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EvilChameleon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,793
Ohio
"I'm delighted that the Doctor is finally presenting as a woman..." I love that wording. Doctor Who is the only acknowledged transgender popular hero I'm aware of, unless you count Virginia Woolf's Orlando.

Is the Doctor transgender though? I could see if 12 regenerated into a man and then said "nah, I'm not having this" and then became a woman. But this was a standard regeneration. Like 10 said, it's a lottery. Only the 2nd and 8th doctors were offered choices of what they regenerated into. Everything else has been random.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
Is the Doctor transgender though? I could see if 12 regenerated into a man and then said "nah, I'm not having this" and then became a woman. But this was a standard regeneration. Like 10 said, it's a lottery. Only the 2nd and 8th doctors were offered choices of what they regenerated into. Everything else has been random.

This is a complicated question. I would imagine, based on the Doctor's statements in S10, that gender isn't really a concept Time Lords treat with the same level of finality and solidity that humans do.

I don't see anything wrong with trans people using Thirteen as an example of representation if they choose to, but I don't think the character would see it that way.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
"I'm delighted that the Doctor is finally presenting as a woman..." I love that wording. Doctor Who is the only acknowledged transgender popular hero I'm aware of, unless you count Virginia Woolf's Orlando.

Is the Doctor transgender though? I could see if 12 regenerated into a man and then said "nah, I'm not having this" and then became a woman. But this was a standard regeneration. Like 10 said, it's a lottery. Only the 2nd and 8th doctors were offered choices of what they regenerated into. Everything else has been random.

It's pretty random in humans, too. The only difference is that with humans it's a one-shot. I'd argue that, viewed through a human lens, Time Lords are fundamentally gender-fucked. Their presentation appears to be mediated by external biology.

The same is true, as I hinted earlier, of Orlando. In Woolf's novel Orlando starts as male then goes into a deep sleep from which she wakes up female. Like a Time Lord, Orlando lives for centuries.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,617
Australia
I guess technically the Doctor is, and isn't transgender. is it the same body each regeneration? Is it a body transformed by the regeneration process? How much of the Doctor's physical form changes from body to body. Do scars (and tattoos in the case of the 3rd doctor) carry over? Its something something I'm not too fussed on the details. He's turning into a she for this regeneration. She will likely turn back to a he for future regenerations here and there. This stuff and the distinctions are very important for some peeps, neither here nor there for others. Either way, it's not an area I'm too familiar with. But Doctor Who is so...

As for Who characters who changed genders (mid-story, too), there was Eldrad. Male crystalline creature from the planet Kastria, was dead for centuries, his hand was found in a Quarry by Sarah Jane Smith, Eldrad patterned a body after Sarah before later reverting to his original form. But remember
Eldrad must live!
.

31-eldrad-must-live.png

latest

Eldrad must live!
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Do scars (and tattoos in the case of the 3rd doctor) carry over?

Don't think so, but your comment reminds me of this from The Doctor's Wife:


DOCTOR: There are no Time Lords left anywhere in the universe. But the universe isn't where we're going. See that snake?
(The Ourobouros, the snake swallowing its own tail.)
DOCTOR: The mark of the Corsair. Fantastic bloke. He had that snake as a tattoo in every regeneration. Didn't feel like himself unless he had the tattoo. Or herself, a couple of times. Ooo, she was a bad girl.

That's completely irrelevant to your question of course, as the Corsair clearly had to have the tattoo redone on each regeneration. I just like the way Gaiman introduces the concept of gender change into New Who. I don't know the novels or the audio stories, so I don't know whether this was widely discussed before that episode.

Eldrad must live!
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,611
Australia
I think an advanced species that conceptualises gender differently to us (or at least, like's to think they do; as Bill says, they still call themselves Time Lords), who change body many times over centuries of life, isn't really the same as a human experiencing gender dysphoria. I think the closer parallel in reality would be to bigender/nonbinary people who present as either or neither rather than just male->female or female->male trans people.

That's not to say that gender nonconforming people of all stripes shouldn't take positive things from this new change for the Doctor, of course. Thirteen seeing herself and saying "oh, brilliant!" is a powerful moment of affirmation for both cis girls and anyone going through any kind of gender transition.
 

Vibranium

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,523
Well, I guess I'll post a quick blurb that I liked the Christmas special and how it was very small-scale, especially for Moffat. Certain elements of the First Doctor felt like a regression of his character development (he should have been far nicer to Bill at this point) but it makes sense with the Timey-Wimey explanation of also why he looks different (same deal with 5 in Time Crash).

I find it really cool that both the Second and Thirteenth Doctors have had their old rings fall off due to their fingers changing. A little callback to The Power of the Daleks that I'm not sure many people picked up.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,611
Australia
How does one get a print copy of just that issue in the US?

Wouldn't regular newsagents carry it? I know America is different to Australia, both generally and in terms of their relationship to Doctor Who, but while I've never actually bought DWM I've always seen it (usually a month behind) in stock with other pop culture magazines here.

...do you guys have newsagents?
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
What was the general consensus of Capaldi's third season? I'm midway through it and am floored. Wasn't the biggest fan of the first two really (they got progressively better , I thought)
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
What was the general consensus of Capaldi's third season? I'm midway through it and am floored. Wasn't the biggest fan of the first two really (they got progressively better , I thought)

People seemed to like it, for the most part, but I don't think it was as...emotionally charged for people as the last few seasons were, both for better and for worse. The best way to put it is that it was a "back to basics" kind of season after the experimental elements of the two Twelve/Clara seasons with a more traditional-style Doctor/companion relationship. Bill was largely received pretty positively, for the most part.

The big thing that seemed to be an issue was that the Monks trilogy kind of came in at the worst possible time and kind of stopped Bill's development arc in its tracks because the focus sort of shifted to "will the Doctor really rehabilitate Missy?" for the last few episodes leading into the finale. I think as public opinion settles over time, it'll be viewed as a season that started strongly and then tried to do way too much leading into the exit of the Doctor and the companion and couldn't quite hold it all up.

Most people that I've seen generally enjoyed the two-part finale though, with World Enough taking higher marks than Falls.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,605
I'm of the opinion that S8 > 10 > 9, with World Enough and Time + The Doctor Falls being Moffat's best ever finale.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
I'm of the opinion that S8 > 10 > 9, with World Enough and Time + The Doctor Falls being Moffat's best ever finale.

I need to rewatch all of S8 again and see how much I like the latter half. I always kind of stop after Orient Express/Flatline because I just love them both so much and I don't really want to see more Danny Pink.

As of right now, my ranking is S9 > S10 = S8 >>> Sleep No More >>>>>> In the Forest of the Night. S10 didn't have any awful episodes, but I think Heaven Sent, Flatline and Orient will still pretty much define Twelve's era for me overall.
 

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
679
I need to rewatch all of S8 again and see how much I like the latter half. I always kind of stop after Orient Express/Flatline because I just love them both so much and I don't really want to see more Danny Pink.

As of right now, my ranking is S9 > S10 = S8 >>> Sleep No More >>>>>> In the Forest of the Night. S10 didn't have any awful episodes, but I think Heaven Sent, Flatline and Orient will still pretty much define Twelve's era for me overall.

Huh, see I think the first half of S8 is pretty meh (outside of Listen), and then picks up at Kill the Moon onwards (I'm counting Last Christmas and ignoring Forest).

Conversely I think the first half of S10 is fantastic, then goes down hill after Extremis, finale aside.

Honestly my appreciation for S9 grows by the day. In terms of character and thematic consistency it's pretty off the charts.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,515
Huh, see I think the first half of S8 is pretty meh (outside of Listen), and then picks up at Kill the Moon onwards (I'm counting Last Christmas and ignoring Forest).

Conversely I think the first half of S10 is fantastic, then goes down hill after Extremis, finale aside.

Honestly my appreciation for S9 grows by the day. In terms of character and thematic consistency it's pretty off the charts.

I'm with you on S10. I like the first half, it kind of feels like a Tennant season in terms of the breezy feel of the episodes. But after Extremis, it gets bogged down on plot and the focus shifts to Missy and the second half just isn't as good, especially because Bill's characterization basically stops going anywhere until World Enough.

S9 is incredibly strong as far as characterization and theme development. I love that arc so much that the spec script I'm working on is actually set during the tail end of that season as the Twelve/Clara death spiral reaches its fiercest pitch.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,910
Watching this interview with Steven Moffat on his time as Who writer, and a funny story about how he named River came up.

He said that he and Russell T Davies had a point where they were trying to make Doctor Who titles with rude acronyms in them to troll online message board posters. He came up with A River Song Ending. Russell asked him "who is River Song?", and Steven replied "I don't know, I'll just name a character River Song".
 
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Block 2 of series 11 is currently filming- episodes 2 and 3, directed by Mark Tonderai.

Bradley Walsh has been spotted on a flight to South Africa.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
So it is more of a who is in which episode instead of who is casted ?

Yes, but in part it's about the travel, too.

A UK newspaper reported that there'd be an episode set in Africa in the past where one of the companions would "learn more about their past", and now we've got a principal star of the show flying out there...
 
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Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Interesting stats from Tom Spilsbury here.

Average rating by Doctor:

Average weekly chart position by Doctor, and amount of times they hit the top 10:


For all the talk of the show's major slump in the ratings, in context there's not a lot separating Eccleston and Capaldi relative to the rest of TV.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
For all the talk of the show's major slump in the ratings, in context there's not a lot separating Eccleston and Capaldi relative to the rest of TV.

These are great. In fairness, and playing devil's advocate, mind -- Eccleston's series was a show coming back and was building off zero momentum. Everyone after him has an unfair weighting of the top ten numbers too, as they all did a few Christmas episodes each and those always make the top ten because it's Christmas Day. The fall from 11th to 18th is pretty modest though, that's quite good. Really hope Jodie can mark a Tennant-like jump again.
 
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Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
These are great. In fairness, and playing devil's advocate, mind -- Eccleston's series was a show coming back and was building off zero momentum. Everyone after him has an unfair weighting of the top ten numbers too, as they all did a few Christmas episodes each and those always make the top ten because it's Christmas Day. The fall from 11th to 18th is pretty modest though, that's quite good. Really hope Jodie can mark a Tennant-like jump again.
All perfectly fair and true, although nothing they did for any Capaldi episode matches the publicity blitz that they laid out for Rose. Who knows what might have happened if they plastered Capaldi and Mackie on every available vertical surface?
 

infiniteloop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,202
Tennant had such an impressive run for ratings + public popularity. wonder if they can ever capture that again or the interest had waned.
 
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Tennant had such an impressive run for ratings + public popularity. wonder if they can ever capture that again or the interest had waned.
Tennant's era was such a perfect storm, particularly from Voyage of the Damned onwards. I don't see the show being legitimately the biggest thing on TV again any time soon.
 

GSR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,660
Yeah, I think (or at least like to think) Jodie will give a boost to popularity and mindshare, but the Tennant days of dominating the TV landscape in Britain or the Smith days of being a massive hit in America (and elsewhere) are gone for good I think, the former more than the latter.

Anecdotally (American here) it seems like the show has had a pretty big fall-off in mindshare during Capaldi's run. I remember there being a lot of hype around the 50th in particular but I hear much less talk about the show these days than I used to.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,617
Australia
I think the stylistic change- where the show became less an adventure series as it was for most of RTD's run and more or a puzzle-monster of the week/what metaphor or abstract concept can we turn tangible this week. Some people love stuff like Listen, Hell Bent and Knock Knock but I can't imagine most regular viewers wouldn't have been bored out of their minds. Capaldi deserved better.

You never can tell what the public respond to. Jodie Whittaker will have a lot of goodwill going into the new season.

I mean the show's often had patches where it's better than other times, and more popular than other times (and not always at the same time. One of Tom Baker's best seasons (IMO, his last) was lowest rated while his worst (S17) had the highest ratings ever (ITV strike for several weeks meaning nothing but BBC and record ratings for the show).

Also- I finally got around to watching the Bluray of the reconstructed Power of the Daleks. Fucking loved it, despite the cheesy animations. I think I've listed to the audio versions once or twice but not for a looooong time. Some of the classic series where whole episodes are taken up with the Doctor being locked up and escaping, or just mistrusted by allies, show what a difference adding psychic paper made to the show.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
In an amazing twist of stupidity, today's papers are reporting the creators of the character of the Brigadier are considering legal action against the BBC for featuring a character related to him in the Christmas Special. In many cases, early Who creations had their rights retained by their writers (most famously Terry Nation & the Daleks) and so permission has to be gained to use them or do anything new with them - unlike with Kate, permission wasn't obtained. So dumb.
 

Stalker

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,726
In an amazing twist of stupidity, today's papers are reporting the creators of the character of the Brigadier are considering legal action against the BBC for featuring a character related to him in the Christmas Special. In many cases, early Who creations had their rights retained by their writers (most famously Terry Nation & the Daleks) and so permission has to be gained to use them or do anything new with them - unlike with Kate, permission wasn't obtained. So dumb.
I mean it's possible they are considering it but they will get laughed out the courts
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,910
I think the stylistic change- where the show became less an adventure series as it was for most of RTD's run and more or a puzzle-monster of the week/what metaphor or abstract concept can we turn tangible this week. Some people love stuff like Listen, Hell Bent and Knock Knock but I can't imagine most regular viewers wouldn't have been bored out of their minds. Capaldi deserved better.
.

From a ratings perspective he could have done a bit better by having a different (shittier) writing style, but there was never a world where Peter Capaldi was going to be as popular as Matt Smith or David Tennant. A significant part of their appeal (and a big reason the show had ballooned so much in popularity during late 10/early 11) was a new portion of the audience relating to the Doctor as more of a dashing romantic lead as opposed to the goofy grumpy uncle. There was a reason, prior to Capaldi's casting, people doubted the BBC would allow them to cast an older Doctor again. Everyone had to know this was going to be a step down for Who in terms of it's populism.

I think Jodie can pull that back. However noisy the naysayers are about a female Doctor, I think the sheer interest in a new perspective will get a lot of returning/fresh eyes onto it. After Wonder Woman, I don't think you can undersell the power of giving little girls something to look up to. And for the men, well, Jodie is pretty fun to look at. The concern is, as ever, Chris Chibnall.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
From a ratings perspective he could have done a bit better by having a different (shittier) writing style, but there was never a world where Peter Capaldi was going to be as popular as Matt Smith or David Tennant. A significant part of their appeal (and a big reason the show had ballooned so much in popularity during late 10/early 11) was a new portion of the audience relating to the Doctor as more of a dashing romantic lead as opposed to the goofy grumpy uncle. There was a reason, prior to Capaldi's casting, people doubted the BBC would allow them to cast an older Doctor again. Everyone had to know this was going to be a step down for Who in terms of it's populism.

I think Jodie can pull that back. However noisy the naysayers are about a female Doctor, I think the sheer interest in a new perspective will get a lot of returning/fresh eyes onto it. After Wonder Woman, I don't think you can undersell the power of giving little girls something to look up to. And for the men, well, Jodie is pretty fun to look at. The concern is, as ever, Chris Chibnall.

Mind that the point they're making about show format has little to do with casting though, as while I believe what you say about Capaldi even with Smith as the show went heavier in that direction the UK ratings shifted accordingly. Series 5, his simplest, and the most like the adventure format of RTD's era, is well above the rest.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,910
Mind that the point they're making about show format has little to do with casting though, as while I believe what you say about Capaldi even with Smith as the show went heavier in that direction the UK ratings shifted accordingly. Series 5, his simplest, and the most like the adventure format of RTD's era, is well above the rest.

There's no doubt that the lighter, more digestible Who is more palatable to a wider cross section of the audience. I just totally believe that there is no structure that would have given Capaldi that level of crossover success based on the new audience created during 10.

I do wonder about the iPlayer and piracy numbers, though. Tennant basically ended right as other ways to watch the show exploded. The total viewer gap is probably less than the ratings suggest.
 

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
679
It's really great to see the show finally going to new places to shoot. Hope they can keep it up over the coming years
I was rewatching Vincent and the Doctor the other day and the episode still looks stunning, mostly due to the location shooting. This scene in particular just feels very 'of a place':
Outside of Smile and the Zygon stuff they kinda moved away from it in the Capaldi era which is a shame. He was a weirdly contemporary Doctor in the end.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I was rewatching Vincent and the Doctor the other day and the episode still looks stunning, mostly due to the location shooting. This scene in particular just feels very 'of a place':

Outside of Smile and the Zygon stuff they kinda moved away from it in the Capaldi era which is a shame. He was a weirdly contemporary Doctor in the end.

They did do about the same amount of international filming, but in Capaldi's era it was generally more subtle than the "look! an international location!" stuff in the Tennant/Smith eras, really. Like they went to Tenerife to double as Skaro in Series 9, but given what it was you never really had a chance to think of it as being an international location (indeed a lot of the time you could mistake it for a matte painting at a glance thanks to the CGI Dalek buildings grafted onto it), things like that.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,244
I was rewatching Vincent and the Doctor the other day and the episode still looks stunning, mostly due to the location shooting. This scene in particular just feels very 'of a place':

Outside of Smile and the Zygon stuff they kinda moved away from it in the Capaldi era which is a shame. He was a weirdly contemporary Doctor in the end.
But, after s5, I'm struggling to remember any international filming locations besides Utah for Smith's era... Maybe wherever they shot A Town Called Mercy...? But that's it

Like APZonerunner said, during Capaldi's time they went to Valencia and several of the Canary Islands. But they went there often... I think Fuerteventura was Gallifrey, New Mexico for the Zygon two-parter, and probably Utah for the flashforward bits in Hell Bent.

I'm not complaining, I think they made great use of all those places, but it's also time to go somewhere the show hasn't been to before.