Do you want skill runes to return in Diablo 4?

Sulik2 · Oct 16, 2019

I don't know if skills would really fix what I dislikes about D3. I played it earlier this year for the first and just found it an absolute, boring, braindead, repetitive slog.

They need to fix the combat first. They must incorporate some sort of player skill into the gameplay beyond hold down trigger and watch screen explode. Make player health be tiny and require dodging or fewer skills that take aiming. Something to make combat not so boring.

For the love of god a decent story. D3's story was physically painful to watch.

I'd like to see raid style mechanics incorporated into gameplay on higher difficulties instead of just cranking up health and damage percentages.

Make loot meaningful, have it affect powers and combat dramatically beyond just number boosts. Modify abilities etc...

Killzig · Oct 16, 2019

Eh, I'd be happy with just a D2 remaster. I don't trust Blizzard to make anything as good ever again.

Dreams-Visions · Oct 16, 2019

Fularu said:
Diablo 3 had the best foundation where it mattered the most, actually playing and feeling the impact of your actions.

2,000+ hours in and I feel quite a bit differently. While nailing the basic gameplay and feel of moment to moment combat is essential and was done well (and the biggest reason I kept playing), what mattered just as much was retaining players ability to be creative with their setups. The ability to diversity your build, make new builds, and enjoy real creativity is what mattered the most. What ended up happening was players were funneled season after season in to 1 or 2 viable builds for end-game activities, with no flexibility at all. None. If you didn't have one or two particular sets in a given season, you weren't doing meaningful greater rifts. If your favorite build got the nerf bat, too bad. Time to change how you play to accommodate the one or two builds that are now approved to be good for end-game or switch classes...or not play.

That is not in the spirit of Diablo and was properly captured by Path of Exile, which had scores of builds you could do or make up on your own once you were familiar enough with the game's systems. This made real end game players of D3 leave in droves for other games. It did, however, allow for players and audiences who are unfamiliar with the genre were able to enjoy the amount of time they were going to really engage with the game < 200 hours. Most of those millions of sales were not in it for a "play for years" experience, so the more training wheels approach -- with limited skills and builds -- worked. For that audience, anyway. If they want the hardcore players to come back (and they'd love to come back), the game has to be just as diverse and empowering creatively (builds, styles of play) as it feels good to play.

Moebius · Oct 16, 2019

Is this a joke thread? Of course not. Skill runes were trash. Imagine how bad it would be to replace character building and spells in a D&D campaign with a spell rune system. It's ridiculous and made no sense. There's no sense of building a character when I can switch to whatever I want, whenever I want. I also hated that I couldn't power up a rune by leveling it up.

Give me skill trees and character stat points back so I can have an actual RPG experience. My barbarian should not be wielding a magic wand because that damage output is higher than the sword I have.

carlsojo · Oct 16, 2019

I don't like skill trees really, I vastly preferred the rune system.

To be fair though, the reason I liked the rune system was how easy it was to experiment and try different builds.

If they made a skill tree system that was easy to switch points around I could enjoy that.

Deleted member 31817 · Oct 16, 2019

JG_Lionheart said:
I really really don't like Skill Trees. Grim Dawn soured me on it entirely.

Wut that's the best part of the game. D4 at least needs stat management as you level up.

Also for christ's sake the reliance on sets needs to go.

VeryHighlander · Oct 16, 2019

No. But I also don't know what they should have to replace it. Just know that the initial launch of D4 would be instantly boiled down to cookie cutter builds just like D3 if they go with the runes again.

SolidChamp · Oct 16, 2019

Nihilus said:
I want my skill trees and runewords back.
And let us save our builds and items in a build wardrobe for easy speccing.

This is a thing in Diablo 3

Tuorom · Oct 16, 2019

Firemind said:
Either you're disingenuous or no build was actually like this in D2. Pick one.

Nah D2 synergies didn't increase variety, they just become places to put points into to make your main skill better.

You'd go, I want to make a cold/lightning sorc. Max frozen orb, otherwise use lightning/chain lightning. All skill points into lightning synergies basically other than one point wonders.

I want to make a hammerdin. Max hammer and synergies.

I want to make a trapsin. Max synergies and use death sentry.

Reddaye · Oct 16, 2019

Ambient80 said:
More than runes, I liked Charms from D2. Just put them in your inventory and you got bonuses. Allowed for some even more fine tuned customization of your character. But, at least on consoles, they'd have to totally redo the inventory management system.
I realize I'm probably in the minority on that tho haha

The Talisman system they were planning was going to be the way to manage charms in Diablo 3. They scrapped it entirely along the way, but I believe there's at least one shot of it in development somewhere out there. They didn't like how charms were just buffs that took up valuable inventory space, so the Talisman was designed as a menu to slot them in.

Genesius · Oct 16, 2019

I think they need to kind of reboot, try something different.

I would dig it if Diablo became their take on Souls-style games, albeit with more loot.

Ambient80 · Oct 16, 2019

Reddaye said:
The Talisman system they were planning was going to be the way to manage charms in Diablo 3. They scrapped it entirely along the way, but I believe there's at least one shot of it in development somewhere out there. They didn't like how charms were just buffs that took up valuable inventory space, so the Talisman was designed as a menu to slot them in.

Neat! I never knew that.

Kitsunelaine · Oct 16, 2019

Genesius said:
I think they need to kind of reboot, try something different.

I would dig it if Diablo became their take on Souls-style games, albeit with more loot.

"Kill Diablo and make it something literally completely different and not even in the same genre".

That'll go over well. I support this if only to see Blizzard fail.

Deleted member 56752 · Oct 16, 2019

I'm kind of excited for diablo mobile. I like my iPad

Firemind · Oct 16, 2019

Tuorom said:
Nah D2 synergies didn't increase variety, they just become places to put points into to make your main skill better.

You'd go, I want to make a cold/lightning sorc. Max frozen orb, otherwise use lightning/chain lightning. All skill points into lightning synergies basically other than one point wonders.

I want to make a hammerdin. Max hammer and synergies.

I want to make a trapsin. Max synergies and use death sentry.

Your first example uses two skills so bad example.

Hammerdin requires Enigma to work effectively which is truly endgame gear. Bad example.

Trapsin uses Fire Blast against lightning immunes which synergizes with most of your other skill dumps. Bad example.

I can name most D3 builds that require just holding or spamming a mouse button too. Again, disingenuous.

Cort · Oct 16, 2019

Skill runes and their own passive tree like PoE

Make me care about my character

Ploid 6.0 · Oct 16, 2019

With Path of Exile and Grim Dawn out in the world, they need to do something to make Diablo 4 interesting, or just make it a game that is made to be played on all devices (other than Immortals of course).

Deleted member 57578 · Oct 17, 2019

thomasmahler said:
If you ask me, they need to completely rework the formula. I mean everything.

This.

The only things I'd want for sure are:

Respecs. I realize die-hards play these things like a job, hobby, and family all rolled up in to one, but I don't want to sink 20 hours just to play a new build.
More interaction and strategizing with teammates. I'd like players to interact with each other a la Magicka. I'd also like it players did different things or played different roles. You definitely get that with d3 pros that push GR150, but for the rest of us it's just a rolling blob of DPS.
A better story/lore. What more can really be said at this point about how shitty D3's plot & dialogue was. I really liked the new zones they added over the past few years.

JG_Lionheart · Oct 17, 2019

TBH, I think it's not even about skill trees exactly. I don't really like how some builds in Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 boil down to spam Skill 1 = Profit. I don't necessarily want MMO type hotbar CD cooldowns, but something a bit more interactive would be cool.

MickZan · Oct 17, 2019

Doober said:
This can be a general wishlist thread too but I wanted to start with discussing skill runes. Were they better than skill trees and synergies?

Personally I fucking loved D2's synergy system. Hell I wouldn't even mind if skill trees and permanent point allocation made a comeback. With trees you didn't just have one character class but three, depending on your specific specialty.

Plus I grew to hate how repetitive and uninspired most rune modifiers were.

And for god sakes, minions need to be nerfed. They're practically invincible in D3 and can quickly overwhelm any enemy swarm that gets thrown at you. I love summoners but in D3 they're an insta-win class.

I'd love if they return to permanent character stats. Making a new character if you want to play a different build. Yes it's grindy, but the entire game is grindy. Feels like a reward to invest hours of gametime to make that one 'perfectly' tuned character and own it up on the leaderboards. Chances are next to 0% though. I'm ging to assume they will cater to the mass.

Dixie Flatline · Oct 17, 2019

At this point, if D4 isn't on a phone or tablet, I'll consider that a relief. Everything else is secondary on my concern list.

WarMacheen · Oct 17, 2019

Actual skill trees or gtfo

Devs, just go look at PoE to get some ideas. The runes system in D3 is terrible.

badcrumble · Oct 17, 2019

Firemind said:
Either you're disingenuous or no build was actually like this in D2. Pick one.

Hammerdins were so lame (and had such a vocal obnoxious fanbase that Blizzard basically *always* had to make sure they were viable even as they'd mercilessly nerf plenty of other builds).

Deleted member 7883 · Oct 17, 2019

I loved the skill rune system in D3. I was not a fan of figuring out my build in D2 and other games similar to it. I always had that anxiety in the back of my head going "this isn't optimized enough you're gonna mess up your game" or something, so I usually just googled the best builds for any given game. Which isn't fun, even if I did end up kicking a lot of ass with the build.

With the skill rune system I felt free to experiment and get weird with it, without having to worry about respeccing or optimization or the like. If a build I came up with sucked, just switch out the runes.

The system could definitely be improved. Honestly I'd like to see something completely different in Diablo 4 than what we saw in either D2 or D3... but I really really want to keep the freedom of being able to switch up my build whenever I want. That may make or break the game for me.

Doober · Oct 17, 2019

I'd like for loot/gear to matter more than just being a damage modifier. Early D3 had very little loot, but now there's so goddamn much of it that the joy of finding a new weapon or piece of armor is simply gone. Hell, armor doesn't even really seem to matter anymore beyond cosmetics.

Kalentan · Oct 17, 2019

Genesius said:
I think they need to kind of reboot, try something different.

I would dig it if Diablo became their take on Souls-style games, albeit with more loot.

So Nioh.

Dark_Castle · Oct 17, 2019

Doober said:
This can be a general wishlist thread too but I wanted to start with discussing skill runes. Were they better than skill trees and synergies?

Personally I fucking loved D2's synergy system. Hell I wouldn't even mind if skill trees and permanent point allocation made a comeback. With trees you didn't just have one character class but three, depending on your specific specialty.

Plus I grew to hate how repetitive and uninspired most rune modifiers were.

And for god sakes, minions need to be nerfed. They're practically invincible in D3 and can quickly overwhelm any enemy swarm that gets thrown at you. I love summoners but in D3 they're an insta-win class.

The idea of skill rune is not all bad. The issue is nowadays D3 skill rune choices tend to boil down to which one does the most damage, especially for the attacking ones. Utility skill has some freedom. D4 should do like The Last Epoch with some kind of hybrid system, that'd be pretty cool.

Also not sure what minion you are talking about. Be more specific here, because the last time I checked, Witch Doctor is currently among the weakest GR pushing class right now, and Necromancer while having a strong pet thorns build, that's not because minion is OP but Necro having access to OP thorn setup which is confirmed being nerfed next season.

Are you sure you are not talking about PoE regarding minion stuff? Because minion is actually OP right now in the current league of PoE, and is the meta by far margin. You might be mixing up the two games.

Firemind · Oct 17, 2019

badcrumble said:
Hammerdins were so lame (and had such a vocal obnoxious fanbase that Blizzard basically *always* had to make sure they were viable even as they'd mercilessly nerf plenty of other builds).

I'm not sure what that has to do with my point. Yeah, Hammerdins were OP, but it wasn't like it's readily available to anyone starting out fresh, unless you were botting. It's possibly the only D2 build that just spams the same skill until the last big patch introduced magic immune monsters. Now bots need to run Holy Bolt lol

Edward · Oct 17, 2019

I would like Charms to come back. Make them take up more space so you have to decide what you want to do to sacrifice space for loot. Common, rare, epic, legendary charms. Runes would be cool as well long as the skill runes still exist.

Dark_Castle · Oct 17, 2019

Moebius said:
Is this a joke thread? Of course not. Skill runes were trash. Imagine how bad it would be to replace character building and spells in a D&D campaign with a spell rune system. It's ridiculous and made no sense. There's no sense of building a character when I can switch to whatever I want, whenever I want. I also hated that I couldn't power up a rune by leveling it up.

Give me skill trees and character stat points back so I can have an actual RPG experience. My barbarian should not be wielding a magic wand because that damage output is higher than the sword I have.

I can tell you haven't played D3 or at least not in a long while. I'm not arguing the flaws of skill rune and I understand people might dislike it but in D3's current state, weapon's raw damage number is not THAT important anymore, because scaling damage comes from various legendary effects and set bonuses that boost specific skill of your choice. I don't think Barbarian can even wield wand anymore since loot 2.0 of the expansion, many item bases are generally divided to be used for different class, or at least only Wizard can make use of specific power granted by wands that helps their Wizard skill.

7thFloor · Oct 17, 2019

Nope, skills should be more similar to D2 than D3 in my opinion.

Moebius · Oct 17, 2019

Dark_Castle said:
I can tell you haven't played D3 or at least not in a long while. I'm not arguing the flaws of skill rune and I understand people might dislike it but in D3's current state, weapon's raw damage number is not THAT important anymore, because scaling damage comes from various legendary effects and set bonuses that boost specific skill of your choice. I don't think Barbarian can even wield wand anymore since loot 2.0 of the expansion, many item bases are generally divided to be used for different class, or at least only Wizard can make use of specific power granted by wands that helps their Wizard skill.

I was kind of over-blowing it but it was just really weird playing a mage character and having my damage output of SPELLS depend on what weapon I had equipped. It made no sense and it just wasn't fun because it felt like every character was the same. I cannot see them sticking with this system, but it's current Blizzard, so I don't expect them to do what is right.

Deleted member 57578 · Oct 17, 2019

This is a great example of the sort of teamwork I'd love to participate in:
https://youtu.be/sdhnq2i-4wU

Of course that requires a pre-arranged group where everyone knows exactly what they're doing. I'd love if classes, skills, built in comms, etc... encouraged this sort of play-style for lower skill levels and public games.

Raide · Oct 17, 2019

Yeah, I would prefer the Diablo 2 rune word stuff. It was more fun to find the runes and then figure out what the words were.

Bookkoo · Oct 17, 2019

Diablo III was my first Diablo game so I am unfamiliar with what came before it. I felt the runes were a little tough to keep track of having to check every level what was being unlocked and what i had. Coming from an MMO genre I much prefer skill trees

Raide · Oct 17, 2019

Jooxed said:
Diablo III was my first Diablo game so I am unfamiliar with what came before it. I felt the runes were a little tough to keep track of having to check every level what was being unlocked and what i had. Coming from an MMO genre I much prefer skill trees

Simply put, you had the sockets and put gems in. The runes were parts of words. So you had to collect multiple runes and arrange them in the correct order to activate the rune word ability.

Survivortype · Oct 17, 2019

I liked the skill tree from D2.
It made each character feel more unique.

V_Arnold · Oct 17, 2019

Skill runes, yes.
Weapon % -based damage for skills: fuck no.
Infinite scaling: how about no.

Zukuu · Oct 17, 2019

Build variety was abysmal in Diablo 3.

boy power · Oct 17, 2019

I'm not sure what I want because while I love D2, it was pretty automated. Enough str/dex for gear, rest to vit, energy being useless unless you went ES sorc. Level main skill and it's synergies to max. That's pretty much it. I'm not saying D3 is better, but D2 wasn't all the immersive either.

Firemind · Oct 17, 2019

boy power said:
I'm not sure what I want because while I love D2, it was pretty automated. Enough str/dex for gear, rest to vit, energy being useless unless you went ES sorc. Level main skill and it's synergies to max. That's pretty much it. I'm not saying D3 is better, but D2 wasn't all the immersive either.

The fact that you can build a melee sorc already gives D2 the edge.

boy power · Oct 17, 2019

Firemind said:
The fact that you can build a melee sorc already gives D2 the edge.

Pretty sure you can build anything in D2 as well as D3. Whether you'll have fun and/or if it's optimal is another thing entirely.

Backers · Oct 17, 2019

PoE is killing the diablo-like genre as well as WoW is killing the MMORPG genre so i don't wait anything from Diablo 4 (and god knows i would love it if it turned out to be a great game).

I don't believe in blizzard anymore for creating new great games...

Firemind · Oct 17, 2019

boy power said:
Pretty sure you can build anything in D2 as well as D3. Whether you'll have fun and/or if it's optimal is another thing entirely.

Pretty sure D3 has no Javazons. Or Druids. Or Zealots that shoot Frozen Orbs. Etc.

EternalWinter · Oct 17, 2019

To do any meaningful rifting, you have to get yourself a nice strong armor set and when you have that set, you're going to use these skills with these runes with every little exceptions. Maybe you can change a rune here and there. Maybe you can swap one skill. That's about all the flexibility you're going to get if you want to use that set effectively.

It would be nice to see that changed.

Do you want skill runes to return in Diablo 4?

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