I. with regard to stealth is absolutely boneheaded.
-Dragonrot isn't exploited as well as it could've been, even as a storytelling element.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,058
Definitely not as enjoyable as DMC 5

Yep.

My chief complaint was the camera, which tended to go nuts every time a boss would jump overhead or offscreen, which was often. Narrow corridors were a problem too.

There wasn't a whole lot of incentive to replay the game outside of multiple endings, as bosses didn't really change up their attacks and enemy placements were the same.

The economy was busted once you bought all of the prosthetic upgrades. Wish you could funnel Sen into experience or something.

A lot of combat arts were kind of useless. Mainly stuck to Ichimonji, like everyone else.

But overall it's really good and one of From's best games.
 

marvelharvey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
822
-The camera losing lock when you resurrect.
-The camera in tight spaces.
-Losing 50%xp/sen upon death. Whenever I found myself in a new exiting location, with a reasonable amount of XP, I'd return to the Hirate estate and grind and grind and grind to the next skill point. Why am I doing this? I don't want to be grinding, I want to be playing through the new exiting location I just found. but the potential XP loss forces me to constantly play safe.
-All the XP grinding generally going nowhere.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Detroit, MI
My problems with Sekiro is that the stealth is just brain dead and the AI is wildly inconsistent.

Sometimes it can't really decide what rules it want to play by either. Like part way through the game all of a sudden some bosses have hyper armor that also seems inconsistent. The final boss could eat attacks and sometimes they wouldn't.

The game can also be entirely too easy at times. Regular enemies are trivial outside of a few encounters late game and you can easily outrun the vast majority of them. In fact you can cheese a lot of scenarios in this game due to Sekiro's huge kit and lack of a stamina bar. It does result in some thrilling combat with boss encounters, but the normal enemy encounters suffer because of it and the mobility. Also adding to this giveth and taketh sway problem with sekiro is the emphasis on verticality. It created a similar problem with making the game a lot easier than the souls games. In those games every new area is usually threatening and you have to take your time to get accustomed to it.

So many combat arts are pointless. I used whirlwind strike for 90% of the game and ichimonji very late.

Also, the camera...

This might be my biggest issue with this game. I get the sense that it's the same camera they've used in the Soulsborne games but they didn't tweak it in a way that adheres to the new enhanced mobility of not only the player but the enemies as well. Sometimes the camera will break simply because it can't keep up with the enemy, or sekiro dodging, or both. Also when you get backed into a corner or an enemy or a piece of geometry in the world and go into near first person, you're pretty much fucked. Most of the time the camera is fine but in a game where death comes in only a few mistakes, it can be very costly.

That said it is a very good game and I like he it made me unlearn how I was approaching combat in the souls games.
 
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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,352
- The 50% XP/gold loss on death was a bad decision and drastically inferior to the bloodstain mechanic. If I arrive at a boss or an otherwise tough encounter, and my XP bar is at 50% or more, I'm just too enticed to go grind just to get the next skill point.
- Combat arts, outside of very few, are not that great. Agreed with OP fully here.
- Weak NG+ and unbalanced economy. Agreed with OP again. In NG, you can run low on gold to buy new cool things. In NG+, you have literally nothing else to spend your gold on yet gain tons of it, which means you can stack Divine Confetti like candy.
- The prosthetic tools upgrade tree was... weird. Each prosthetic should be upgraded individually IMO.

Despite all of that it's still going to be my GOTY easily. But yeah.

Common complaints that didn't bother me that much:
- The camera. Yeah, sometimes it's annoying. But it's like that in every From game or hell in every 3D action game really... :shrugs: Gotta deal. Avoid corners, disengage lock-on when needed, etc.
- Don't agree with the boss complaint in OP at all.
- Dragonrot is a throwaway mechanic, but it's also not a big deal. Just a slight disappointment.
- Demon of Hatred is an awesome boss and I'll die on that hill.

They need to stop doing variations of Dark Souls and try something completely, completely new (aside from VR shit). The game is good, but that's all I really have to say about it.
The game is nothing like Dark Souls outside of a bonfire/Estus system and an interconnected world. It's not even "Souls-like".
 

Bruceleeroy

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,381
Orange County
The grind for skill points is awful.

The game reuses too many bosses/mini bosses

Lack of content in general. Most of my playtime was just repeating boss fights rather than discovering new areas and dealing with that environment like in soulsborne games.

Somehow worse camera than previous games.

Terrible balancing of combat arts, prosthetics, and spirit emblems.

All the non boss beast enemies are way too easy

The game is supposed to be more story focused than soulsborne games but it did not feel like that at all beyond the fact that Sekiro talks and has more personal cutscenes.

Boss AI can be really buggy where it feels like its RNG whether they decide to spam their most dangerous attacks one after another.

The most complicated to get ending is very abrupt and not satisfactory at all.

and most important of all, no outfits without mods.

This is everything I wanted to say. Spot on


- The 50% XP/gold loss on death was a bad decision and drastically inferior to the bloodstain mechanic. If I arrive at a boss or an otherwise tough encounter, and my XP bar is at 50% or more, I'm just too enticed to go grind just to get the next skill point.
- Combat arts, outside of very few, are not that great. Agreed with OP fully here.
- Weak NG+ and unbalanced economy. Agreed with OP again. In NG, you can run low on gold to buy new cool things. In NG+, you have literally nothing else to spend your gold on yet gain tons of it, which means you can stack Divine Confetti like candy.
- The prosthetic tools upgrade tree was... weird. Each prosthetic should be upgraded individually IMO.

Despite all of that it's still going to be my GOTY easily. But yeah.

Common complaints that didn't bother me that much:
- The camera. Yeah, sometimes it's annoying. But it's like that in every From game or hell in every 3D action game really... :shrugs: Gotta deal. Avoid corners, disengage lock-on when needed, etc.
- Don't agree with the boss complaint in OP at all.
- Dragonrot is a throwaway mechanic, but it's also not a big deal. Just a slight disappointment.
- Demon of Hatred is an awesome boss and I'll die on that hill.


The game is nothing like Dark Souls outside of a bonfire/Estus system and an interconnected world. It's not even "Souls-like".

Haha god I hated that guy Morrigan
 

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
I liked Sekiro, and certain parts are amazing, but on the whole I don't even feel like playing it a second time. I'm just done. Every other Soulsborne game I immediately wanted to play again and again because I could experiment with different builds and main different weapons. Sekiro just doesn't have that.

I hope they return to Soulsborne in their next game, and keep a couple things from Sekiro -- Namely, the jumping. Keep jumping. Get rid of the parry/posture stuff or push it to the side though. I'm tired of clang clang and I want to chunk some beasts. What Sekiro achieved more than anything is making me want to go play Bloodborne yet again
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
To me Sekiro's biggest issue is combat variety. This wouldn't be as big a complaint if most of the combat offerings were actually useful. Instead, you're given a bunch of combat arts and prosthetic tools, and you have to discover for yourself that only around a quarter of them are more than gimmicky counters to individual enemies or specific attack types.

Sure, you could practice basic parrying and attacking until you know the enemies well. Then it's easy enough to work your different combat options in, dancing outside of the enemy's range until you have an opening, or slipping in an attack during one of their longer recovery animations. Or... You could rely on the stuff that works consistently, and is actually useful before you're so experienced with the game that enemies can't surprise you any more.

Sekiro has a balance problem. Ichimonji Double is by far the best combat art in game. It reliably stuns enemies (a rarity in Sekiro) and deals substantial health and posture damage -- while recovering your own posture bar. Other combat arts have long animations, fail to stun enemies, deal minor damage, or cost spirit emblems, which are the same ammo used by prosthetic arms.

The Firecracker arm is by far the most useful prosthetic. It can stun almost any enemy including bosses, and interrupt them too. Other arms are too specialized, cost too many emblems, take too long to activate, or work like an inferior version of Ichimonji. Only the upgraded shuriken arm and umbrella shield are a fraction as versatile and low-cost, and those both require skill tree investment and midgame upgrades to bring out their potential.

Do you like dying a lot? Well that's great, because Sekiro wants to kill you for trying new things. Its combat is unforgiving, we all know that. What's odd is that most of your combat options seem designed for a different game, one where enemies can't armor through most of your attacks, or end you in three hits or less when you're trying a new strategy. A game that lets you switch between multiple combat arts without going to a menu, and doesn't have a very small shared ammo pool for prosthetics, special combat arts, ninjutsu spells, and special items.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Sekiro might have been a better game if it gave the player fewer options. At least then you wouldn't waste your time trying to work your ammo-hungry poison dagger arm into combat, to pathetic effect, or waste loads of points on Ashina Cross when you could have bought Ichimonji Double or Shadowrush instead.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Yeah game has a bunch of problems and I'm glad it's being addressed instead of people just crying "get good!".

Camera is garbage, spirit emblems are poorly balanced, story was meh, Dragonrot is completely ignorable, economy is broken in NG+ onward, skill point grind is massive for little reward, no auto loot, etc.

I literally suck super hard at deflecting, and I think it's my age lol.
The timing is actually super generous on deflecting. Like wildly so. It's nothing like Metal Gear Rising or other games where it's split second timing. You just have to tap L1 (hold it down betwene taps if you want a safety block) within half a second or so of an attack landing. For enemy flurries it's nothing to do with reaction speed and just learning the rhythm of their attacks. The problem with deflecting is the feedback is just sparks, unless you break posture it doesn't stop them attacking. It's odd because the early miniboss Ogre's throw you have to dodge (not deflect) is like the fastest attack in the game which makes it seems like the game will get brutally fast, but it never really does.

My problem is my hands got sore from the poor control scheme and having to claw for camera control/looting. That's my age hurting gaming performance.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,352
I forgot to mention the Headless fights.

I just don't like them. They aren't very hard once you know what to do; pop a divine confetti, chug your Purple Gourd (and Healing as needed) every now and then, use Lilac Umbrella if you are in trouble. No problem, really.

Except it's just not fun. They're tedious and annoying. Just mash R1 (deflect a few times) until dead. They are atmospheric and creepy, and a cool concept, but I wish they had been more fun to fight. The mist that slows you down is also obnoxious.

Wasn't a big fan of the Shichimen Warriors either, but at least they were a little more interesting to fight, and made the Anti-Air Deathblow ability fairly useful. Still, kind of annoying and I skipped them on NG+ and later since there were no good drops. Whereas I re-fought most of the other mini-bosses because they were just plain fun.

I don't think they're even close to comparable in this regard. GoW had nine trolls and, if I recall ccorrectly, more than half of them were required to beat the game.
Agreed. God of War was an even worse offender than Nioh there. Sekiro's enemy/boss variety is fine IMO. A few mini-bosses repeat, but it's not that big of a deal.
 

JudgmentJay

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,220
Texas
Maybe it's because I've played thousands of hours of Souls games, but I did not find the camera in Sekiro to be bad in the slightest. It got me killed once maaaybe twice across the 80 hours I played. And it only got me because I panic dodged my way into a corner and forgot I had a jump button.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,102
I don't think they're even close to comparable in this regard. GoW had nine trolls and, if I recall ccorrectly, more than half of them were required to beat the game.
Additionally, the trolls popped up in some cases where you were expecting something cooler, and of course the series has a reputation for spectacular boss encounters, so GOW is gonna get more flak than other games for a similar offense due to player expectations.

I thought Sekiro's boss variety was adequate and that the designs did a decent job of covering the possibility space of the core combat. Some require constant pressure, some require consistent deflection, some require smart running around, some require good pattern recognition or reaction times. And the mini-bosses were fine with me too. There's some repetition there, but sometimes with a twist or an add-on enemy, and always worth fighting for the reward.

I also want to say about NG+, in contrast to how some people are saying it's not worth it because you can't try a different build, I thought it was immensely satisfying to see how much my skill had grown, completely dominating the early game that had proven the most difficult part the first time. (Of course massive stat upgrades played a part, but I'm still going to take most of the credit for being a murder factory.)
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,752
Its shortcomings are simple to me and all related to combat.

Combat in this game is too simple and restrictive. Almost all boss fights boil down to just deflecting and countering with your regular-ass attacks, and the use of most combat arts (not called Ichimonji) or prosthetic arms (not called fireworks) is usually ill-advised. ESPECIALLY the vast majority of combat arts, which can end up consuming a bunch of spirit emblems and end up doing fuck-all as far as vitality or posture damage, if they even manage to hit. I have no idea what's the point for so much of that shit, shit that by the way can take a fuck-ton of grinding to unlock. So their worthlessness is magnified even more greatly. The game essentially barrels you down its rather myopic and narrow combat design and actively discourages experimentation, else you'll quickly chow down through your emblem stash. Which you need to use prosthetic arms and some combat arts. And which cost money to acquire. And the game will rob you of half your money every single time you die, which you'll no doubt die countless of times.

I enjoyed this game a lot, but I do there was more useful versatility in how battles play out. The fact that I'm on my fifth playthrough despite having these misgivings speaks to the incredibly kinetic and highly satisfying nature of the core of Sekiro's combat. I just wish there was more options, and that those options were encouraged.


Stealth is also a little too simplistic in Sekiro I guess but I'm kinda fine with it since it's not really a stealth game, and what's there works well enough anyway.
I completely agree with your critique on combat. It made a lot of the fighting feel too repetitive because the strategies became repetitive. I don't know how I would have spiced it up, but it needed something more.

My other big critique has to do with combat also. I absolutely hate homing attacks. When a boss jumps in the air at me, I dodge, and they adjust in midair? Fucking frustrating.
 
Jul 20, 2018
2,684
Additionally, the trolls popped up in some cases where you were expecting something cooler.

I was SO mad when I found the Bridge Keeper of Helheim.

Anyway I should probably get to the thread topic instead of just criticising a different game. I didn't like that there was blood in the HA arena even before you fight GA. That seems like a pretty big oversight. I also would have preferred if Spirit Emblems refilled without having to be saved up.
 

Lunatious

Member
Dec 18, 2018
696
Getting a minor nitpick out of the way: it's disappointing that beating Genichiro on the intro nets you absolutely nothing. Even something like what Demon's Souls did by giving you a sneak peek into a future boss would've been nice.

For larger complaints, I'd say:

- Money loss wasn't very well balanced. You gained XP often enough to mitigate any major problems, but with most useful items being as expensive as they are and coin pouch stocks being very limited I found myself just spending money because it was better than losing it. I was only really able to earn and invest Sen properly during the endgame.

- Prosthetics' upgrade tree could've been more streamlined.

- Guardian Ape was an awful, awful boss. Very chaotic fight in a game all about rhythm. Most bosses had this point where the fight turned into a sort of dance between Wolf and his opponent - Guardian Ape at it's best is just finding ways of cheesing the fight.

- On the subject of Guardian Ape, it's rematch and other minibosses with additional enemies (like Juzou the Drunkard or the Ashina Spears rematch) felt very poor. The game is very clearly designed with focus on one opponent in mind and having to bait enemies out, execute them, and go back into stealth until you could have a proper 1v1 versus the boss was rather clunky.

- Combat arts are a neat idea but only some of them were good, and due to latency issues going out of a block into an attack or vice versa made Wolf get stuck in an animation. I had to unequip combat arts for the final boss because that happened a lot.

- Unclear visual elements at times. If flowers are obstructing my view it's very hard to make out whether I should jump over a sweep or Mikiri a stab. Different sound effects for perilous attacks would help immensely.

- While the early game has excellent level design, with the exception of Senpou Temple the midpoint doesn't play to the game's strengths. Sunken Valley and Ashina Depths don't have the verticality of Ashina Outskirts and Ashina Castle, nor the sandbox-like nature of Hirata Estate, and end up very forgettable as a result. Thankfully Fountainhead Palace and the endgame are excellently designed and pick the game back up.

Demon of Hatred is an awesome boss and I'll die on that hill.

Loved Demon of Hatred to death. Definitely my favorite boss of the game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,884
Las Vegas
I forgot to mention the Headless fights.

I just don't like them. They aren't very hard once you know what to do; pop a divine confetti, chug your Purple Gourd (and Healing as needed) every now and then, use Lilac Umbrella if you are in trouble. No problem, really.

Except it's just not fun. They're tedious and annoying. Just mash R1 (deflect a few times) until dead. They are atmospheric and creepy, and a cool concept, but I wish they had been more fun to fight. The mist that slows you down is also obnoxious.

Wasn't a big fan of the Shichimen Warriors either, but at least they were a little more interesting to fight, and made the Anti-Air Deathblow ability fairly useful. Still, kind of annoying and I skipped them on NG+ and later since there were no good drops. Whereas I re-fought most of the other mini-bosses because they were just plain fun.


Agreed. God of War was an even worse offender than Nioh there. Sekiro's enemy/boss variety is fine IMO. A few mini-bosses repeat, but it's not that big of a deal.

The headless were nice the first time. Since it was the first time you saw something completely paranormal in the game outside of generic foot soldiers.

But when you fight them the upteenth time (underwater might I add) I think I just checked out.
 

Bruceleeroy

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,381
Orange County
Would you say.... that you were consumed by the flames of hatred for this guy

hey where are you going~

Lol definitely haha.

THIS. and my other flaw is that its actually too easy.

giphy.gif
 

Noema

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,905
Mexico CIty
*My biggest (and pretty much only) gripe is lack of content.
There's only one optional area in the game, and even that gets reused. Out of the 13 bosses, 4 get reused (though at least Owl- Father is pretty different from Old Shinobi.) I feel that the game could've had at least one large area with two more unique bosses in it. I don't mind mini-boss being recycled since they mostly consist in challenges for specific aspects of your tool set, and they were often remixed in different circumstances so they usually felt fresh. It's not like the game is short by any means; it's just that I was left hungry for more because what we got is so good.
*There's absolutely no reason for you to lose lock-on on enemies when they are the only enemy on screen.

*The fact that clicking the right stick centers the camera if there are no enemies in the field of view that you can lock onto is infuriating and by far the most frustrating aspect of playing this, or any other, FromSoft game. It's a feature no one wants, and that objectively makes the game worse, since you'll often lose lock on (as mentioned above) and frantically trying to lock back onto whatever you're fighting will often result in the camera spinning all over the place, in a disorienting manner. Why we don't have an option to disable that baffles me. This has been an issue since freaking Demon's Souls.

* They got it right by literally copying and pasting the Estus Flask system from DS, but then they mess up by copying and pasting the Quicksilver Bullets from BB. Miyazaki why.

*Quick Items kinda suck. This game needs a 'belt' system like BB or DS3 where you could press the Touchpad and you would get five items for quick access without having to cycle through your quick items. Having to cycle through pellets, sugars, and the gourd is risky, takes your eyes off the screen and often ends up with you fogetting to cycle back to the gourd. Nioh does this much better since you can map a quick item shortcut to any direction on the d-pad, so could have, say 'up' be the gourd, 'left' be pellets, 'right' be a sugar, etc.

*Sugars (outside of Gachiin's Sugar, which is absolutely awesome) are good, but they have weird drawbacks. They take too long to cast and their duration is too short. The Devotion skill helps a bit, but it's still weird that they'd be so cumbersome to use. Either make them last longer like the resin's in Dark Souls, or make them shorter duration but instant application like the bundles in DS3 or paper in BB.

*Unseen Aid ends up being pretty much useless since there's no way of increasing the percentage. Even at 30% (the max) there's still a pretty big chance of losing half your XP if you die (and you'll die a lot to bosses). When you are in the tens of thousands XP, losing 50% of that hurts, so you end up in the awkward situation of having to grind XP until you get your next skill point.

*I understand why they wanted a set character with set abilities in order to balance the game and encounters in an specific manner, and I think that that paid of for the most part. But they know how much people value fashion souls. They could have added some cosmetic items here and there with no impact to gameplay that would go a long way. Just look at the burgeoning mod scene on PC for all sorts of cool and wacky outfits for Wolf.
 
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Ogawa-san

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,686
The headless were nice the first time. Since it was the first time you saw something completely paranormal in the game outside of generic foot soldiers.

But when you fight them the upteenth time (underwater might I add) I think I just checked out.
I braced for the worst of the worst, but ironically the underwater one was the least annoying. It's also liberating that you're not dying in a countdown until you're out of divine confetti.
 
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