Do you consider there to be much of a difference between videogame piracy and buying games second hand/from a key reseller?

[nsilvias]

No publishers hate legit key resellers though?

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they dont hate those they approve of which they still have some kind of control over since they buy the keys direct from the dev.
resellers who dont buy from them are the ones they hate because they feel like they are getting ripped off despite being paid for the key already.

 

[atomsk eater]

As long as key resellers are selling legit purchases, it's preferable to pirating to me. I have no beef with secondhand sales since that's how I get most of my games. If the game has steam cards or something the devs still get cents from that as well, so again legit keys are best.

 

[Crayon]

This is making my head spin.

 

[nsilvias]

I agree with all of this, but you said "alot of the keys resellers sell have already been paid for. to me its no different than buying used.", which sounded like you think buying a key is the same as buying a used game, which it's not,

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as i said in a post above. lets not play these semantic games. ya'll know what i mean

 

[saenima]

You wouldn't buy a used car.

 

[TaySan]

Do you have this same problem when buying a used car or an electronic?

 

[Deleted member 2752]

as i said in a post above. lets not play these semantic games. ya'll know what i mean

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I literally didn't or I wouldn't have asked.

 

[Trice]

I've been buying keys from key re-sellers for years. Those keys are bought, albeit for cheaper but they're bought nonetheless. Some sites are sketchy as fuck, no doubt, buy you can find the legit ones fast. Use forums, Trustpilot or whatever.

 

[Prophet Five]

Depends on how you look at it i guess. If you are playing a game and you didn't give any money to the company that made that game from the companies' point of view they still didn't get money from that sale. Well, they would have made a sale from the first buyer but they could have made a second sale from you. That's basically what i'm asking, where do people draw the line?

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Buying used items, as long as they are not stolen, is not a crime, dishonest, etc. This is such a strange, extreme point of view. Do you consider used cars, books, music, second hand furniture, clothes, appliances, anything sold on craigslist, eBay or Mercari to be dishonest and the profits from said merchandise to be stolen from the manufacturer? Because it isn't. Or does it only "matter" because its about video games?

 

[Lant_War]

they dont hate those they approve of which they still have some kind of control over since they buy the keys direct from the dev.
resellers who dont buy from them are the ones they hate because they feel like they are getting ripped off despite being paid for the key already.

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Because if those they don't approve have a 100% chance of having stolen copies.

 

[Eumi]

Yes, I do believe there is a difference between legally purchasing a product and illegally downloading it.

What kind of a question even is that?

 

[saenima]

Game publishers really did a number on some people's minds.

 

[OrangeNova]

Absolutely there is a difference.

 

[Filipus]

I think OP is missing the point where in selling used items, money is circulating. The seller gets money back, money he will spend on something (another game?). When you pirate, there's no money for anyone.
The economy isn't a simple straight line, top to down. It expands like a tree and comes back to you.

If a country is in a recession and lacking money what they should do is invest heavily, not save money. That makes money circulate and "reboom" economies. Same idea.

 

[cowbanana]

Stop thinking that games are different than any other product. They're not special snow flakes and publishers are not your friends and they're not outside of general rules of commerce. What cdkeys is doing is completely legit and buying used is completely legit.

 

[Contrite]

In terms of legality: not equivalent. In terms of morality? Equivalent.

So yes, I don't view pirates any different than people who buy second-hand. I know the 'legality'-brigade that always comes out in threads like this will dislike me for it, though.

 

[Deleted member 923]

One is theft and the other isn't so obviously? There are some really bizzare takes on this website.

 

[Drain You]

Yes, I do believe there is a difference between legally purchasing a product and illegally downloading it.

What kind of a question even is that?

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And yet I feel like this question gets asked pretty often.

 

[mute]

Devs/pubs have it within their power to create a system where used games are no longer a thing.

They choose not to do that, so I'm not going to feel bad about treating games like any other sold good.

 

[nsilvias]

Because if those they don't approve have a 100% chance of having stolen copies.

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with that kind of logic all the key resellers on this forum most likely stole all those keys.

 

[Andrew-Ryan]

Buying used isn't close to piracy at all. Wtf? With piracy 1 individual can buy and copy for $60 and then distribute that to 1million people freely and without giving up their copy. If 1 million people wanted to buy a used copy of a game then 1 million people would 1st need to buy the game new and then sell it used to these people. How can you not see the difference?

I wish people would spend 5 minutes and run these "hot takes" through their minds and think about the logic behind them before they so confidently blurt them out.

 

[Haze]

alot of the keys resellers sell have already been paid for. to me its no different than buying used.

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And That's that on that

 

[Trice]

Devs/pubs have it within their power to create a system where used games are no longer a thing.

They choose not to do that, so I'm not going to feel bad about treating games like any other sold good.

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Exactly, at the end of the day, devs/pubs are companies and games are products. Buy and sell them like you'd do any other.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

Here's the thing. The game companies aren't supposed to receive money from those copies; and they have no right to it, and no expectation that they should have it. That's how selling things works. Game developers/publishers just don't get to decide that somehow the entire history of human commerce is irrelevant, and suddenly they're being cheated by not getting more money from a thing they've already sold.

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That's a good point. Completely hypothetical situation: If a game company that made games that you love went out of business because let's say 70% of the sales of their last few expensive game were second hand how would you feel about that?

One thing i will say about the second hand market for videogames is that it does seem so much more prevalent than most comparative kind of entertainment products. Obviously forget eBay where anything goes but i can walk into say HMV to buy some music (who am i kidding, i get it from Amazon) and never see a second hand section whereas with Game it's sometimes hard to buy something that isn't second hand.

 

[Jiraiya]

In terms of legality: not equivalent. In terms of morality? Equivalent.

So yes, I don't view pirates any different than people who buy second-hand. I know the 'legality'-brigade that always comes out in threads like this will dislike me for it, though.

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Cause you're admitting your stance is illogical.

 

[quarknugget]

If you buy a used game you are still indirectly increasing demand for the original product.

The developer doesn't see a direct cut of that transaction, but if enough people are buying the product used it will increase demand for the new product if it is still being sold, as the supply of the used product goes down.

The same cannot be usually said for piracy because you are often just obtaining a digital copy and not depleting a supply. Sometimes a certain level of piracy can still increase demand, though, because people who would not otherwise be playing the game are playing it and talking about it with others.

 

[Dekuman]

Piracy adds nothing outside of exposing people to games they can't afford but is often used to just straight up avoid spending anything even if they can afford.
There's always that one guy who knit picks a game to pieces and closes will "I'll just pirate it" because the game didn't meet their arbitrary standards. Those are the worst kinds of gamers.

2nd hand contributes to an after market and builds a community around games. It has way more indirect benefits to the hobby.

 

[xxracerxx]

One thing i will say about the second hand market for videogames is that it does seem so much more prevalent than most comparative kind of entertainment products. Obviously forget eBay where anything goes but i can walk into say HMV to buy some music (who am i kidding, i get it from Amazon) and never see a second hand section whereas with Game it's sometimes hard to buy something that isn't second hand.

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Aren't HMV and Game completely different business models? I am not from the UK, but isn't HMV more like a Target and Game is like a GameStop? You can't compare the two.

 

[FTLMantis]

I always feel like buying used at least depletes the used copy market and so keeps the price higher. This might persuade people to buy new instead. I feel the same way about (legitimate) key resellers. There's nothing wrong with taking either of these routes.

Piracy and buying stolen keys is different. These don't engage with the "market" at all, and so are basically straight "theft". These options are only ok (to me) where either no option to buy the game in a legitomate manner exists or where it's exorbitantly expensive (like in a lot of non European/American markets).

 

[Trice]

That's a good point. Completely hypothetical situation: If a game company that made games that you love went out of business because let's say 70% of the sales of their last few expensive game were second hand how would you feel about that?

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What you're arguing here is morality in a free market. Free market doesn't care about feelings, only supply, demand and profit. If they went out of business it's because they were either out of touch to the market, couldn't adapt and manage their expectations, or they got hit with a dose of real life like hundreds and thousands of companies before them.

It's legal and it's perfectly fine to buy or sell used. Games are just like any other product.

 

[ShinUltramanJ]

I'm fine with second hand sales, and I'm 1,000% fine with most key sellers.

That's a good point. Completely hypothetical situation: If a game company that made games that you love went out of business because let's say 70% of the sales of their last few expensive game were second hand how would you feel about that?

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I'd feel it's their fault for not putting the game on sale, or giving people a reason to buy a new copy.

I'm not some charity, and there's ten bajillion game developers out there. If you're failing to make it, then that's not the consumer's fault.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

Buying used items, as long as they are not stolen, is not a crime, dishonest, etc. This is such a strange, extreme point of view. Do you consider used cars, books, music, second hand furniture, clothes, appliances, anything sold on craigslist, eBay or Mercari to be dishonest and the profits from said merchandise to be stolen from the manufacturer? Because it isn't. Or does it only "matter" because its about video games?

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I don't know if some of those things can be compared to the same extent. Obviously none of that is wrong but a lot of those items can't have a digital copy created for no extra expense. Cars are often bought at a fraction of the price of what they would have been new, it's not like a consumer has a choice between buying a car brand new for random amount alert, i dunno, £10000 or to buy it second hand for £9950 at the same location.

I'm a bit weird i'll admit though cause especially when it comes to music i've often bought vinyl copies of small bands from tiny labels that i like just to support them. I don't even own a vinyl player. I might not have the most objective view on this!

 

[spman2099]

Are we really going to try to lump people purchasing games on the secondhand market with people who outright steal them? Really? This shit again? I can remember when publishers first started pushing this idea. It was soon followed by the disastrous X-Box One reveal where they tried to eliminate the secondhand market; immediately after that nuked MS's prospects for this generation all those publishers shut their fucking mouths. People have a right to sell their property. Publishers don't deserve a cut of that. Chevy doesn't deserve a cut for the car I purchased on the secondhand market, either.

 

[SeanShards]

That's a good point. Completely hypothetical situation: If a game company that made games that you love went out of business because let's say 70% of the sales of their last few expensive game were second hand how would you feel about that?

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[Prophet Five]

Are we really going to try to lump people purchasing games on the secondhand market with people who outright steal them? Really? This shit again? I can remember when publishers first started pushing this idea. It was soon followed by the disastrous X-Box One reveal where they tried to eliminate the secondhand market; immediately after that nuked MS's prospects for this generation all those publishers shut their fucking mouths. People have a right to sell their property. Publishers don't deserve a cut of that. Chevy doesn't deserve a cut for the car I purchased on the secondhand market, either.

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Yes, this is exactly what's going on. Another way for people to feel morally superior to others on a forum by saying "anyone who doesn't buy every game, console, and accessory new is a BAD PERSON™!!!

 

[SFLUFAN]

In terms of legality: not equivalent. In terms of morality? Equivalent.

So yes, I don't view pirates any different than people who buy second-hand. I know the 'legality'-brigade that always comes out in threads like this will dislike me for it, though.

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This nomsensical question barely even enters the "moral sphere" at all.

 

[Raijinto]

Yes there is a big difference. Stealing is both immoral and illegal whilst selling things you own and buying things from other people is neither.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

Yes, this is exactly what's going on. Another way for people to feel morally superior to others on a forum by saying "anyone who doesn't buy every game, console, and accessory new is a BAD PERSON™!!!

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If that was your takeaway from my post then wow, i need to work on expressing myself better. For the record i have purchased plenty of second hand videogames in my time so let me be clear about that.

 

[SFLUFAN]

That's a good point. Completely hypothetical situation: If a game company that made games that you love went out of business because let's say 70% of the sales of their last few expensive game were second hand how would you feel about that?

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I would feel that this company's management was not agile enough to adapt to changing market conditions.

 

[John Wick]

Depends on how you look at it i guess. If you are playing a game and you didn't give any money to the company that made that game from the companies' point of view they still didn't get money from that sale. Well, they would have made a sale from the first buyer but they could have made a second sale from you. That's basically what i'm asking, where do people draw the line?

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I just don't get your reasoning OP? Do other second hand items when sold give money to the makers??? If i buy a second hand Audi from a garage do Audi get paid again? Why do developers need paying twice? or publishers for that matter?
I've bought Star Wars on VHS. Then the enhanced editions then DVD and then Blu-Ray. Why am i paying 4 times for the same shit? Shouldn't I be entitled to something seeing as i paid 4x???

 

[WestEgg]

With used copies or digital keys, something is at least consumed to take a unit of that product out of circulation, one which the publisher has been paid for originally. This isn't true of Piracy.

 

[Htown]

I don't know if some of those things can be compared to the same extent. Obviously none of that is wrong but a lot of those items can't have a digital copy created for no extra expense. Cars are often bought at a fraction of the price of what they would have been new, it's not like a consumer has a choice between buying a car brand new for random amount alert, i dunno, £10000 or to buy it second hand for £9950 at the same location.

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the comparison you're looking for is with books

like game media, the physical portion is only there to deliver the experience or information to the end user, and it's the information that is endlessly reproducible

if I read a book and then sell it, the next person gets the exact same thing that I did

we going to pretend libraries are piracy next?

 

[spman2099]

I actually don't know how the rental system works. Back in the olden days of VHS rentals i know that buying a copy of a movie specifically for renting would cost the rental store much more than if a random consumer walked into a store and bought it. So in that case the film studios still make a decent chunk on the sales of these rental versions of movies.

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So, this is close, but it isn't QUITE correct. My father owned a video store and I worked in it for a good seven years or so (I started working pretty young). We would actually pay the same amount as a typical consumer when the movie was released to the general public. However, that wasn't typically how it worked. We would usually get exclusivity for the first six months to a year. When the movie wasn't being released to the general public at the same time (which was often the case), and we had that exclusivity, we WOULD have to pay an ungodly amount of money (often well over a hundred dollars) in order to secure a copy. That is why few mom and pop video stores would have more than two or three copies of the big releases.

 

[cardboardboxer]

I recently bought a Steam key straight from a developer on G2A. It's not all black and white bad and good.

 

[Schlomo]

Buying used is still putting money into the market. Whoever gets my money might have more to spend on new video games than he normally would.

 

[Metal Slugger]

The physical copy was already sold, so the pub/dev already got paid for it. DLC/paid content is also a factor.

OP sounds like 2013 pre-backpedal Microsoft. No one wants this shit except the bean counters.

 

[Sawneeks]

Huh. Read the title and an answer came immediately but when I thought about it some more this is kind of a weird moral question.

Think about it. I'm not sure how the original source of a pirated game gets found but I'm assuming it is purchased, no? So say someone buys Dark Souls 3 when it comes out and then puts it online for people to download for free.

Now take a used game. Someone buys Dark Souls 3 at launch and then sells it to GameStop or something. People can then go there and buy it for a reduced price.

But, in both instances, the original developer only makes one sale despite however many people get it later on.

So if you're only concerned about the original dev and not the third party middle man, what's the difference? It's a pretty solid argument for buying new if that's your primary concern.

Fun moral question, OP. For clarity I am against piracy and think used game sales are fine. It's just interesting to think that a legal transaction is the only major difference in the morality of this scenario.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

I just don't get your reasoning OP? Do other second hand items when sold give money to the makers??? If i buy a second hand Audi from a garage do Audi get paid again? Why do developers need paying twice? or publishers for that matter?
I've bought Star Wars on VHS. Then the enhanced editions then DVD and then Blu-Ray. Why am i paying 4 times for the same shit? Shouldn't I be entitled to something seeing as i paid 4x???

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Here's my secret confession: I can't drive so i've never owned a car. I'm pretty sure though that when you go somewhere to buy a car you want you don't get presented with two options: One brand new that the manufacturer gets money for and then see an identical car for £10 cheaper that they don't get money for.

As for Star Wars, you can argue that you're paying for increased visual quality and extra special effects/bonus features for the DVD and Blu-Ray, although seeing as it's Star Wars there's probably a lot of people that would prefer the VHS version! Or you could say you're paying extra to own the movie in the latest format. Bit like if a game is remastered/ported to a new platform, i'm not arguing that you should be entitled to that for free.

 

[arttq]

the comparison you're looking for is with books

like game media, the physical portion is only there to deliver the experience or information to the end user, and it's the information that is endlessly reproducible

if I read a book and then sell it, the next person gets the exact same thing that I did

we going to pretend libraries are piracy next?

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We even have console games in libraries here in Finland.

 

[Kyuuji]

That's only one side of the used games market though. Selling games gives people money to buy new games. So it's not a pure negative for pubs.

Same for cases where being able to sell the game is a factor in the purchasing decision.