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Doctor Who Series 11 |OT|- She’s Here, and It’s About Time

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Dwebble
Oct 25, 2017
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I watched Kerblam twice.
So what part of that episode equates to the Doctor murdering a kid, rather than the Doctor disposing of the threat and the murderous terrorist who caused it getting caught up in the aftermath?
Also watched Demons of Punjab twice and didn’t find it to be a good episode at all, 13 felt like a powerless and weak Doctor, half the threat was wasted on a red herring alien threat which turned out to be underwhelming, there was nothing useful for Ryan and Graham to do, the guest actors weren’t good. The only part I liked about it was the historical elements.
I don’t agree with basically any of that, but that’s fine.

What makes it “pointless”, though?
 
Oct 27, 2017
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So what part of that episode equates to the Doctor murdering a kid, rather than the Doctor disposing of the threat and the murderous terrorist who caused it getting caught up in the aftermath?
I’ve talked about this too many times here, but 13 redirects the package to the factory which is fine but THEN when the threat is neutralized she chooses to blow them up, at the structural level of the factory and while Charlie is beside them. There was absolutely no need to do what she did.

She’s really been the worst part of the last few episodes.
 
OP
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Dwebble
Oct 25, 2017
2,192
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I’ve talked about this too many times here, but the Doctor redirects the package to the factory which is fine but THEN when the threat is neutralized she chooses to blow them up, at the structural level of the factory and while Charlie is beside them. There was absolutely no need to do what she did.
The threat was absolutely not neutralised- the bombs were still active, and the man who had control over the system had just escaped. She tried to get him to come to safety, but he wouldn’t.

It’s standard “Doctor gets villain to be hoisted by their own petard” stuff, and to portray it as her “killing a kid” is just daft.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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The threat was absolutely not neutralised- the bombs were still active, and the man who had control over the system had just escaped. She tried to get him to come to safety, but he wouldn’t.

It’s standard “Doctor gets villain to be hoisted by their own petard” stuff, and to portray it as her “killing a kid” is just daft.
There was absolutely no indication that Charlie was still a threat with his device destroyed and the only thing that was going to make the bombs go off was popping the bubble wrap. There was no urgent need to blow them up and they could have been disposed of in space/somewhere where they couldn’t cause damage. This isn’t something I see as being debatable.

Edit: also consider that he was standing in the middle of an army of robots that 13 now had control over and could have restrained him with. And another thing that didn’t make sense was why the system thought it needed to look for outside help.
 
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Dwebble
Oct 25, 2017
2,192
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the Under the Lake story, really? Not the best episodes ever but still far more interesting than anything this series and there’s nothing particularly offensive about them.
Ooh, I fucking HATE those episodes. Generic, boilerplate plot, without any attempt at subversion or interest, palpable running on the spot for the sole purpose of filling time, shoddy unbelievable character work, rehashing of old ideas (THRILL as they bring back the Tivoli- without David Walliams this time!), wrapping the whole thing up in a flashy bootstrap paradox rather than actually bothering to write a story... God, it’s rubbish. The deaf character’s the only thing even close to a new or interesting idea for Doctor Who in the whole thing, and it’s not like she’s some masterpiece of character work. Toby Whithouse’s complete inability to write a good episode of Doctor Who post-The God Complex is actually remarkable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Just rewatching Series 9 and wanted to post an appreciation for the cinematography. A totally different look from S8, dark with more muted colours and rich gold lighting.

Just imagine we were getting Chiball meh visual direction after this instead of before going in a big downwards quality slope, people would be pissed!

Oh wait...
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Ooh, I fucking HATE those episodes. Generic, boilerplate plot, without any attempt at subversion or interest, palpable running on the spot for the sole purpose of filling time, shoddy unbelievable character work, rehashing of old ideas (THRILL as they bring back the Tivoli- without David Walliams this time!), wrapping the whole thing up in a flashy bootstrap paradox rather than actually bothering to write a story... God, it’s rubbish. The deaf character’s the only thing even close to a new or interesting idea for Doctor Who in the whole thing, and it’s not like she’s some masterpiece of character work. Toby Whithouse’s complete inability to write a good episode of Doctor Who post-The God Complex is actually remarkable.
I don’t have the time to defend the episodes now and I doubt I’d change your feelings on them anyway, but I just want to say it features maybe the best cold opening in Doctor Who.

 
Oct 27, 2017
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Series 8 had Robot of Sherwood, Time Heist, The Caretaker and In the Forest of the Night, all of which I think are worse than any series 11 guest-written episode.
How dare you. The Caretaker is a goddamn hilarious and criminally underrated episode!

Funny you mention Time Heist, that’s probably a good reference point for S11 as a whole for me — fine on its own merits if a little confused, but otherwise doesn’t leave much of a lasting impression. That said, I am a couple weeks behind, so maybe these last couple episodes were a big turnaround.

I also think the Under The Lake two-parter is pretty close to unwatchable garbage, I’m afraid- far worse than any series 11 episode, and pretty close to Modern Who’s nadir.
I don’t really have any strong feelings one way or the other about the flood two-parter but I could prob name about 20 episodes that are much much worse.
 
I unapologetically support Robot of Sherwood. I mean, it introduced 12's most dangerous weapon, which would make several appearances afterward - the mighty spoon.

I don’t have the time to defend the episodes now and I doubt I’d change your feelings on them anyway, but I just want to say it features maybe the best cold opening in Doctor Who.

That intro was far, far too 4th wall breakingly on the nose for my taste.
 
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Dwebble
Oct 25, 2017
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I don’t have the time to defend the episodes now and I doubt I’d change your feelings on them anyway, but I just want to say it features maybe the best cold opening in Doctor Who.

You see, I don't like that at all- it feels like it was added because the episode was running short and Whithouse had accidentally written a paradox that was totally unsupported in the narrative.

I have never bought the narrative that the Moffat era was more interested in timey-wimey slight of hand over good storytelling, but that scene's Exhibit A for the prosecution- navel-gazing, fourth wall-breaking, self-satisfied smugness.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I don’t really have any strong feelings one way or the other about the flood two-parter but I could prob name about 20 episodes that are much much worse.
Yep, the olympics one during the tennant era, for starters. REALLY boring Doctor Who is worst than bad doctor who for me.
 
I don't get the hatred for a lot of episodes being described as bad. Robot of Sherwood in particular is a joy from beginning to end. The actual Robin Hood, the real moustache-twirling Sheriff of Nottingham, Doctor Who's conviction that they cannot be real, the castle that's really a spaceship, and Clara's amusement at the subversion of his expectations. And I didn't even mention the killer robots!
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Im of the opposite position on Before The Flood. I feel like the Bootstrap Paradox is what makes the episode as it leans into the more sci-fi side of the show (however silly the end result may be)
 
Oct 8, 2018
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Sydney
So I just watched the witch episode last night, and my thoughts so far:
Jodie is a pretty enjoyable doctor, still feels like a mix between 10 and 11. Feels a bit less adept socially and more impulsive overall, although Its been a while since I saw the previous episodes, the doctor has always been been these things, just not to this extent, I would say 11 was more impulsive, 12 worse with people, but Jodie seems to have both I think, just not as bad for each compared to those 2.
During the witch episode it was so glaringly obvious that she was going to get herself accused of being a witch because she just can't tone down her doctorness for just a few moments.
Graham is great, always has cool head and comes across as very wise. I like seeing his attempt to connect with Ryan.
Ryan is pretty good as well, Seems a bit hot headed and has a drive to prove himself. I like seeing him open up to others about the troubles he has had with his mothers passing and his fathers abandonment.
Yaz is boring. I'm sorry but it often feels like shes just... there, and doesn't do a lot.
I liked it more when it was 1 or 2 companions. 3 is pushing the limit I think, feels too stretched out.
I don't think I like the new writer, Chibnal. This season feels like its missing... Something. Can't put my finger on it. Feels less magical.

I do apologize if I seem to be getting really off impressions of these episodes and characters compared to you guys, I've always been awful at analyzing story and characters and what have you. I was bad at high school english. I may also be misrembering previous seasons and doctors, and that may effect my thoughts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,161
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So I just watched the witch episode last night, and my thoughts so far:
Jodie is a pretty enjoyable doctor, still feels like a mix between 10 and 11. Feels a bit less adept socially and more impulsive overall, although Its been a while since I saw the previous episodes, the doctor has always been been these things, just not to this extent, I would say 11 was more impulsive, 12 worse with people, but Jodie seems to have both I think, just not as bad for each compared to those 2.
During the witch episode it was so glaringly obvious that she was going to get herself accused of being a witch because she just can't tone down her doctorness for just a few moments.
Graham is great, always has cool head and comes across as very wise. I like seeing his attempt to connect with Ryan.
Ryan is pretty good as well, Seems a bit hot headed and has a drive to prove himself. I like seeing him open up to others about the troubles he has had with his mothers passing and his fathers abandonment.
Yaz is boring. I'm sorry but it often feels like shes just... there, and doesn't do a lot.
I liked it more when it was 1 or 2 companions. 3 is pushing the limit I think, feels too stretched out.
I don't think I like the new writer, Chibnal. This season feels like its missing... Something. Can't put my finger on it. Feels less magical.

I do apologize if I seem to be getting really off impressions of these episodes and characters compared to you guys, I've always been awful at analyzing story and characters and what have you. I was bad at high school english. I may also be misrembering previous seasons and doctors, and that may effect my thoughts.
Nah, dont worry, a lot of us have exactly the same opinion as you of everything that you said in your post.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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For all my mixed feelings about Clara as a character, Jenna Coleman is one of the best actors in all of NuWho.

All this 12 talk is making me all nostalgic for his run.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Season 19 and 18 ordered and here's hoping Amazon manages properly and that the BBC didn't mess up anythign on the set again and requires another partial reprint.
They still haven't bothered doing a proper Season 12 release despite the problems and ebay is filled with way too overpriced copies.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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I don't get the hatred for a lot of episodes being described as bad. Robot of Sherwood in particular is a joy from beginning to end. The actual Robin Hood, the real moustache-twirling Sheriff of Nottingham, Doctor Who's conviction that they cannot be real, the castle that's really a spaceship, and Clara's amusement at the subversion of his expectations. And I didn't even mention the killer robots!
Plus fencing with a spoon! When I did 12 for Halloween I carried both a Sonic and a spoon.

It's not a great episode to me, but it's fun enough. Never got the hate for it.

I also liked Before the Flood/Under the Lake just fine.
 
Robot of Sherwood is harmless fun. It’s Gatiss’ best episode.
and only good one
On rewatching, I'd tend to rate his more serious episodes higher. Cold War, in particular, is an excellent revival of a classic "monster." Gatiss has often been lucky in the casting of his episodes, but a lot of it is down to his eye for historical detail.

The Steam Punk episode is also worthy of mention (Empress of Mars?) and in an earlier post I've already described my recent rewatching of Sleep no More. The latter shows his respect for Classic Who lore.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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My favorite part of Hell Bent is when the guy in the flying gunship thing tells the Doctor to lay down any weapons he had, and then the spoon he was eating soup with landed onto the table with a thud. Great gag.
Loved that as well.

I think there was one more spoon callback, when he was having his 3-week medieval party, maybe?
 
Oct 26, 2017
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Has anyone else just stopped watching? Makes me really sad because I was super excited for this season, the show isn't bad but it is not my cup of tea anymore.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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I'd probably put The Unquiet Dead and The Crimson Horror over it.
The one with with the bug hanging off that old lady’s tit?! No thank you.

On rewatching, I'd tend to rate his more serious episodes higher. Cold War, in particular, is an excellent revival of a classic "monster." Gatiss has often been lucky in the casting of his episodes, but a lot of it is down to his eye for historical detail.
Oh Gatiss did Cold War? I liked that one too, just a really all around solid episode.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,868
1
Has anyone else just stopped watching? Makes me really sad because I was super excited for this season, the show isn't bad but it is not my cup of tea anymore.
I can't watch this season because I don't have BBC America anymore and they won't let me stream it online without paying extra, so I've pretty much just been absorbing y'all's impressions from afar and rewatching old seasons on Amazon Prime Video.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Excuse me, that's national treasure Dame Diana Rigg's tit to you.
Haha was it? I don’t even remember that was her.

It and the (severely underrated) Hide were probably the highlights of series 7.
Hide is good. I think Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS might actually be underrated... like most I was pretty disappointed with its wasted potential the first time around, but for whatever reason I liked it a lot more the second time, for all the exploration stuff. The whole subplot with the brothers, though, is just one of the worst, most baffling things ever written for the show though.

Name of the Doctor is my favorite of S7 and one of my favorites of that whole run really
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Brazil
Series 8 had Robot of Sherwood, Time Heist, The Caretaker and In the Forest of the Night, all of which I think are worse than any series 11 guest-written episode.
I think Robot of Sherwood is fun and I like Time Heist

But "In the Forest of Night" is like top 3 worst doctor who episodes for me because it is just ... boring. Like even the commonly called worst episodes have a thing or two that are exciting.

What I want to say is that I agree with the idea of the quote because forest of the night is so bad that compensates how I like the other 2
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,982
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Brazil
Forest of the Night is my least-favorite NuWho episode by quite a margin.
Absolutely. I just don't say THE worst episode of doctor who ever because there are some episodes from old who that aged pretty poorly both in ideas and in timing/pacing which were totally ok for its time

....or maybe I just didn't watched the REALLY bad old who episodes since my old who knowledge is pretty limited =P
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Forest of the Night looks too nice too nice for me to rate it as the absolute worst, and because it’s aiming to be a kid’s story

Flatline > Dark Water is definitely a better episode flow.
 
Oct 29, 2017
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Has anyone else just stopped watching? Makes me really sad because I was super excited for this season, the show isn't bad but it is not my cup of tea anymore.
Yup. I like Jodie fine, but I find the show as a whole less interesting and poorly written.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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I like Jodie/13 when she’s doing her quickly Doctorism moments like talking about getting a sofa but I just haven’t liked how she’s dealt with anything important to the story in all the episodes, so she’s easily my least favourite new Doctor at the moment.
 
I've said before that I love Forest of the Night for its beautiful vision of the busy Cromwell Road brought to a standstill by trees. The theme of adults not listening to children is also close to my heart.

There is also something about the piece's resemblance to a Shakespearean pastoral idyll, with Clara and Danny as a shepherd and shepherdess and their flock of children. And yes, the pastoral elements are really obvious and intentional. On that topic, I surely wouldn't be the first person to remark on Doctor Who and Susan as Prospero and Miranda in An Unearthly Child.

The same writer came back for Series 10's extraordinary Smile. The resolution of that story is quintessential Doctor Who. The Vardy bear no guilt or malice towards the human colonists, and their massive powers have the capability to turn the planet into a paradise for themselves and humans. So he reboots the Vardy and orders the humans to negotiate as equal partners. Coexist or perish.
 
On that note, the Doctor telling that girl not to take her medication really rubbed me the wrong way.
Yeah. I know if one of my adult kids doesn't take their medication, things go south very fast. I don't happen to agree with the writer on quite a few subjects (he's a Catholic and I'm an atheist, for instance) but I appreciate his skills as one of the most talented living English writers.