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Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
11,225
Where do you think Trump voters and their ilk even go if we instantly switched to a communist society, I wonder?

Do you think people are static? Just because someone voted for Trump doesn't mean that they are completely incapable of change, yeah there are those who are but millions upon millions of people voted for Trump, they can and will be disenfranchised by Trump if he stays in power and they remain unhappy. That's why the presidency and congress repeatedly switch between the two parties.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Not in the least. For the same reasons "pure" capitalism could never work(and what we call crony capitalism is failing right now). Absolutes in either extreme would essentially lead to a complete collapse of social order due to attempting to take those societal viewpoints to their logical conclusion.

In the case of capitalism right now for example, "free markets" without sufficient safety regulation and intervention in the form of the state just means corporate oligopolies essentially dictating their own monopolies, making the concept of free markets itself completely fake. The concept of freedom essentially folds in on itself to the point of people denying others with no(or lesser) power their rights to that freedom.
 

Hierophant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Sydney
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/climate-change-capitalism-economy_us_5b87bf0ce4b0cf7b00326edc

"Trusting that the free market capitalist dynamics will get us there, that of course is not going to happen," report co-author Paavo Järvensivu, an academic who specializes in economics and culture at Bios, says in a phone call with HuffPost. Economies that rely on the power of markets, notes the report, don't even recognize the problem as they're too focused on short-term profits to take account of longer-term issues like climate change and environmental destruction.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
1,248
Yes.

Though what you have posted isn't how it works. There is a difference in payment, just no capitalist class or unnecessary poverty. Cheers.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Do you think people are static? Just because someone voted for Trump doesn't mean that they are completely incapable of change, yeah there are those who are but millions upon millions of people voted for Trump, they can and will be disenfranchised by Trump if he stays in power and they remain unhappy. That's why the presidency and congress repeatedly switch between the two parties.
The fear of the other that makes these types pop up throughout history is not gonna disappear no matter the system of government. Every time you think you get rid of it, people will find a way to bring it back. At the same time you have far right nationalists popping up everywhere in Europe because of all the browns that are "invading". The resentment of differences never goes away, it just finds new outlets.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
11,225
The fear of the other that makes these types pop up throughout history is not gonna disappear no matter the system of government. Every time you think you get rid of it, people will find a way to bring it back. At the same time you have far right nationalists popping up everywhere in Europe because of all the browns that are "invading". The resentment of differences never goes away, it just finds new outlets.

So, you agree that class conflict is inevitable as long as we have classes.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
Yes. But it would require sacrifice.
The lizards wont let go of their noose easily.

I think it would be an improvement over the current syste..
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
So, you agree that class conflict is inevitable as long as we have classes.
"Class" is just ANOTHER means of differentiation. People will find difference even where there is little difference. People resent people who are better educated than them, E.G. Brexit campaign's anti-"expert" campaigning. People resent people that are more famous than them, that are more popular than them. People will resent people that look different than them getting the same thing they think they deserve more. There will always be a hierarchy even without class or monetary concerns.
 
Jan 7, 2018
840
Davies, R. B., & Vadlamannati, K. C. (2013). A race to the bottom in labor standards? An empirical investigation. Journal of Development Economics, 103, 1-14.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jdeveco.2013.01.003
That seems to argue for the opposite of what Orayn claimed. He said that improving labor standards in developed countries meant nothing for the rest of the world, because then labor standards would stay low in the rest of the world and explotation would continue. I can't read the article, but from the abstract it seems to argue that there is a positive correlation between labor standard in countries (i.e. if labor standards improve in a place, they tend to go up everywhere else, if they become worse in a place, they tend to become worse everywhere).
 
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Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
11,225
"Classes" is just ANOTHER means of differentiation. People will find difference even where there is little difference. People resent people who are better educated than them, E.G. Brexit campaign's anti-"expert" campaigning. People resent people that are more famous than them, that are more popular than them. There will always be a hierarchy even without class or monetary concerns.

Those are divide and conquering tactics though, and I highly disagree with your belief that classes are merely "another mean of differentiation". Classes are not inherent, whereas your skin colour, sex, place of birth, etc. are. Classes refer to relationships between different groups of people and how they are treated.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Didnt humans interbreed with other hominids? thats why so many people today have neanderthal, denisovan, and other hominids dna?
The thought on that is they raped them as they were killing them off. Which is honestly very believable when rape and pillaging is a mainstay of human history.

Those are divide and conquering tactics though, and I highly disagree with your belief that classes are merely "another mean of differentiation". Classes are not inherent, whereas your skin colour, sex, place of birth, etc. are. Classes refer to relationships between different groups of people and how they are treated.
Classes are inevitable because even if class isn't based upon monetary income it'll be based on popularity, famousness, skill. Sex, skin color, place of birth, orientation etc. are also means that people use to differentiated, and divide themselves, you can see it now, you'll be able to see it 50 years from now. It sucks, but denying that's a thing is like saying "racism is only caused by class!"

People need a government structure to keep them from banishing the "other".
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
No because humans are shit.

Capitalism is at least predicated on the belief that humanity is trash, but it still needs to grow and change as humanity comes up with even more shitty humans.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,442
New York
Decrease the population by a LOT and put something inhuman in charge to force it to work and yeah, sure, why not.
Otherwise no, not a chance.
 

Mister X

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,081
No it ignores human nature and of course some are more equal than others... but something close, related to it might, if technology is up to point. Someting like a resource based economy from the zeitgeist movement is a possibilty. But this will only be possible if technology is up to a point where most people just do not have to work anymore and we're closer to this than I thought, automation and such will take care of it. One thing is sure, automation/technological evolution will put pressure on capitalism to change into something new. Let's hope it's something better.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Rest assured, climate change will not be fixed or solved under capitalism and that's a fact you cannot deny, I'd much rather move to a different system so I have a better chance of surviving the incoming climate disasters that will wreak their havoc upon the earth.

I mean the whole point of capitalism is unlimited growth and that's simply unsustainable for the entire planet.

I can and I will.

And no, that is not "the point" of capitalism. It has no point. It is a way of organising economic activity.

There are many different ways of managing a price based capitalistic system, and I would agree that some of the versions out there are unsustainable, but that is argued by economists all the time.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
11,225
The thought on that is they raped them as they were killing them off. Which is honestly very believable when rape and pillaging is a mainstay of human history.


Classes are inevitable because even if class isn't based upon monetary income it'll be based on popularity, famousness, skill. Sex, skin color, place of birth, orientation etc. are also means that people use to differentiated, and divide themselves, you can see it now, you'll be able to see it 50 years from now. It sucks, but denying that's a thing is like saying "racism is only caused by class!"

People need a government structure to keep them from banishing the "other".

OK, assuming you're correct, what do we do? Just lay down and accept it?
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
No. Communism is underpinned by the theory of historical materialism, which we've known to be complete bollocks since before Marx died .
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
Not in the least. For the same reasons "pure" capitalism could never work(and what we call crony capitalism is failing right now). Absolutes in either extreme would essentially lead to a complete collapse of social order due to attempting to take those societal viewpoints to their logical conclusion.

In the case of capitalism right now for example, "free markets" without sufficient safety regulation and intervention in the form of the state just means corporate oligopolies essentially dictating their own monopolies, making the concept of free markets itself completely fake. The concept of freedom essentially folds in on itself to the point of people denying others with no power their rights to that freedom.

That is hardly an ideological position taken in a vacuum though. Reduction of labor standards and removal of barriers to capital has historically been supported by the group that has an interest in it, namely the capitalist class and their managers. The labor movement which stood against those ideas was diverse in ideological position. It was not always primarily socialist. Sometimes it was made up of fascist collaborationists, in America it was made up of a substantial amount of racists.

Which is just to say that the issue is often framed as though there is this pure ideological battle occurring when it has more often been a real political and economic battle for rights or interests divorced from the purity of theorizing. I think discussing whether it "should" go one way or another is neglecting why it actually does. There has been research into why intensifying international competition was linked to the deterioration of organized labor, which contributed to the decline in labor standards and social safety nets across the developed world. It wasn't always the primary cause of course, like the aforementioned racism in America which contributed greatly to the labor movement shooting itself in the foot. But the point is that it wasn't hashed out in a reasonable discussion about the options. I think it was largely a political battle that at best promoted a form of rationalization of its policy for the well-intentioned. I'm not convinced, for instance, that even most Republicans fundamentally care about the big business policy line. It was like a technocratic cover for their more cherished racial and socially conservative positions that were becoming taboo to support as pure policy positions (segregation and such). Now we have moved into a phase where that is less necessary, as some of those particularly odious conservatives begin to feel comfortable just being psuedo-scientifically racist. On the internet you'll see more of those types actually suggest that the form of economic or political organization doesn't matter, it is strictly whether or not the racial makeup is sufficiently superior to make it work.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,660
The thing about Communism is, what to do with people who don't actually agree with it? Like, how to achieve communism democratically if most people don't want it? Wouldn't that make accomplishing it inherently authoritarian and antidemocratic and led to exactly the same thing that happened to the so-called communist governmnents of last century? How to do it even if most people do but a small minority don't? Should those people be allowed to spread their beliefs?

Yeah, thats what so many people either dont understand or willfully ignore, to bring about communism you need to either murder a lot of people that dont think bringing about communism is a good idea (genocide) or forcibly relocate them to re-education camps/forced labor camps were they cant slow down the way towards utopia.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
OK, assuming you're correct, what do we do? Just lay down and accept it?

Work toward Welfare Capitalism in the long term and improve current iterations of capitalism in the short term? It ain't perfect but imagining hundreds of millions of people coming together and evenly sharing their resources in peace is absolutely insane.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
Absolutely it could work. The problem is how you get there.

Marx-Leninism (or Bolshevism) came about because there was an understanding, possibly accurate, in socialist thought that Communism could not be achieved under the rules of liberal democracy, because reactionary forces would work within the democratic system to prevent the rise of socialism (as you've seen in the long back and forth struggle in the western democracies which are still no closer to eliminating massive inequality).

The problem is that if democracy is bad for achieving equality, dictatorship is so much worse, and Marx-Leninist dictatorship is no exception.

Communism failed for economic reasons, but the economics were bad because the politics were bad. Bolshevik/Maoist/Hoxhaist/Juche economics were designed first and foremost to serve the political power of the party hierarchy. Stalin's Collectivization and Industrialization plans were built to reinforce the power of the party and the power of his faction of the party in particular, by crushing nascent independence in the peasant class and reducing the power of rural areas in exchange for urban areas and industrial towns where the Bolsheviks had tighter control. Communism destroyed lives because the goal of ever moving to Communism was lost and the goal of perpetuating the Party took the fore.

George Orwell, himself a socialist, had a good grasp of this. 1984 showed a world where Socialism had come to mean "party power for its own sake" and where every aspect of the world had been rebuilt to perpetuate the power of the Parties of the different countries. Animal Farm showed a world where the Revolution was launched on the idea of equality but where the revolutionary vanguard class (the pigs) became a new class of feudal lords. This was a natural consequence of Bolshevism.

So why did they choose such a destructive and evil path? It could be partly that the kind of people who were attracted to revolutionary socialism in these countries were simply not benevolent people, hard men who would be harsh rulers and would take advantage of a system that gave them absolute power. But there was rhetoric behind it, there was a *necessity* to it, and it was because they believed that democracy with the participation of the exploiter classes would make the process of equality impossible.

Full Communism, in a kind of anarcho-syndicalist vision, would work based on how we know systems succeed. Successful countries are countries that empower more and larger parts of their population (like how England that had an effective parliament in 1600 grew to be a world leader while Spain who had a weak and toothless parliament in 1600 declined, or how the parts of the Americas that had slavery are poorer than the parts of the Americas who never had slavery). Anarcho-syndicalism is basically optimum empowerment: personal property but no private property. Every sector of society governs itself, and great prosperity would be unleashed under that.

Capitalism works because it creates incentives, it says you can work to accumulate capital, apply that capital smartly, and prosper knowing you'll reap the rewards of your capital investment and your work. But people who have only their work and no capital along with that are left behind inevitably (see Thomas Piketty's Capital for why: the rise of the middle class in the west in the 40s/50s/60s was a historical aberration created by labor shortages and capital destruction caused by World War II, and its slow division into haves and have nots since then is a return to form).

Now imagine if you were able to keep *all* of the returns of your work, except what might need to be redistributed to the less fortunate and to supply other public goods. It takes the incentivizing power of capitalism and extends it to *everyone*. Work more: get more, whatever your access to capital. Capital would be created by collective action.

But how do you get there in a world where reactionary forces don't want to surrender the fruits of their exploitation democratically? Through a long slow process of incrementalism? Through revolutionary action that *doesn't* fall to an Animal Farm style new aristocracy by ???

That's the big question.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Work toward Welfare Capitalism in the long term and improve current iterations of capitalism in the short term? It ain't perfect but imagining hundreds of millions of people coming together and evenly sharing their resources in peace is absolutely insane.

How are we going to get welfare capitalism in the long term if people are just selfish? They'd just always attack and cut down on it for their own interests.
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
Work toward Welfare Capitalism in the long term and improve current iterations of capitalism in the short term? It ain't perfect but imagining hundreds of millions of people coming together and evenly sharing their resources in peace is absolutely insane.

Sure, but the argument from socialists, particularly Marxists, is that it isn't a workable solution because (in short) capital has a tendency to concentrate, business cycles/crises disempower labor cyclically (see Engels' writings on what he thought were the deficiencies of trade unionism), and so in order to finally "overcome" the inherent issues with out of control capital vis-a-vis the constant dance between labor concessions and immiseration the capitalist class needs to be disempowered and democratization needs to occur.

This, of course, has nothing to do with climate change because nobody conceived of it as a problem back then. I think it clearly poses a real problem to socialist ideologues as well as capitalist ones. But the basic suggestion that there needs to be a change in the political/economic power dynamics to create lasting change was based on this notion of perpetual class conflict, which we still live with. Marx didn't suggest we evenly share resources, though.
 

Replicant

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Communism could not work. Socialism in its truest form wouldn't work either. Socialist ideas and programs can work if done correctly.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
How are we going to get welfare capitalism in the long term if people are just selfish? They'd just always attack and cut down on it for their own interests.
That's why government structure is necessary, is my point. Laws and regulations reign in greed and are layered upon over time while the capitalist economic system provides an outlet for greed. And I don't expect it to be a smooth or quick transition by any means, gotta boil that frog. Anarcho anything doesn't make any sense on a scale above a few dozen people.

Sure, but the argument from socialists, particularly Marxists, is that it isn't a workable solution because (in short) capital has a tendency to concentrate, business cycles/crises disempower labor cyclically (see Engels' writings on what he thought were the deficiencies of trade unionism), and so in order to finally "overcome" the inherent issues with out of control capital vis-a-vis the constant dance between labor concessions and immiseration the capitalist class needs to be disempowered and democratization needs to occur.

This, of course, has nothing to do with climate change because nobody conceived of it as a problem back then. I think it clearly poses a real problem to socialist ideologues as well as capitalist ones. But the basic suggestion that there needs to be a change in the political/economic power dynamics to create lasting change was based on this notion of perpetual class conflict, which we still live with. Marx didn't suggest we evenly share resources, though.

I'm aware of the flaws of capitalism. There are classes. The goal would be to get to the point where the upper classes may be far richer than the lower ones, but the lower ones still live in relative luxury. The alternative is either anarcho communism which would implode on itself on the scale of hundreds of million of people, democratic communism which would be inevitably dismantled by opposition parties(likely with a "they're taking my money and giving it to lazy browns" slogan with a hint of "Back in my day..."), or authoritarian communism which places far too much power in the hands of a few that will inevitably abuse it to make an oligarchy.
 

Deleted member 23212

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That's why government structure is necessary, is my point. Laws and regulations reign in greed and are layered upon over time while the capitalist economic system provides an outlet for greed. And I don't expect it to be a smooth or quick transition by any means, gotta boil that frog. Anarcho anything doesn't make any sense on a scale above a few dozen people..

The government isn't some impersonal entity, it is composed of people. The government functions to advance and serve the interests of those who beenfit from it, I don't know how you expect the transition to occur or what it would look like.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
The government isn't some impersonal entity, it is composed of people. The government functions to advance and serve the interests of those who beenfit from it, I don't know how you expect the transition to occur or what it would look like.
You're right, it isn't impersonal. Which is exactly why I don't think communism would work. I would expect any transition to full welfare capitalism to occur over a century, gradually getting better with some pullbacks. Not in the next few decades. Even under Trump, the U.S. is far more regulated than it was a decade ago. Progress is slow and steady.
 

Deleted member 23212

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You're right, it isn't impersonal. Which is exactly why I don't think communism would work. I would expect any transition to full welfare capitalism to occur over a century, gradually getting better with some pullbacks. Not in the next few decades. Even under Trump, the U.S. is far more regulated than it was a decade ago. Progress is slow and steady.

What is communism? I am curious what your view it to be.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
What is communism? I am curious what your view it to be.
A system in which all property is publicly owned and people are paid according to the work they do and their needs. Centralized communism would make the "public" part the government, anarcho communism would simply have people divding the resources amongst themselves. A redistribution of wealth would be required to make it a reality, and some entity would have to be in charge of that redistribution, such an entity is more likely to seize power for itself than anything.
 

Wamb0wneD

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Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Nope, I think social capitalism could work. Problem is globalism makes every country compete with each other at a faster and faster pace, and if you want to be competitive you have to lower your working rights- and wage standards to the competitor with the lowerst ones. It's a race to the bottom you can't really fight against because it's happening on such a global scale with a very complex system of issues and no world leader you could threaten to behead french revolution style if they don't stop this.
 

Deleted member 23212

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A system in which all property is publicly owned and people are paid according to the work they do and their needs. Centralized communism would make the "public" part the government, anarcho communism would simply have people divding the resources amongst themselves. A redistribution of wealth would be required to make it a reality, and some entity would have to be in charge of that redistribution, such an entity is more likely to seize power for itself than anything.

It sounds like you're thinking of the vanguard regimes.
 

Replicant

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I'm curious as to what you consider communism and socialism to be.
Commmunism on its truest form just gives the working class the power that corporations we see capitalism have. Everything is publically shared and owned. However human nature would get in the way. Someone is always going to take advantage where they see fit. Class warfare will eventually arise.

Socalism to me just means, that every person has a basic right and access to things a person needs to live a successful and productive life. Healthcare, education, sometimes a basic income. And it's run through a government and is paid for in taxes. Classes will still exist. The wealthy will pay a bigger portion, but not disproportionately enough to affect that wealth.
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
The goal would be to get to the point where the upper classes may be far richer than the lower ones, but the lower ones still live in relative luxury.

Why is that the goal and not the removal of the far richer class in favor of an even smaller distribution with greater democratic control? We don't have a definite idea of the distribution, Marx acknowledged the distribution would exist in the transition phase, which realistically is the only thing I'd even consider in regards to Marxist conceptions of socialism because "communism" as described is just an idealized state of affairs that is far removed from any experience we have right now.

The alternative is either anarcho communism which would implode on itself on the scale of hundreds of million of people, democratic communism which would be inevitably dismantled by opposition parties, or authoritarian communism which places far too much power in the hands of a few that will inevitably abuse it to make an oligarchy.

All of these seem too simple though. I wouldn't want to comment too much on anarcho communism because that also seems highly idealized to me, but "democratic communism" is very much not the norm, and where it has occurred that socialist parties have been elected they range from instituting social democratic reforms to being coup'd or devolving into chaos (venezuela). But it is usually the case that socialist parties elected in the developed countries exhibit stable social democratic characteristics, whereas in the developing world you see the coups and chaos. I think like Cochaloc pointed out that we have different examples of the historical development of socialist parties and institutions. I just don't see why it has been proven that "democratic communism" in countries with more stable institutions would devolve into something terrible.

I don't think many in the west favor authoritarianism, but authoritarian capitalism also presents itself as an alternative to democratic capitalism. I don't think either ideology lays claim to that political form, and non-democratic capitalist states have proven to be capable of enviable growth and social cohesion.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Ok then, what do you see communism as? Enlighten me.

Communism for one doesn't have a state (anarcho-communism does not refer to "communism without a state", it refers to the way towards reaching the goal of communism). Also, it's not that all property is publically owned, personal property would still exist, it's that private property would not exist, in so that if you do all the labour yourself you are entitled to the complete fruits of your labour, whereas if you rely on other people's aid everyone would share the fruits of the labour. A redistribution of wealth would be necessary, yes, but not in the way that it would have to repeatedly re-distributed, instead the exploitative working practices that rob the workers of their labour would be eliminated. Communism would also not involve people being "paid", as communism is not wage labour based.

Of course, I could be wrong, as what "communism" actually is can vary based on who you ask and the desires of the people asked. What is most important though is that we need to focus first and foremost on the working class and their exploitation. Capitalism is bad because it exploits workers and it is unsustainable because it requires constant growth, which both inevitably lead to conflicts. That is what is essential to communism, either we continue the path of continued conflicts or we eliminate the root of it all together. Do I think it will happen? No, especially with how quickly our environment is getting destroyed. Can it happen though? Yes, I'd say that it can, and while we need to remain aware of the likelihood, that possibility necessitates that we at least try.

Edit: by the way I'm only speaking for myself here, if you want other people's opinions you'll have to ask them.
 
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Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,579
Not only can it work, it's our future.
I_disagree_we_must_go_to_a_fully_automated_luxury__5e6466d8e77bc2391f2ad4829ab03c0d.jpg


Seriously though, in the general sense of "the population owns the means of production", communism is a must imo as we get closer to completely automated industries. There are definitely problems we need to solve, but capitalism isn't going to work very well when jobs start getting really scarce.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I only believe in anarcho-communism. State communism feels like it will inevitably lead to disaster every time

It only works on a very small scale. It does not scale because people like individuality and are generally self interested.
I think the self-interest thing is overstated to the point of being a myth. Humans are very good at working in cooperative communities when we're not being inundated with violence.
 

PSqueak

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Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Every system is corruptible, and the basis of communism to work AS INTENDED requires a hypothetical community of incorruptible people, but because humans are evil fucks in general, true communism cannot be achieved, the most we can hope for would be a severely watered down version of capitalism with less wealth inequality.
 

kittens

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Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I think you can only believe in communism if you believe people can be good. And if you believe people can be good... how can you not believe in communism? Like, why would you want anything less?
 

Deleted member 6230

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The "human nature" meme is kinda silly. Kinda crazy it's being repeated endlessly throughout the discussion.
 

Deleted member 1635

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No, not as long as people have ambition (or lack of it).

Furthermore, and probably more importantly, but it can never work as long as scarcity of resources is a thing.