Do u think communism could actually work

[Deleted member 24118]

Yes Marx's teleological tendencies are his biggest problem. This isn't a groundbreaking assertion.

This is the lazy induction I'm talking about. History doesn't show anything as evidenced by people making the exact same arguments against democracy in the early modern period.

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It's more than "teleological tendencies," it's that the absolute core of his concept of the rise of communism was completely off. Which is fine, whatever, but if your argument is that only a 1:1 adaptation of Marx is Real Communism then you're just delving further into "My ideaology only fails when you bring it into the real world" territory.

What an incredibly reductionist strawman. Everyone with a brain has some problems with Marx, but acting like one of the greatest social thinkers we have and an absolutely seminal fogufi in the social sciences is only paid attention to because he is cool is obviously absurd and smacks of contrarianism.

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We aren't talking about Marx's entire body of work, we're talking specifically about his ideal of communism and its practicality in the real world. Which is quite ironic given communists could find a better role model in Bakunin who history has proven right in many respects, but instead they hitch their horse to Marx's constrained definition which has been undermined at every turn. Why this is is beyond me!

 

[blinky]

It resulted in mass murder literally every time it's been tried. But sure, it'll probably go off without a hitch the next time.

 

[Moff]

not with humans

 

[Vela]

Anything is better than this hellhole of capitalism that we've been suffering under for the last 400 years. Add to the fact that capitalism is what also gave us colonialism and white supremacy, and contemporary imperialism with its millions of lives to its name, then the issue most important to us all is the ensure the complete dismantlement and destruction of capitalism and the overthrow of the ruling classes as soon possible.

If you're not anticapitalist, then you are defending the continuing exploitation and murder of people across the world, and ultimately the destruction of civilization within the next 100 years.

 

[Lopy]

No

 

[TwntyOneTwlv]

 

[blinky]

Anything is better than this hellhole of capitalism that we've been suffering under for the last 400 years.

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You should compare living standards today to living standards in 1618.

 

[Snack12367]

Contrasting Utilitarianism with Capitalism is utterly bizzare. Lockean liberalism is deontological but Bentham and Mill are both more sophisticated liberal figures and also ones that could hardly be understood to be somehow worse in general.

This is ignoring your rather bizzare attempt to find deontological approaches better than utilitarian ones based on utilitarian value judgements (not to mention more poor induction).

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I don't think I came out either for or against either in that post. I recognised the infamy of one, while also pointing out why and explaining why the other seems to get a pass.

 

[Kirblar]

Anything is better than this hellhole of capitalism that we've been suffering under for the last 400 years. Add to the fact that capitalism is what also gave us colonialism and white supremacy, and contemporary imperialism with its millions of lives to its name, then the issue most important to us all is the ensure the complete dismantlement and destruction of capitalism and the overthrow of the ruling classes as soon possible.

If you're not anticapitalist, then you are defending the continuing exploitation and murder of people across the world, and ultimately the destruction of civilization within the next 100 years.

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You really want to go back to feudalism?

 

[gutter_trash]

Mass killings under communist regimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

the amount of non-combatant deaths is insanely high

 

[phonicjoy]

Anything is better than this hellhole of capitalism that we've been suffering under for the last 400 years. Add to the fact that capitalism is what also gave us colonialism and white supremacy, and contemporary imperialism with its millions of lives to its name, then the issue most important to us all is the ensure the complete dismantlement and destruction of capitalism and the overthrow of the ruling classes as soon possible.

If you're not anticapitalist, then you are defending the continuing exploitation and murder of people across the world, and ultimately the destruction of civilization within the next 100 years.

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Thats a fucking ridiculous post and you should really not sling shit at a large portion of the community here. I'm guessing you're an American, so you don't know how social democracy can actually work in a capitalist framework, otherwise I can't imagine how you could be so dense.

Capitalism as a market mechanism is the most efficient way of distributing scarce resources we can practically institute right now. Thats all it is. A mechanism. Don't confuse that with the fact that the US cant seem to put together functioning regulations.

See how I didn't call YOU a murderous asshole?

 

[sphagnum]

Been discussing this w my s/o and she thinks a revolution would work but I think human nature says otherwise.

Basically I feel like if u take 20 random ppl and have a 1 apple a day limit, one of them will take more than 1. Ofc this isn't real world but just an example.

I could even see some mothafuckas on this site sneaking an extra apple. Not TI92 but someone else.

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Can you describe what you think communism actually is?

 

[Deleted member 5167]

Anything is better than this hellhole of capitalism that we've been suffering under for the last 400 years. Add to the fact that capitalism is what also gave us colonialism and white supremacy, and contemporary imperialism with its millions of lives to its name, then the issue most important to us all is the ensure the complete dismantlement and destruction of capitalism and the overthrow of the ruling classes as soon possible.

If you're not anticapitalist, then you are defending the continuing exploitation and murder of people across the world, and ultimately the destruction of civilization within the next 100 years.

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So everything went to shit with the Enlightenment?

Bold strategy Cotton.

 

[Dyle]

The thing that erode communist governments is only slightly different from the things that erode capitalist governments. As long as the government isn't fulfilling the needs of its citizens, its power will slowly but steadily diminish. If a communist government was able to keep its people fed and warm there would be far less risk of rebellion and failure. The main weakness that communist governments have is that all systemic failures come back to the government, where in a capitalist society the blame is shared between the government and numerous independent corporations and organizations, who can effectively collectively shield themselves from mass change. If all the frustration of society is directed at a single entity it's doomed to fail. There are absolutely situations where it could sustainably work, but it would require the country to be so stable and well-off that it's unlikely those people would even move towards communism in the first place.

 

[nel e nel]

Funny, I actually mentioned this. Robots taking care of mundane tasks really would solve a lot of the problems. I wonder if this could cause any other issues down the line.

Has anyone made a movie about this

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Yes, it's called The Matrix.

 

[daveo42]

No. Communism already failed. I'm under the opinion that most socioeconomic models tend to fail thanks to human greed. Capitalism and the Free Market would work better if was focused more on consumers (the actual drivers of a consumption-based economy) as opposed to the bottom line for corporations and the rich.

 

[chezzymann]

No, unless theres some sort of morally perfect AI that everyone likes that becomes the leader.

whilst china has some appalling human rights records, it has also lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty over the last 30 or so years.

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And what happens when things start getting worse? Cant get rid of their dictator now.

 

[The Almighty Tria]

It's a good idea that will never ever work (and never has) due to human nature.

 

[lukeskymac]

Can we try this thread again once people actually know what communism is, thanks.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It works really well at murdering and starving people.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

Nothing works.

The flaw is people.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Anything can work. It's more a matter of "will it?".

Because your example of someone taking more than 1 apple despite an agreement to only have a 1 apple limit is exactly the problem with communism. Similarly, I, and I expect even the most devout commies here, like the freedoms and liberties we have.like buying better phones and technology and so on.


Ideally, we'd have a combination of the two, because while communism leads to stagnation, we ideally want the freedoms of capitalism, with the "safety net" of Communism. For example, universal healthcare in the UK. You can get better healthcare if you can afford it, but you always have the NHS if you can't.

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This. Well said and true. A mixed system is and will always be the best (I.e., welfare state capitalism with a science-driven industrial policy).

 

[Opto]

I think that communism is the end goal of humanity in order to survive as a united front against violent weather. Can we get there from here? I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Deleted member 4413]

Possibly some day. Communism would be the perfect system if humans were not so flawed.

Best bet at a good system in 2018 is a democratic socialist/capitalist hybrid. Unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

Maybe we should make a thread asking people what communism is first to see just what the responses are.

 

[Orayn]

Welfare state capitalism is still 100% fueled by sweatshops and near slave labor elsewhere in the world, it sucks too.

 

[RadzPrower]

No.

Human nature will never allow any system to truly work. Some person, organization, or class will always assume power and abuse said power for their own benefit. Whether that is capitalism, socialism, or communism, it can and will be abused.

 

[Window]

I didn't realise utilitarianism could be associated with Communism. I suppose it kinda makes sense. I've usually seen it linked to neoclassical economics and accompanying justification of the free market.

 

[Panic Freak]

I think communism works in small communities. The organization that is required to run a country naturally creates a caste system that causes the system to fall apart.

 

[NoReasonReally]

The thing about Communism is, what to do with people who don't actually agree with it? Like, how to achieve communism democratically if most people don't want it? Wouldn't that make accomplishing it inherently authoritarian and antidemocratic and led to exactly the same thing that happened to the so-called communist governmnents of last century? How to do it even if most people do but a small minority don't? Should those people be allowed to spread their beliefs?

It's fine and all to come to those threads and say people don't actually know what true communism is, or call their "human-nature" arguments shallow, which IMO they actually are, but those are real problems an actual communist government would have to face. How to keep equality without being authoritarian?

 

[Bonafide]

Welfare state capitalism is still 100% fueled by sweatshops and near slave labor elsewhere in the world, it sucks too.

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I just don't get it at this point. We'll literally have multiple topics after this on the ills of capitalism, the exploition of the worker class internationally, the capture and corrosion of all public institutions leading into the slow creep into fascism.

And its always "its the best system" some weird reference to "human nature", etc.

 

[Deleted member 24118]

Anything is better than this hellhole of capitalism that we've been suffering under for the last 400 years. Add to the fact that capitalism is what also gave us colonialism and white supremacy, and contemporary imperialism with its millions of lives to its name, then the issue most important to us all is the ensure the complete dismantlement and destruction of capitalism and the overthrow of the ruling classes as soon possible.

If you're not anticapitalist, then you are defending the continuing exploitation and murder of people across the world, and ultimately the destruction of civilization within the next 100 years.

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According to Marx capitalism came about in the 16th and 17th centuries largely as a result of colonialism:

"There is no doubt — and it is precisely this fact which has led to wholly erroneous conceptions — that in the 16th and 17th centuries the great revolutions, which took place in commerce with the geographical discoveries and speeded the development of merchant's capital, constitute one of the principal elements in furthering the transition from feudal to capitalist mode of production. The sudden expansion of the world-market, the multiplication of circulating commodities, the competitive zeal of the European nations to possess themselves of the products of Asia and the treasures of America, and the colonial system — all contributed materially toward destroying the feudal fetters on production."

I'll let you decide whether that's an historically accurate definition of "capitalism" though.

The thing about Communism is, what to do with people who don't actually agree with it? Like, how to achieve communism democratically if most people don't want it? Wouldn't that make accomplishing it inherently authoritarian and antidemocratic and led to exactly the same thing that happened to the so-called communist governmnents of last century? How to do it even if most people do but a small minority don't? Should those people be allowed to spread their beliefs?

It's fine and all to come to those threads and say people don't actually know what true communism is, or call their "human-nature" arguments shallow, which IMO they actually are, but those are real problems an actual communist government would have to face. How to keep equality without being authoritarian?

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It's the gulags for you pal!

 

[Siggy-P]

Welfare state capitalism is still 100% fueled by sweatshops and near slave labor elsewhere in the world, it sucks too.

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Sweatshops and slave labour is in no way a mandatory mechanic of welfare state capitalism and heavy regulation does prevent that sort of practice, but sure...

 

[travisbickle]

Yeah, at some point in the future, like a Star Trek future.

We're in like the middle-ages of economics though, still using slavery with countries run by dynasties, and we wonder why an economic theory of equality didn't sit well.

 

[quesalupa]

That's a big negative. And even if it did "work," it would be holding back a ton of innovation.

 

[anthro]

Sweatshops and slave labour is in no way a mandatory mechanic of welfare state capitalism and heavy regulation does prevent that sort of practice, but sure...

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Yeah, I think the argument is usually the opposite. Social democracy was built by labor organizing which eventually brought a truce with capital through social services, labor standards and the safety net. Globalization saw labor power erode as many businesses just shipped off to overseas labor that couldn't be organized effectively on an international basis. Labor power deteriorated and capital started attacking the safety nets, wages, labor standards, etc.

At least, that is the kind of analysis put forward by people like Robert Brenner.

 

[Orayn]

Sweatshops and slave labour is in no way a mandatory mechanic of welfare state capitalism and heavy regulation does prevent that sort of practice, but sure...

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Welfare capitalism with the expectation that people will be able to keep up their current consumer habits requires exploitation exported to somewhere else, even if local regulations are better.

 

[Masoyama]

I think what would surprise people is how meritocratic and stressful living in a communist society would be. In a capitalistic system you are roughly born into a caste/class and unless you get lucky or fuck up that's where you will die, as long as you do what is required of you, your success in life has upper and lower bounds. This has a compound effect of making people lazier because some know they cannot break through a certain roof and others comfortable in their bank account and coasting. Communism is not like that at all, there is a real possibility of really making something of out nothing and people take advantage of it. Society is a pyramid, being better at something - sports, politics, whatever- gets you recognition and success from an early age.

People truly dedicate their life to the fight, people hustle and come up with new ideas or new concepts. This leads to people taking advantage of the rubric, of course, and the system has to be constantly revised, but the though of communism leading to a stagnation of innovation is high-school level logic.

 

[NoReasonReally]

Welfare capitalism with the expectation that people will be able to keep up their current consumer habits requires exploitation exported to somewhere else, even if local regulations are better.

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I'm curious about this. Is there any serious study that points out to this?

 

[jackissocool]

yes

 

[Gunny T Highway]

Forms of Socialism can, Communism cannot.

 

[ScandiNavy]

Not with human beings in any authoritative role.

Yes. If we fully embraced AI and let them control everything.

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Yes, so long as it's not humans in charge. Humans will fuck up any system due to greed and lust for power.

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Beaten thoroughly.

 

[BocoDragon]

Imagine if we experimented with this doctrine as a human race for an entire century, it ended as an atrocious disaster, and people still ask this question as if it's a hyoothetical.

 

[Wez]

No, and I'm not sure why you would want it to work

 

[blinky]

I think what would surprise people is how meritocratic and stressful living in a communist society would be. In a capitalistic system you are roughly born into a caste/class and unless you get lucky or fuck up that's where you will die, as long as you do what is required of you, your success in life has upper and lower bounds. This has a compound effect of making people lazier because some know they cannot break through a certain roof and others comfortable in their bank account and coasting. Communism is not like that at all, there is a real possibility of really making something of out nothing and people take advantage of it. Society is a pyramid, being better at something - sports, politics, whatever- gets you recognition and success from an early age.

People truly dedicate their life to the fight, people hustle and come up with new ideas or new concepts. This leads to people taking advantage of the rubric, of course, and the system has to be constantly revised, but the though of communism leading to a stagnation of innovation is high-school level logic.

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Also, people get sent to labor camps if they step out of line. That tends to keep folks on their toes as well.

 

[Slim]

Nope, communism ain't gonna work.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

idk But capitalism is fucking us up and the planet up big time right now. The current system needs serious reforms or it needs to be completely dismantled before we all die.

 

[Siggy-P]

Welfare capitalism with the expectation that people will be able to keep up their current consumer habits requires exploitation exported to somewhere else, even if local regulations are better.

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At what point did I say they'd be expected to keep up their current consumer habits?

I'm advocating a heavily regulated free market with a communist-lite safety net.

 

[Juj]

fully automated luxury communism maybe

edit: capitalism is killing our planet, so we need to find something else or repair it, and quick tho

 

[Masoyama]

Also, people get sent to labor camps if they step out of line. That tends to keep folks on their toes as well.

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That is not isolated to communism. People that grew up in Latin America - like me - still have the memory of the disappearances caused by right wing dictatorships.