• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Do you believe in a higher power?

  • Yes

    Votes: 403 21.9%
  • No

    Votes: 1,153 62.5%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 288 15.6%

  • Total voters
    1,844

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,141
As i said, the existance of God is not provable (unless God himself would change something about that).


How exactly would you attempt to do this? Also:
1. not all humans
2. not necessarily from the very start of their life
You say it's not provable but you're making some very specific statements that have to have been proven somehow:

How exactly would you attempt to do this? Also:
1. not all humans
2. not necessarily from the very start of their life

The bolded implies you can detect or acknowledge it. How does one know if they are "programmed" by God? That statement implies you can prove it or else everyone is just making it up.

I don't know where you have your eyes and ears directed at in this world, but there are many people that would claim to you that God has answered their prayers, also with some sort of physical footprint within their individual existance.

They can claim God has answered their prayers but it's not certain. If someone claims God has answered them then there'd be some kind of evidence. A coincidence isn't evidence.
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
If God exists how come there isn't any physical evidence of this being?

Philosophical conceptions of God are typically that God is some kind of universal ground of being. Plotinus characterized God as pure and infinite potency or potentiality, with all of being then seen to issue from this potentiality. Spinoza's supposedly pantheistic conception of God is pretty close to that idea, too. And Lonergan characterized the God of the philosophers as 'pure intellect intellectualizing itself'. The problem in my opinion with these conceptions isn't that they lack empirical evidence, because these conceptions are only meant to serve as notions (a claim like 'if God exists, it seems apparent that it must be something like this'). I think the fundamental problems with these conceptions is that they appeal to an implicit essentialism that is perhaps a part of our thinking, but not a part of the world.

That is, discursive thought depends on clear boundaries or dichotomies that don't actually seem to exist in the world. An example would be if we look at the evolutionary history of an animal, and ask at what precise moment did that species come into being? When we ask that we find that we can't say, because there isn't really a clear 'essence' of what makes, say, a rabbit a rabbit. Even though a rabbit is supposed to be a clear and explicit object, we can fudge a lot of the features of a rabbit and still get something that we'd recognize as a rabbit. With the universe we could ask the same question, is there some fundamental and substantial 'thingness' (or essence) supporting everything, or is it more of a generative process that isn't subject to ready apprehension as a clear object with precise boundaries? If it's the latter, and there's no central or essential core of being that makes being being, then a conception of a 'ground of being' (and thus God) doesn't really make sense.
 

Deleted member 18347

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,572
There may or may not be some super controller. Definitely not the shitty man-made versions though that's for sure.

Without tangible evidence it's just a waste of time to think too much about.
 

ninjabot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
734
The existance of God is not provable.
No line of thoughts can possible end up at the absolute certainty of Gods existance.
If you possess absolute certainty of Gods existance, then that is because God himself just defined it to be so.
No other reason is possible and thus the absolute certainty of Gods existance is never acceptable to anyone who doesn't possess it him/herself.
And so all arguing is pointless.

This is a peculiar way of saying "You won't believe in God until he reveals himself". In that case, then you concede that if we end up burning in hell because we waited our entire lives for this revelation, it's God's fault for either not caring to reveal himself, or not having the capacity to do so.

And I know the response to this will be "Maybe he's tried to reveal himself to you but you were too dumb to recognize it?"

To which I reply: "Then he's not really omniscient, because he'd have known that attempt would fail and would've chosen a better means to convince me. Still his fault."
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
The only test to prove if god is real that I can think of is if we all collectively agreed to destroy all bibles, Qurans, and other major religious text and make sure no one even dares memorize any portion or save any portion in any form. If god is real surely he would reappear and send us more bibles. If not that religion is gone for ever.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,022
The only test to prove if god is real that I can think of is if we all collectively agreed to destroy all bibles, Qurans, and other major religious text and make sure no one even dares memorize any portion or save any portion in any form. If god is real surely he would reappear and send us more bibles. If not that religion is gone for ever.

well, maybe they would just say "fuck Humanity" after that, haha.

I'd love if the "real" god was from some forgotten religion no one cares about anymore.

Or a God that saves Atheists but the people that believe in fake ass gods go to hell.

There's a lot of fun to have when there is no evidence for any god.
 
Last edited:

leenbzoold

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,558
A coincidence isn't evidence.
To regard one coincidence as evidence is often regarded as foolish, but in general, in natural sciences (so not math) all evidences are in fact a very large (and thusby very convincing to a large number of individuals) pile of coincidences.
This has to be said, since we as individuals can't ever possibly achieve true objectivity.
Not that this would be important for our discussion though. I didn't mean to imply that literally all people claiming for God to have answered their prayers are correct about it.

The bolded implies you can detect or acknowledge it.
That is because i missed to put in another keyword. "not necessarily all humans"
So it is not a statement, but a reminder, because when you said this
If humans were programmed to believe in God
i thought i needed to make sure that you don't assume that it necessarily would have to be all humans throughout all their lifetime.
But i guess i didn't.

How does one know if they are "programmed" by God?
Because they are programmed to "know". They can't ever assume anything else. I can't ever assume anything else. It's just there. And it doesn't decay. Because God refreshes it.

Now my point is, that those who have been programmed might accept anything as evidence for Gods existance.
And those who haven't been programmed will not ever accept anything as evidence for Gods existance.
(And theoretically, discussion between these groups about Gods existance is allways pointless)

To which I reply: "Then he's not really omniscient, because he'd have known that attempt would fail and would've chosen a better means to convince me. Still his fault."
You can reply that, but, according to what i know, it won't save you.
Not that i'd really know what your individual future is, it's not on me.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,315
Nashville
well, maybe they would just say "fuck Humanity" after that, haha.

I'd love if the "real" god was from some forgotten religion no one cares about anyone.

Or a God that saves Atheists but the people that believe in fake ass gods go to hell.

There's a lot of fun to have when there is no evidence for any god.
I mean I can understand not believing in a higher power(with evidence to prove the lack of and all that), but your just sounding flat out hateful and stooping to the level of religious fundamentalist with that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,142
Sure do. I think "god" created the universe and is just sitting there watching shit unfold, taking notes, and will decide at the end if it was a good idea, bad idea, what went wrong, what went right, and/or what formulas should be changed for the next round.
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
To regard one coincidence as evidence is often regarded as foolish, but in general, in natural sciences (so not math) all evidences are in fact a very large (and thusby very convincing to a large number of individuals) pile of coincidences.
This has to be said, since we as individuals can't ever possibly achieve true objectivity.

This is the entire idea behind science and the scientific method and why it has reliably brought us insights since its popularization.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Again, either life is a result of a higher instance or the end of many not determined events.

his post wasn't about life being the result of the existence of a higher power. It was a higher power existing vs many not determined events of amino acids coming together to create life

he said he believes in a higher power because the alternative is amino acids coming together unguided to make life

thats a false dichotomy

EDIT: wait a minute am i stupid

why have i been missing this this whole time

the alternative to a higher power existing MUST be that the amino acids came together by themselves,

what the hell was i going on about this whole time, why was i missing something so obvious, it was staring me in the face this entire convo

im not entirely sure if its a true dichotomy or not, but that doesn't even matter because he never claimed it was, his wording is perfectly fine

i dunno why i had so much trouble with this, it literally doesn't get any simpler than this

you were 100% right when you said it wasn't a bifurcation fallacy
 
Last edited:

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,141
To regard one coincidence as evidence is often regarded as foolish, but in general, in natural sciences (so not math) all evidences are in fact a very large (and thusby very convincing to a large number of individuals) pile of coincidences.
This has to be said, since we as individuals can't ever possibly achieve true objectivity.
Not that this would be important for our discussion though. I didn't mean to imply that literally all people claiming for God to have answered their prayers are correct about it.
That's not evidence.

That is because i missed to put in another keyword. "not necessarily all humans"
So it is not a statement, but a reminder, because when you said this


i thought i needed to make sure that you don't assume that it necessarily would have to be all humans throughout all their lifetime.
But i guess i didn't.
Now it becomes meaningless.


Because they are programmed to "know". They can't ever assume anything else. I can't ever assume anything else. It's just there. And it doesn't decay. Because God refreshes it.

Now my point is, that those who have been programmed might accept anything as evidence for Gods existance.
And those who haven't been programmed will not ever accept anything as evidence for Gods existance.
(And theoretically, discussion between these groups about Gods existance is allways pointless)
To "know" is not actually defined. You just assume that based off your own exposure to other religious people who got their exposure from religious people. The common denominator between religious people entering the religion is other people because it survives off indoctrination not a programmed desire to believe in God. You say it's pointless, and you only say that as a foothold to not accept that there's no evidence of God therefore legitimizing a position with zero evidence.
 

selo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,108
I do. I personally like the approach the apologists take, that look into science and try to explain and see where God fits in the equation. The debates between John Lennox and Dawkins are always super interesting.
 

leenbzoold

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,558
This is the entire idea behind science and the scientific method and why it has reliably brought us insights since its popularization.
That's a way to put it.
I'd add: It has massively increased the success rate of our struggles to control our enviroment.

That's not evidence.
Disagreement acknowledged.

Now it becomes meaningless.
No shit. As a little mistake in semantics and everything that followes on it should be in a discussion.
Now my question on how exactly you would detect it if "people have been programmed to believe in God by God himself" is still unanswered on the prior page, but i myself don't really see any relevance in finding an answer to that.

The common denominator between religious people entering the religion is other people because it survives off indoctrination not a programmed desire to believe in God.
You just assume that based of your own exposure to religious people and your exposure to other people who have been exposed to religious people.
And obviously it's true that many people join cults just because of herd instinct and what not, many other reasons that don't actually confirm the cults teachings.
And when it is about the cults teachings themselves, then it's also obvious that many people manage to ignore it when experiences don't align with what they have been teached by other people within the cult.

But when it comes down to the certainty of Gods existance itself, then it only matters if you have been exposed to God himself in any sort of form (over which only God has control over)
and if you are capable of accepting what you have perceived as evidence (over which probably also only God has control over).

It is physically impossible for me to ever assume anything but Gods existance.
 

Smutpeddler

Member
Jan 11, 2018
188
gods are the product of ego and arrogance. As apes developed conscious thought and self awareness, they determined that the natural world needed explanation.
Once they determined that magical sky daddies did everything, they also determined that these gods looked just like human apes.
Our species is weak and gods come from an infantile idea that we are special. These gods "love" and "care" for us. It's just projection to shield the believer from harsh realities.
The only "special" thing about us, is that we are still a thousand years from removing the stain of religion from society.
 

Razgreez

Banned
Apr 13, 2018
366
gods are the product of ego and arrogance. As apes developed conscious thought and self awareness, they determined that the natural world needed explanation.
Once they determined that magical sky daddies did everything, they also determined that these gods looked just like human apes.
Our species is weak and gods come from an infantile idea that we are special. These gods "love" and "care" for us. It's just projection to shield the believer from harsh realities.
The only "special" thing about us, is that we are still a thousand years from removing the stain of religion from society.

Not all theological arguments consider "God", or an all encompassing ever existing entity, to be humanoid so this argument immediately falls apart. Besides, all animals can objectively be determined to have a purpose in their environment. All of them except humans. Frankly, one could objectively state that the earth would be better off without the "stain" of humanity
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
The only test to prove if god is real that I can think of is if we all collectively agreed to destroy all bibles, Qurans, and other major religious text and make sure no one even dares memorize any portion or save any portion in any form. If god is real surely he would reappear and send us more bibles. If not that religion is gone for ever.

It's impossible for religion to be erased completely from mankind. The necessity of a higher power--or at the very least, depending on your view, the perceived existence of a higher power--in our lives is just hard-coded to so many people in this world. Even if hypothetically Islam, Christianity, or any other form of religion are to be erased in their entirety, a belief of higher power would just appear again in a different form.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
I don't, i wish I did as dealing with death without any belief in anything beyond that is very difficult.

I just can't believe in the idea of a god due to the amount of suffering there is, if there was a god that cared we wouldn't have people dying of starvation and needless disease while a tiny percentage of undeserving people control almost all the wealth and power on the planet.
 

dean_rcg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,270
I don't and if there was a God who just sits by while all these horrendous things are happening, then that would not be the God for me.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,141
It's impossible for religion to be erased completely from mankind. The necessity of a higher power--or at the very least, depending on your view, the perceived existence of a higher power--in our lives is just hard-coded to so many people in this world. Even if hypothetically Islam, Christianity, or any other form of religion are to be erased in their entirety, a belief of higher power would just appear again in a different form.
This is an assumption not really found in evidence. Are there any modern religions besides Scientology that have grown recently? It's hard to think of any. Religion is born to control. It's power. Societies that offer things like universal health care, good quality of life, etc. will most likely not see creations of religion because the things religion is supposed to do is already covered. If the big monotheistic religions just vanished without a trace and no one remembered it, you probably won't see anything of their caliber ever again, and if you did it would be in the poor areas of the world where brutes want power, control, and wealth. The big religions today only exist because of infantile and youth indoctrination and poverty.
 

Ogre

Member
Mar 26, 2018
435
I do? My questions are very straightforward.
  • Do I have a purpose? The answer is either yes or no. Yes would require elaboration. No is very succinct and requires little to none
  • Is the propensity for pain greater than that for pleasure?
  • It is possible to obtain satisfaction without any effort?
  • If I have no purpose then what am I enduring the pain for? (pain is inevitable and pleasure/satisfaction is always temporary)
I've pondered over these questions since childhood and had I not found a purpose I would most likely not be here today or at least not in my existing capacity i.e. entirely unhappy, depressed etc. Now I understand that my "purpose" could be entirely subjective and I could be fooling myself in that the end of my existence is purely "the end" i.e. my efforts are ultimately entirely futile and inconsequential. At present, however, the evidence I've encountered supports the former.

I'll break it down for you, because your post was broad, as was my reply, and I'll be specific to save time. These quotes are taken from your original post:

"Belief is a necessary thing. Much of what we accept is not based on our own experience but rather through the acceptance of testimony (verbal and written)."

Belief is essentially accepting a statement as true. We believe everyday statements from others because we subconsciously evaluate statements for likelihood and act based on those prior probabilities. If my wife asks me to go to the store because we are out of milk, I will usually believe her claim. Why? Because running out of milk is a common issue in our house, because I've known my wife for years and she has demonstrated continual trustworthiness based prior claims, because I looked at the level of milk yesterday and it was a quarter full, etc. The evidence for the claim satisfies the low requirements for belief.

If a stranger on the street tells me I'm out of milk, how likely am I to believe them? Not likely, of course.

In fact, we do accept things based on our experiences. Most all of what we come to accept as true is based on our own learned experiences. You are more likely to trust the claim of a close friend over a stranger. You are more likely to trust a source that has proven reliable over an unknown source. We filter claims based on internal criteria constantly. Eventually, we hopefully come to realize that our experiences and senses can also be wrong, and we learn to apply an additional layer of claim-evaluation: critical thinking.

"My perspective is simple, do I (we) have a purpose? If not then I see no reason for continuing to consciously exist." - You have some loaded presuppositions underneath this. Does a purpose require an external source? If it does, why? Why is a self-defined purpose of less value than an externally defined purpose?

"Why? Because the propensity for pain is far higher than that for pleasure due to the accident of birth. I.e. 9 times out of 10 pleasure/satisfaction requires effort yet pain is achieved regardless of effort."
You presuppose that the totality for human experience is reducible to a pain/pleasure dichotomy. Even given that premise, you do not factor in qualitative outcomes in that dichotomy (e.g. the temporary pleasure of a high pain/effort situation outweighing the effort/pain input).

"If I have no purpose then what am I enduring the pain for? For what am I striving? To what end? "
Your question begging here assumes that a given purpose would be a reward for pain/effort. What if your externally-derived purpose is to suffer? What if your externally-derived purpose is to feel fleeting moments pleasure only to immediately feel lasting pain? What if you are a modern Sisyphus, damned to push a 1988 Honda Accord up a hill for all eternity?

"If existing models are to be believed then the universe will simply eventually collapse and all actions, no matter how great or insignificant, would be for nothing. All the knowledge accumulated, all the progress achieved... Nothing."
You presuppose that the only way to have significance is through an "objective" external source. Why? There is no particular reason to assume that an individual's brief existence is meaningless unless given a stamp of approval by an Arbiter of Value.

In most of the world, people operate under the theistic assumption that life is given meaning by an external source - generally a monotheistic God. We do this whether or not we consciously realize it. If a purpose is necessary for continuing life (is it?), what makes a meaning that you define for yourself worthless?

As an aside, I have had clinical depression off and on for most of my life, both with religion, and now without it. The insidious thing about depression is that it disguises actual reality with depression-goggles. That is, you think you see the world for how it really is, but it's really the inability to either feel joy, or the inevitable return to a lack of feeling, that skews the world view more than anything else could. This may or may not be something that you relate with, but regardless, I figure I'd put it our there.

I find this quote wanting. For an entity to be all encompassing it would have had to create everything and that includes both good and evil (and every different shade of gray in between). It would be the originator of objective morality. In other words without an entity to enforce the rules/laws of good and evil neither actually objectively exists. It's all subjective in such an instance

Of course you would find the problem of evil wanting if you assume that the God it addresses does not have those characteristics that the trilemma contains. If God is not omnibenevolent, then the problem is "solved". Now try solving it when you believe in an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God.

The existance of God is not provable.
No line of thoughts can possible end up at the absolute certainty of Gods existance.
If you possess absolute certainty of Gods existance, then that is because God himself just defined it to be so.
No other reason is possible and thus the absolute certainty of Gods existance is never acceptable to anyone who doesn't possess it him/herself.
And so all arguing is pointless.

Absolute certainty is a red herring. We can't be absolutely certain about anything.

Of course, we can be relatively certain. and we can be so relatively certain of the truth of a thing that that thing might as well be functionally, absolutely true for daily life. Now, we cannot disprove or prove the existence of all gods for all universes, but if we are presented with claims about God X, and those claims are testable, we can absolutely find out if it is (relatively) true that that God exists or doesn't.
 

Razgreez

Banned
Apr 13, 2018
366
I don't and if there was a God who just sits by while all these horrendous things are happening, then that would not be the God for me.

Is that not why the concept of a reckoning is necessary. For example, if an entity does not exist to meet out ultimate justice then justice does not exist. I.e. those who benefit from the accident of birth and are born privileged and therefore able to maintain that privilege throughout their lives, which is always to the detriment of others, effectively live a life of pleasure. Those who are not so fortunate, the majority, have no recourse and spend their lives attempting to overcome the accident of birth. There is no benefit to living a "good" life since good is purely subjective.

Which takes me back to my original post in this thread. If there is no purpose, no reckoning i.e. no objective meaning to this existence then why endure it. Once you die the little pleasure is forgotten and all the pain endured is meaningless. The result is the same whether you suffer or not so why suffer?
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
This is an assumption not really found in evidence. Are there any modern religions besides Scientology that have grown recently? It's hard to think of any. Religion is born to control. It's power. Societies that offer things like universal health care, good quality of life, etc. will most likely not see creations of religion because the things religion is supposed to do is already covered. If the big monotheistic religions just vanished without a trace and no one remembered it, you probably won't see anything of their caliber ever again, and if you did it would be in the poor areas of the world where brutes want power, control, and wealth. The big religions today only exist because of infantile and youth indoctrination and poverty.

There are studies and arguments related to this, about how the belief in religion--or a belief in something--is a byproduct of our evolution and natural selection. It's called evolutionary psychology of religion.

It may be an assumption, but it is a strong assumption based on reality--has there ever been a part of human history that a belief of something does not exist? A total eradication of religion or "believing in something" is impossible at the very least because there has never been a case of it happening ever, in the history of men.

Maybe someday, in the far, far, far future? That's a really huge maybe.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
Is that not why the concept of a reckoning is necessary. For example, if an entity does not exist to meet out ultimate justice then justice does not exist. I.e. those who benefit from the accident of birth and are born privileged and therefore able to maintain that privilege throughout their lives, which is always to the detriment of others, effectively live a life of pleasure. Those who are not so fortunate, the majority, have no recourse and spend their lives attempting to overcome the accident of birth. There is no benefit to living a "good" life since good is purely subjective.

Which takes me back to my original post in this thread. If there is no purpose, no reckoning i.e. no objective meaning to this existence then why endure it. Once you die the little pleasure is forgotten and all the pain endured is meaningless. The result is the same whether you suffer or not so why suffer?

We "suffer" to enjoy the pleasure life brings, to set our own purpose or meaning, or not. Is it that difficult to accept your existence is down to probability? That enough choices whether conscious or through the chaos of matter and evolution have led to your existence?

We live, we die, the cycle continues without you as it did before you
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
Absolute certainty is a red herring. We can't be absolutely certain about anything.

I can't be absolutely certain that our entire reality isn't a simulation and that in objective reality, outside the simulation, you aren't actually a breakdancing sentient frog that is freestyling random rhymes while beatboxing the entire output of Nick Mason, the drummer for Pink Floyd.

I can't be absolutely certain.

But it would be completely nuts to think that is true or even plausible in absence of hard evidence.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,141
There are studies and arguments related to this, about how the belief in religion--or a belief in something--is a byproduct of our evolution and natural selection. It's called evolutionary psychology of religion.

It may be an assumption, but it is a strong assumption based on reality--has there ever been a part of human history that a belief of something does not exist? A total eradication of religion or "believing in something" is impossible at the very least because there has never been a case of it happening ever, in the history of men.

Maybe someday, in the far, far, far future? That's a really huge maybe.
You would need to show creation and growth of religions in the modern world. The closest is Scientology. It's very fair to say that religion wouldn't be as big or even a small minority in modern countries if it started from scratch again. At best you'd see other systems of control, manipulation, and exploitation rather than a deity focused program. Heck, religions in modern countries aren't based around faith but power and control.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
If this means like a Christian God, then not at all.

If it's asking about any higher power, then my answer is still no.

I could always be wrong though.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Yes, I do. I won't be a judgy Christian to you if you are not an edgy atheist to me.
I'm not necessarily an atheist, but I have jehovahs witness coming to my door, quacks at work preaching about the lord, and "in God we trust" on my money. I take offense at some of that so it makes it hard to not be an "edgy atheist" type sometimes.

I don't give a shit what anyone believes until it's pushed on me. At that point I take offense. Not here in this thread mind you, because that's what we're discussing. In the real world though... UGH.
 

Ogre

Member
Mar 26, 2018
435
Objectively, yes.
For a subjective perspective "absolute certainty" just equates to "total absence of all doubts".

No. You aren't getting what I'm saying, so I'll restate it.

On an individual basis, we do not need to have "total absence of all doubts" to accept or not accept a claim as true.

Person A: You have a dragon under your bed.
Person B: I don't believe you.
Person A: Why? Do you have total absence of all doubt that a dragon could be under your bed?
Person B: What the hell?
Person A: I mean, anything is possible!
Person B: Yeah... I mean, sure?
Person A: So, now do you believe that a dragon is under your bed?
Person B: Well, when you put it like that, I guess I have to!

I can't be absolutely certain that our entire reality isn't a simulation and that in objective reality, outside the simulation, you aren't actually a breakdancing sentient frog that is freestyling random rhymes while beatboxing the entire output of Nick Mason, the drummer for Pink Floyd.

I can't be absolutely certain.

But it would be completely nuts to think that is true or even plausible in absence of hard evidence.

I... what? It looks like you are agreeing with me, because that's basically my point?
 

Razgreez

Banned
Apr 13, 2018
366
You have some loaded presuppositions underneath this. Does a purpose require an external source? If it does, why? Why is a self-defined purpose of less value than an externally defined purpose?

Yes it does. It requires an external source which is able to qualify and enforce it without which it remains subjective. An external source which is the originator of truth enables objective truth.

You presuppose that the totality for human experience is reducible to a pain/pleasure dichotomy. Even given that premise, you do not factor in qualitative outcomes in that dichotomy (e.g. the temporary pleasure of a high pain/effort situation outweighing the effort/pain input).

I did not factor in qualitative outcomes since those are subjective. Pain and pleasure are already subjective however one can objectively state that organisms do not voluntarily partake of actions of which the pain subjectively outweighs the satisfaction or works objectively against furthering their existence or that of their offspring unless they are malfunctioning. What is not subjective is the fact that the propensity for pain far outweighs that for pleasure and that pleasure requires effort whereas pain does not.

Your question begging here assumes that a given purpose would be a reward for pain/effort. What if your externally-derived purpose is to suffer? What if your externally-derived purpose is to feel fleeting moments pleasure only to immediately feel lasting pain? What if you are a modern Sisyphus, damned to push a 1988 Honda Accord up a hill for all eternity?

On the contrary the purpose is not the "reward". Rather the reward incentivizes and reinforces the purpose. Do X and objectively accomplish Y versus do/don't do X and objectively accomplish nothing. People are fine with doing X, Y and Z and ultimately objectively accomplishing nothing. Im not insane, thankfully :D.

You presuppose that the only way to have significance is through an "objective" external source. Why? There is no particular reason to assume that an individual's brief existence is meaningless unless given a stamp of approval by an Arbiter of Value.

There's no reason to assume anything. If the universe will ultimately cease then all actions within are objectively meaningless. If I'm ultimately going to burn my dissertation without having anybody read it and immediately thereafter going to end my life then the action of writing it was ultimately meaningless. And so is my life

In most of the world, people operate under the theistic assumption that life is given meaning by an external source - generally a monotheistic God. We do this whether or not we consciously realize it. If a purpose is necessary for continuing life (is it?), what makes a meaning that you define for yourself worthless?

I have to admit I'm having trouble parsing the last statement but I will try to respond to what I can infer. A purpose is not necessary for "continuing life". Non-selfaware organisms strive to exist without seemingly being aware of their purpose in maintaining balance within the earth's ecosystem. The difference is they have an objective purpose which we can observe. Similarly "inanimate" objects have objective purpose e.g. sun, moon, etc. Humans have none. We simply have the propensity to nurture and develop or consume and destroy and yet without us the perceived objective balance is far less easily upset. Unless of course we are some sort of cosmic virus. Im willing to accept that I suppose.

As an aside, I have had clinical depression off and on for most of my life, both with religion, and now without it. The insidious thing about depression is that it disguises actual reality with depression-goggles. That is, you think you see the world for how it really is, but it's really the inability to either feel joy, or the inevitable return to a lack of feeling, that skews the world view more than anything else could. This may or may not be something that you relate with, but regardless, I figure I'd put it our there.

I have experience with depression as a child. I was forced to endure a situation which I neither desired nor was of my own making. It was an emotional turning point however even then my world view was not affected. Rather I had simply not learned to process my situation as a more experienced individual might have however that situation forced a rapid development in that regard. The benefit not withstanding it is not something I would put others through especially not a child.

Of course you would find the problem of evil wanting if you assume that the God it addresses does not have those characteristics that the trilemma contains. If God is not omnibenevolent, then the problem is "solved". Now try solving it when you believe in an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God.

That's not something I could solve because I do not accept the premise. You're placing limitations upon an entity which by definition has to be beyond limitations. Thank you for carefully assessing my post though. There're few things I enjoy more than a thoughtful discussion.

We "suffer" to enjoy the pleasure life brings, to set our own purpose or meaning, or not. Is it that difficult to accept your existence is down to probability? That enough choices whether conscious or through the chaos of matter and evolution have led to your existence?

We live, we die, the cycle continues without you as it did before you

You're misunderstanding. Once you die neither the experience of suffering nor the pleasure remains. My emphasis is on the fact that pain is inevitable and requires no effort yet pleasure does. I could perhaps break it down as follows.
  • Endure X, potentially enjoy Y and ultimately objectively accomplish Z vs...
  • Endure X, potentially enjoy Y and ultimately objectively accomplish nothing vs..
  • Choose not to endure X, forgo potentially enjoying Y, end existence and ultimately objectively accomplish nothing
I'd choose the ultimate option in a heart murmur if the initial were proven to not be true
 
Last edited:

Conor419

Banned
Nov 26, 2017
2,320
London
My thoughts:

1. The Universe — the sum of all things — is god, and we are all fragments of god which can experience itself in its majesty.

or

2. There is an actual God that created the Universe; however, it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the Earth gods and instead is its own force of nature — it also probably doesn't care about us.

All things considered: I can say with near-absolute-certainty that all of the Gods created by human are fictional, except like, maybe Athena cos she's cool.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
You're misunderstanding. Once you die neither the experience of suffering nor the pleasure remains. My emphasis is on the fact that pain is inevitable and requires no effort yet pleasure does. I could perhaps break it down as follows.
  • Endure X, potentially enjoy Y and ultimately objectively accomplish Z vs...
  • Endure X, potentially enjoy Y and ultimately objectively accomplish nothing vs..
  • Choose not to endure X, forgo potentially enjoying Y, end existence and ultimately objectively accomplish nothing
I'd choose the ultimate option in a heart murmur if the initial were proven to not be true
I was taking from you that without an external purpose provided by your beliefs you see no reason to endure the suffering of existence. I was merely saying that we can create our own purpose and derive pleasure from life without the need of an external purpose.

Plus you can of course experience the pleasures of life without being the one to cause it, it's provided by your friends, your family, and strangers
 

Razgreez

Banned
Apr 13, 2018
366
I was taking from you that without an external purpose provided by your beliefs you see no reason to endure the suffering of existence. I was merely saying that we can create our own purpose and derive pleasure from life without the need of an external purpose.

We can but that's entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless. You're effectively admitting that its literally a wasted effort and nothing but self-delusion. That's clearly good enough for most but not for me. It's inefficient to be honest

Plus you can of course experience the pleasures of life without being the one to cause it, it's provided by your friends, your family, and strangers

From a philosophical perspective in this instance you are still a cause. Your effort to continue existing is a cause upon which effort is applied and that effort is then perceived as pleasure. However, you've still exerted effort in order to accomplish said state. Trying simply literally doing nothing for the rest of your life and see how long you:

  • Continue to exist
  • Are able to avoid experience pain
  • Are able to enjoy any pleasure
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
We can but that's entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless. You're effectively admitting that its literally a wasted effort and nothing but self-delusion. That's clearly good enough for most but not for me. It's inefficient to be honest
So what if it is meaningless though? You're here, you have one life that we know of, why wouldn't you try and make the most of it both for you and others around you? Even after you're gone, others are going to have to live with the consequences of choices that you made when you were here.

Even if your actions don't matter in a thousand years time, they matter now, both to you and others around you. I don't know why you need some outside reward to find purpose to your life when you can be rewarded for your efforts in this life.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
I would if I could.

But it doesn't make sense for there to be a hierarchy of omnipotence without just making the universe itself be the only thing that exists.
 

Sinfamy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
No, and I think less of those who do.
Does that make me a bad person?
I'm sorry, I don't want to have that immediate reaction, but it just disappoints me because that belief leaks into everything.

Fedora tipping aside, how can I trust what you have to say on any other matter, when your fundamental view of objective reality is so different then mine.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
We can but that's entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless. You're effectively admitting that its literally a wasted effort and nothing but self-delusion. That's clearly good enough for most but not for me. It's inefficient to be honest
Ironically enough, that is my view on following any particular religion so that's at least something we share
From a philosophical perspective in this instance you are still a cause. Your effort to continue existing is a cause upon which effort is applied and that effort is then perceived as pleasure. However, you've still exerted effort in order to accomplish said state. Trying simply literally doing nothing for the rest of your life and see how long you:

  • Continue to exist
  • Are able to avoid experience pain
  • Are able to enjoy any pleasure
I'm sorry but this line of thinking is ultimately self-defeating. If that is indeed the way you view the world around you I can only wish you luck and it does seem you need religion in order to not just succumb to the pressures of life. Just be aware that there are millions (billions?) of people on this planet who don't and will act out of the kindness of their heart regardless of your influence whether you choose to believe that or not
 

Razgreez

Banned
Apr 13, 2018
366
So what if it is meaningless though? You're here, you have one life that we know of, why wouldn't you try and make the most of it both for you and others around you? Even after you're gone, others are going to have to live with the consequences of choices that you made when you were here.

As I said previously I have no issues with those who hold that perspective. However there needs to be some sort of consistency. One cannot have the perspective of "yeah even if it's ultimately meaningless and objectively morality does not exist just enjoy what you can now" and then complain when they feel they are being oppressed or their subjective rights are being ingored etc. In such an instance good and evil are simply social constructs and to claim otherwise is not consistent with one's perspective. However, I will emphatically state that this does not comply with reality - or at least the reality we are objectively able to perceive. Order clearly exists as does entropy.

Even if your actions don't matter in a thousand years time, they matter now, both to you and others around you.

Time is relative from our accepted scientific perspective. Therefore the perceived difference between now and a thousand years time from the perspective of our universe is literally (almost/tends towards) nothing (0). To you "now" is important but that importance is subjective. If it does not matter in future then it does not matter now. If you truly are a logical non-theist then accepting such a scenario is untenable. To assess this simply envision yourself having had an enjoyable self-fulfilling life, or any life really, and then you die. In this state of non-existence death does that life matter? Will you have any recollection of it. No. It was ultimately nothing and now so are you. Perception ends.

I don't know why you need some outside reward to find purpose to your life when you can be rewarded for your efforts in this life.

Simple. Once this life is over, and it is over very quickly, then so is all the effort and all the reward and it's, from one's perspective, as if it never had occurred. But because one can't perceive anything in a state of non-existence once cannot even appreciate the state of non-existence.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
Time is relative from our accepted scientific perspective. Therefore the perceived difference between now and a thousand years time from the perspective of our universe is literally (almost/tends towards) nothing (0). To you "now" is important but that importance is subjective. If it does not matter in future then it does not matter now. If you truly are a logical non-theist then accepting such a scenario is untenable. To assess this simply envision yourself having had an enjoyable self-fulfilling life, or any life really, and then you die. In this state of non-existence death does that life matter? Will you have any recollection of it. No. It was ultimately nothing and now so are you. Perception ends.

Simple. Once this life is over, and it is over very quickly, then so is all the effort and all the reward and it's, from one's perspective, as if it never had occurred. But because one can't perceive anything in a state of non-existence once cannot even appreciate the state of non-existence.

Exactly. An individual can achieve greatness in their time and be remembered that way, but it's fleeting and in the grand scheme of things really quite arbitrary.

Non-theists just accept that and enjoy their life regardless or not depending on their experience and outlook I guess.