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Doctor Who Series 12 |OT| Spyfall Is Where We Start

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,380
Yeah. I wonder if there is a plan to use him again.
Heading up Jack Robertson's social media team?

It does feel like a loose end deliberately left dangling, although also his finale takes place separately from everyone else, so there's no-one directly around to, well, stop him.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,467
I wonder if there's more to his backstory or if he really tried to destroy the human race because mommy didn't love him.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,882
Oman
Didn't know the Doctor could erase memories 🤔

Rather enjoyed this 2 parter TBH.

Jodie <3 and All in all I like this new Master
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
actually super disappointed that those aliens weren't the Boneless, especially since it's not like they were interesting otherwise
 
OP
OP
Paradox

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
299
The thing about the Doctor and Missy's relationship is that Twelve never knew he'd actually redeemed her. The Doctor gives his speech about being kind for kindness' sake to the Master and Missy. The Master basically tells him to fuck off; Missy then goes with him rather than stay with the Doctor. We all know that Missy told the Master it was finally time to stand with the Doctor, but for all the Doctor knows Missy just opted to stay evil. So when Missy regenerates into a Master who is once again evil, from the Doctor's pov there's been no regression.
But even prior to the ending, the two had at least reached a point where the Doctor trusted her enough to 'lead' an adventure with his companions (which ultimately led to Bill getting killed, but hey). I think the bigger issue isn't whether the Doctor knew that Missy had turned good, but that the audience knew. By the same token if, for instance, the Master and Missy had been talking and had dramatically revealed that they'd....killed the Doctor's mother off-screen or something, it's still something worth addressing even if the Doctor isn't privy to it.

Like, logically, in-universe it's definitely possible to explain it away, but as an audience member it still remains narratively unsatisfying to have absolutely no-one acknowledge it even in passing. I did like the head-cannon someone had though that Missy somehow survived being killed yet again, went back to Gallifrey to show off her 'goodness' and was welcomed in because of it, realised whatever the truth about the Timeless Child is, and then killed everyone on Gallifrey herself included, thus finally regenerating into Dhawan.

Yeah. I wonder if there is a plan to use him again.
People thought the same about Chris Noth last year. And Rosa's Space Racist. I'm sure they'll all be brought back as a superteam of obnoxious male villains for Jodie's final episode.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,834
Oh yeah....
I must've forgotten then ;P
For me, I remember in the Lodger where James Corden as Craig gets confused about what's going on and 11 just head butts him pychically and it fixes the problem. Series 11 also revealed if you fuck in the tardis your baby can become half time lord lol.
 

Metallix87

Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,690
I took that as more of a "watch out there are other people around" when she was firing the gun. They'd all left when the grenade came out.
I doubt it. She also used similar disapproving language last season when Ryan used a gun against robots. Plus, as shown in last year's New Year's special, she has no problem endangering the lives of others to stop the villain of the week.
 

KingDirk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,092
The gun thing for 13 feels really inelegant. Like, when 10 got upset with humans for using violence it was rooted in his combination "everybody gets a chance to back away" and the Doctor's generally paternalistic 'these people can't take responsibility like me.' 13 doesn't set herself above humans in the same way previous incarnations did so if it's that element it's weird, and the fact it's specifically only guns feels like they're just copying from Batman or taking the idea that the Doctor wields a tool to fix instead of a tool to kill on an extremely surface level. I've always most enjoyed The Doctor as a 'Technically Pacifist' but the show isn't explaining her philosophy here well at all
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
3,371
Australia
AI's and Overnight Ratings for the last 2 and a bit seasons.

The Pilot - 83, 4.64m
Smile - 83, 4.25m
Thin Ice - 84, 3.76m
Knock Knock - 83, 4.32m
Oxygen - 83, 3.57m
Extremis - 82, 4.16m
The Pyramid At The End Of The World - 82, 4.01m
The Lie Of The Land - 82, 3.01m
Empress Of Mars - 83, 3.58m
The Eaters of Light - 81, 2.89m
World Enough And Time - 85, 3.37m
The Doctor Falls - 83, 3.75m
Twice Upon A Time - 81, 5.66m

The Woman Who Fell to Earth - 83, 8.2m
The Ghost Monument - 82, 7.11m
Rosa - 83, 6.39m
Arachnids in the UK - 83, 6.43m
The Tsuranga Conundrum - 79, 6.12m
Demons of the Punjab - 80, 5.77m
Kerblam! - 81, 5.93m
The Witchfinders - 81, 5.66m
It Takes You Away - 80, 5.07m
The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos - 79, 5.32m
Resolution - 80, 5.15m

Spyfall Part 1 - 82, 4.88m
Spyfall Part 2 - 82, 4.6m
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,825
Getting rid of the Time Lords again seems super awkward to me from a narrative perspective. They've barely had a chance to be "back" to begin with, and I imagine a bunch casual viewers were like "wait, I thought they were all dead anyway." Like I just feel like there should've been at least like one other Gallifrey-centric storyline post-Hell Bent before doing this to make us give a shit.
 

Grunge_Hamster

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,270
Getting rid of the Time Lords again seems super awkward to me from a narrative perspective. They've barely had a chance to be "back" to begin with, and I imagine a bunch casual viewers were like "wait, I thought they were all dead anyway." Like I just feel like there should've been at least like one other Gallifrey-centric storyline post-Hell Bent before doing this to make us give a shit.
Why were they brought back anyway? It seems like a very Moffat thing to do: 'Bringing things full circle' and 'Rocking the status quo' to ultimately characters reacting nothing differently and learning no new things.
 

DangerMouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,535
Strong follow-up to the premiere. It got bogged down in exposition a few times but otherwise very fun. Also a nice surprise that the seasonal arc is about Gallifreyan Origin Lore... but hopefully it's not just discarded completely until the finale. I also enjoyed the serious tonal shift for Jodie that came with the Master's reveal about Gallifrey.

8.5/10
Oh yeah, I loved her shift to full serious watching the Master's message and looking at the destruction. Looking forward to more and the why.
Barton's gloating was pretty dark too.

Same here, I thought it was quite a good two-parter.
Perhaps a bit too easy on her escape from such a great trap at the beginning of part 2 and I agree it was a little wordy at times, but I really enjoyed that both parts felt more ambitious than a lot of the self-contained last season, which is great since the new Doctor and the companions were the best part of last season for me and they deserved more consistent stories. I thought Ada was pretty fun for her brief time. Especially enjoyed the Doctor working through her situation trying to put the pieces together and then finally drawing her sonic to activate that device. I always look forward to those working the problem scenes for the Doctor. Ada surprising her by grabbing on at the last moment worked well to me for being the reason they ended up in the wrong time.

"Now they'll see the real you, good luck!" DAMN that was great. I liked the Master's head nod when the Doctor called him out for another new low wearing that uniform.
And then playing back the recording to turn the tables was very fitting with the theme of the ep.

Was glad to finally hear her say something like Earth is off-limits again.

Graham and his laser shoes have already made this season more than worth it.
Haha. Since it had been a few days I wasn't even thinking about them until it happened so it was a good surprise after they'd come up in part 1 when they got the spy gear. :)

Aside from that, the other two funniest comedy bits of the ep for me was Ryan telling those goons their plan and then Yaz yelling at him. Barton would have thought to track those phones anyway but it was still funny. And that guy (can't remember his name at the moment) quickly chugging down the rest of his drink after the Doctor and Ada disappeared was hilarious.

Actually I did also burst out a quick laugh at the Razr flip phone too.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,972
Brazil
was not sure on that master but the eiffel tower scene totally sold me on the dynamics of both of them
 

Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,231
France
Well I liked this second episode a lot. And as others pointed out, I also got some Last Jedi vibes from it.
Really weird though to go from season 11 "not a single mention of any piece of lore" to "HERE'S A BUNCH OF CLASSIC LORE SHIT WITH A MOFFAT-LIKE SETUP AND A PINCH OF RTD"
I mean I like it, but that's one hell of a turn, and coming very quick in this new season. A good thing imo, and even though there are still things I'm not a fan of, I think I'm gonna enjoy this season way more than the previous one.


I enjoyed it. Dhawan is a bit too Simm-like, and Missy is a hard act to follow, but I still thought that was a great Master reveal. Also appreciate the throwback to the Master's creepy TCE antics.

Still not 100% sold on the new era, but I still really like Whittaker and the new companions. My main beef is Chibnall's style (cinematography and all) feels a little too dark and bland for how goofy the show is, so it just constantly feels "off." There's a Torchwood-esque moodiness that just doesn't mesh for me.

Warning: the following contains insanely nerdy and definitely wrong speculation, so please don't read it unless you want to waste a few seconds of your life.

My out-there theory for what was going on in that weird "other place": this is Chibnall's take on Looms. It's one of those weird things from the wilderness years that fans are persistently begging to be canonized, it would tie into both the Doctor and the Master's backstory, and some sort of creepy Time Lord birthing chamber existing in the wake of the Time War fits with the Master's whole "everything you know is a lie" thing.

Also, the silhouette of those new aliens vaguely remind me a bit of Fifth Doctor-era Omega:



Omega basically jumpstarted Time Lord civilization by pioneering the technology to manipulate stars as a power source for time travel, but got sucked into a black hole, lost his physical form, and ended up in an antimatter universe. Also, lost we saw him he was trying to create a tangible body for himself using the Doctor's biological data, which reminds me of what the new aliens were doing in the premiere.

So, my insane theory is basically that there's a race of fucked up antimatter Time Lords feeding off the biological data of people from various universes to fuel their Looms in order to "spawn" into our universe.

Granted, Chibnall said back in 2018 he hadn't ever read Lungbarrow because he'd never been able to find a copy, but who's to say he didn't find a copy in the meantime and come up with his own take on the concept??

(Sorry to anyone who read this.)
That would still fit and I hope it's this.

That’s a neat fourth doctor reference.
Which one? I apparently missed it, or I don't remember.

You can't turn away from Gallifrey for two seconds without someone attempting to or succeeding in blowing it up
username/avatarquote

was not sure on that master but the eiffel tower scene totally sold me on the dynamics of both of them
Yup, same, I thought we really witnessed what this version of the Master was about during that scene. It came together perfectly. And the way he swings between absolute rage and grief... he really sold me on his version.
 

lexony

Member
Oct 25, 2017
235
Europe
My main issue is still the charaterization of the doctor. But I think they could solve this by giving her a more personal side story. Like she falls in love or something.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,834
My main issue is still the charaterization of the doctor. But I think they could solve this by giving her a more personal side story. Like she falls in love or something.
That's what the timeless child might be, like one of her future daughters was kidnapped by the timelord founders and experimented on, as part of creating the time lord body. I don't know but I assume it has to be something even the master would get angry about.
 

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,972
USA
Why were they brought back anyway? It seems like a very Moffat thing to do: 'Bringing things full circle' and 'Rocking the status quo' to ultimately characters reacting nothing differently and learning no new things.
I feel like someone has said this in this thread but series 9 was supposed to be Moffat's final series, so having an ending for Clara and bringing the Time Lords back was Moffat's way of clearing the table off for a new showrunner. But then he signed on for another season.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,136
Titles and writers for episodes 4-6:

4. Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror, by Nina Metivier
5. Fugitive of the Judoon, by Vinay Patel
6. Praxeus, by Pete McTighe
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,825
Titles and writers for episodes 4-6:

4. Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror, by Nina Metivier
5. Fugitive of the Judoon, by Vinay Patel
6. Praxeus, by Pete McTighe
"Praxeus" sounds so Classic Who. It's been a while since we had an episode with a weird name like Shada/Meglos/Logopolis/Frontios.
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,511
Really liked this episode too, looks like CC really upped his game with series 12.

The only thing still lacking is the Doctor's theme; it's not as powerful or triumphant or championinish as 10's, 11's or 12's, more like a soft melody. Like, I could hear the 11th Doctor's theme in my head, when the 13th reunited with her fam and confronted the Master; I could picture the 11th swaggering in. In general, the music hasn't been as energetic as it was pre-CC.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
804
Liked episode two more than the first, but still a little mixed. I'm not sure exactly what isn't clicking with me. I think maybe S11 felt more holistically of a single style, while this two-parter felt like it was imitating RTD or Moffat-era Who in a Chiball shell. The resolution of the monsters and Barton was by the book "I'm clever" Doctoring, but without the punchy music and editing of the Moffat era, or the over the top melodrama of RTD, it felt hollow. Also me of the Space-Amazon episode from S11, where it had some half-hearted message lost in transmission. The written dialogue is often hollow, with many lines that are clearly meant to be snappy or witty that just aren't, despite admiral effort from the cast.

As for the longer arc (I read the spoilers):
I have no problem with shaking up the lore in dramatic ways, but I absolutely do not like when The Doctor is made out to have any kind of destiny or import. It is something I can accept if true and won't put me off watching, but I'd rather she not be that special.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,621
Cambridge, UK
Spyfall wasn't perfect and the whole thing of new showrunners retconning everyone else's work (Moffat was by the far the most egregious with ruining other people's characters/plotlines while protecting his own).

I feel that if the rest of the season is more like eps 1 and 2, it'll be a step up from the last few years (Moffat and Chinballs) and I'd be satisfied. I doubt it's going to be like this for the whole season but if we get a nice season finale that's not as dull as Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, then that would be great.
 

VAD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,395
BBC social media forced my hand when they spoiled the Master return so I began watching the two parter without waiting for the whole season to drop.
It was a great return to form but I’m disappointed it felt like Moffat wrote it. I wish the Timeless Child doesn’t turn out to be a stupid thing.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
On top of the Eiffel Tower.

"It's colder up here than it was at Jodrell Bank."

"Did I ever apologise for that?"

"No."

"Good."

Which I was taking to be a reference to Logopolis, but I may be mistaken.
Can't imagine anything else it could be.

The Blu-Ray version of that story has new footage filmed there as an option which is pretty cool:

 

CD_93

Member
Dec 12, 2017
932
Lancashire, United Kingdom
Spyfall Part 1 looks to have a final rating of 6.9m. Will be officially published Monday. For context, it's higher than every episode of Series 9 & 10.

(Dracula has lept from 3.6m to 7m!)
 
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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
37,919
I'm really starting to think that the Timeless Child was both the Doctor AND the Master and the Gallifreyans somehow split the original being up into two halves.
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
3,371
Australia
Episode 1 is now up to 6.9m with 7-day catch-up and streaming, just beaten out by Dracula at 7m.

These were the most viewed episodes in the first half of 2019 (7-day figures) for comparison. Anything in the 6m-8m range is good these days.

1. Line of Duty - 12.1 million (BBC One)
2. Britain’s Got Talent - 10.2 million (ITV)
3. Manhunt - 9.0 million (ITV)
4. Call the Midwife - 8.9 million (BBC One)
4. Women's World Cup, England vs. United States - 8.9 million (BBC One)
6. Luther - 8.8 million (BBC One)
7. Cleaning Up - 8.5 million (ITV)
8. Cheat - 8.2 million (ITV)
9. Death in Paradise - 8.2 million (BBC One)
10. Coronation Street - 8.1 million (ITV)
 
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MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,549
Just caught up with both episodes. Was good I think. Although as usual with who, the finale was disappointing. First episode they’re weird beings that don’t scan as anything and can get into the tardis - both worrying the Doctor. Then at the end she just programmed this thing to send them all back to their dimension. Oh ok.
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
3,371
Australia
Just caught up with both episodes. Was good I think. Although as usual with who, the finale was disappointing. First episode they’re weird beings that don’t scan as anything and can get into the tardis - both worrying the Doctor. Then at the end she just programmed this thing to send them all back to their dimension. Oh ok.
I wasn't paying close attention but I think she hijacked Barton's tech.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,549
I wasn't paying close attention but I think she hijacked Barton's tech.
of course she did. She always does. The resolution in recent who (several seasons) has very often been flat vs the buildup.they just wait until the last 5 minutes and then reverse the polarity. I just find it dull and makes the rest of the episode fall a little flat
 

WhovianGamer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
811
I thought the Spyfall parts were okay. It was the closest Chibnall has got to writing a RTD and Moffat-esque episode but still fell way short of either. Very odd ways to cram in two famous ladies from history. It was almost like CC had been reading Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls and just decided s to cram them in.
His dialogue is still too on the nose - when he had the Doctor explain who people were it was like a summary of their lives and not natural at all.

I’m still unsure on the Master, far short of Gomez and doesn’t feel like the idea behind this incarnation was solid enough. Time will tell.

Fry was also woefully underused.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,065
MSN, WI
My biggest problems with Dhawan's Master are these:
- Too similar to Simm
- A bit too young
- Character wasn't gone long enough to miss them

That said, I'd love to see Dhawan stick around for a decade and haunt 14 and 15 and grow into the part. I like the fact that Anthony Ainley recurred for the entirety of the '80s.