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Doctor Who Series 12 |OT| Spyfall Is Where We Start

Protome

Protome

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Oct 27, 2017
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Metallix87 said:
Right, but they didn't portray him or the Time Lords as not mattering. They're all of great importance to those four Doctors. The Time Lords mattered, and now they're largely irrelevant when compared to the Doctor. He/she has now always been much more important in the grand scheme of things than they ever were.
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I genuinely don't understand how you're getting "The Time Lords don't matter now" from this. Explaining where the Time Lords got their abilities doesn't make all the shit they did less of a thing. It doesn't make The Doctor any more important than them (although the explanation for why she had those abilities in the first place might, who knows.) Really the only thing this does is makes the Time Lord significantly more ruthless and evil than Moffat's version of them was, more in line with the RTD version.
 
Dwebble

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Oct 25, 2017
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Metallix87 said:
It re-contextualizes a lot of it in a manner that I don't like. The Doctor is now a victim of what amount to Gallifreyan colonialism, and diminishes the mystery of the Time Lords in favor of making the Doctor more "special" than Moffat could have ever dreamed.
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The Time Lords haven't had any mystery worth talking about for nearly fifty years.

If this whole thing does nothing apart from taking the Time Lords off the board going forwards, it will have been worth it.
 
Metallix87

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Rox said:
I haven't watched this season. after the last one I swore off doctor who until Jodie was gone so forgive me for just reading about what's been going on can anyone give me the cliff notes?
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Sure:

- The Master returned and revealed that everything the Doctor knew was a lie.
- The Master destroyed Gallifrey and killed all of the Time Lords off-screen.
- Captain Jack returned and told the companions to warn The Doctor about the lone Cyberman, and to not give him what he wants.
- The Doctor encounters a past version of herself who was hiding on Earth via the chameleon arc as a woman named Ruth. The Doctor has no memory of this past self, who is being hunted by the Judoon and the Time Lords of the past.
- The Doctor and friends visit Mary Shelley the night she created Frankenstein. The lone Cyberman shows up.
- The Doctor has to make a choice: sacrifice Percy Shelley or give the Cyberman the "Cyberium", a liquid entity that is a Cyberman database. She goes against Jack's advice and gives him the Cyberium.
- Travel to the distant future to stop the lone Cyberman. Long story short, he unleashes a new model of Cybermen, and the Doctor ends up on Gallifrey with the Master.
- The Master reveals that the history of the Time Lords is bullshit. The explorer Tecteum discovered the Timeless Child on her adventures, took her home, and extracted the power of regeneration from her.
- The Doctor is the timeless child. She has had hundreds of regenerations, including the faces from Brain of Morbius.
- The Master creates an Army of Time Lord / Cybermen hybrids called Cyber Masters after killing the lone Cyberman and absorbing the Cyberium.
- The death particle, a super weapon created by the lone Cyberman, is used to wipe all life forms from Gallifrey, including the Master.
- The Doctor escapes but is captured and sent to space prison by the Judoon cold case unit. The companions are on Earth and likely believe The Doctor died with the Master and the Cyber Masters.
 
Rox

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JediTimeBoy said:
Imagine Mando experimenting on Baby Yoda, in order to get his/her Force Powers, and after succeeding, mind wiping Baby Yoda, until it becomes the Yoda that you know and love (but with the added bonus of this having created the Mandalorians in the first place).
Oh and Boba (the Master) is back.
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Drewton said:
If you want major spoilers:
  • The Master came back without explanation and totally undoing Missy's character development.
  • The Doctor met someone named Ruth who turned out to be a pre-Hartnell Doctor.
  • The Cybermen came back but basically became Daleks, wanting to destroy all organic life and to become robots. The Master works with the Cybermen again.
  • The Doctor as a child was immortal and her regeneration power was taken by the time lords. She regenerated several times and had her memory wiped before starting the 12 Doctor cycle.
  • The Master turns the time lords into regenerating Cybermen.
  • Gallifrey is destroyed again and even more this time.
  • The Master is seemingly permakilled again.
  • The Doctor lets someone else sacrifice himself to destroy Gallifrey with the cyberlords while she runs away.
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I....I...don't even know where to start with that

I literally feel sick.
 
Tizoc

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Oct 25, 2017
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Oman
Some interesting stuff in this episode.

Curious how the next series will be handled. This'd be a new way for them to have new companions and even go on an alt. progression with the doctor's adventures.

Also can we get more Ruth please?
 
Metallix87

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Halbrand

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Can the next show runner just say that Chibnall's run happened in some weird alternate universe?
 
Easy_D

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So how the fuck does Ruth fit in, did the doctor decide to call themselves doctor twice? And have police box tardis?

What's up with the Irish fake memory but the old man on the distant planet having heard the same mottos spoken in the fake memory?
 
Metallix87

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Easy_D said:
So how the fuck does Ruth fit in, did the doctor decide to call themselves doctor twice? And have police box tardis?

What's up with the Irish fake memory but the old man on the distant planet having heard the same mottos spoken in the fake memory?
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The Ruth Doctor's place in the timeline is never explained fully.

The Irish memory was hinted to have been implanted by Tecteum for the Doctor to find. Maybe a hint as to what was deleted, or something else entirely?
 
Rox

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Trying to process what I've been told here..

So is the new master before or after missy? If it's after I take it nothing was stated how she escaped that ship without a TARDIS?

Ruth is before Hartnell right? Then why does she have a police box TARDIS? (Just googled her)

So the doctor was originally a girl now too? Is this just to shove in the faces of all of us who didn't want a female doctor? And if the doctor was originally an immortal why aren't they now? Sure the time lord's took some of their ability but I thought doctor who had immortals before so I'm not sure why she still isn't an immortal.


So all the time lords that got turned into cybermen are dead again? Can regeneration even work with cybernetic parts?

Wtf with the doctor letting someone sacrifice themselves... I swear ever since gibnall and Jodie stepped in this series has hit rock bottom...

I stopped watching last season and this all still hurts ><
 

Kinglypuff

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Nov 13, 2018
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I'd like to add in addition to all the talk about The Doctor being "special" or a "god" under Moffat that it was never the point he was trying to make.

The whole point of Moffat's era was deconstructing the myth of the Doctor (The Silence Arc, A Good Man Goes To War where River scolds 11 for making others so afraid of what he's meant to represent, leading to him "erasing" himself), and instead deciding that what makes The Doctor is special not because of their origin, but their principles (A Good Man Goes to War toys with the idea that's where we got the word Doctor from ) : Clara can be the Doctor, John Hurt's incarnation is initially rebuked because he abandoned these principles and is redeemed in the 50th, and even a simulation version is real as seen in Extremis which is basically Moffat's thesis statement of The Doctor As A Concept. They're special BECAUSE they're not a chosen one.

I kinda think it sucks that this finale goes against all that.
 
Metallix87

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Rox said:
Trying to process what I've been told here..

So is the new master before or after missy? If it's after I take it nothing was stated how she escaped that ship without a TARDIS?

So the doctor was originally a girl now too? Is this just to shove in the faces of all of us who didn't want a female doctor? And if the doctor was originally an immortal why aren't they now? Sure the time lord's took some of their ability but I thought doctor who had immortals before so I'm not sure why she still isn't an immortal.


So all the time lords that got turned into cybermen are dead again? Can regeneration even work with cybernetic parts?

Wtf with the doctor letting someone sacrifice themselves... I swear ever since gibnall and Jodie stepped in this series has hit rock bottom...

I stopped watching last season and this all still hurts ><
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1.) This Master is established by the actor to be post-Missy.

2.) The Doctor's first three forms are shown to be little girls (first black, then Asian, then white).

3.) The implication is either that the Doctor is still immortal, or was given a limitation when they finally regenerated into a young Hartnell Doctor.

4.) The Cyber Masters were shown to be able to regenerate, possibly infinitely. They've been vaporized now, though, along with the Master and all remaining Cybermen.
 
Halbrand

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Was Chibnall inspired by Ben Solo destroying Luke's temple and trying to tell Rey some dark truth about Luke?
 
Coldman

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Everything down to the random cliffhanger ending is the sign of a man just throwing shit at a wall. Ughhhh.
 
Rox

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Metallix87 said:
1.) This Master is established by the actor to be post-Missy.

2.) The Doctor's first three forms are shown to be little girls (first black, then Asian, then white).

3.) The implication is either that the Doctor is still immortal, or was given a limitation when they finally regenerated into a young Hartnell Doctor.

4.) The Cyber Masters were shown to be able to regenerate, possibly infinitely. They've been vaporized now, though, along with the Master and all remaining Cybermen.
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1. So missy stabbed John simm who went on to regenerate into the new master who then regenerates into missy?

2. Uuuuggh just feels like a screw you haters monent

3. Hmmmm although if the doctor was still immortal he wouldn't have needed that regen boost in the time of the doctor?

4. Them being able to regenerate still feels odd :S

What about Ruth's TARDIS being the police box?
 
Metallix87

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I've actually now started jotting down ideas for my own Doctor Who stories, which I'm going to send to the BBC with the note "Can't possibly be worse than what Chibnall delivered for you" on it.
 
Metallix87

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Rox said:
1. So missy stabbed John simm who went on to regenerate into the new master who then regenerates into missy?

What about Ruth's TARDIS being the police box?
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Missy regenerates into the new Master, and Simm regenerates into Missy. The Master is seemingly gone for good now.

And no, her TARDIS isn't explained at all. They don't even definitively establish that she is pre-Hartnell like the others.
 
Rox

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JediTimeBoy said:
No way to know if it was a boost, or unlock code.
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Ooooh shit, fair point.

Well there goes the doctor having just 13 again.

Wait did rasillon know about who the doctor was? Did any of the high council?

Metallix87 said:
Missy regenerates into the new Master, and Simm regenerates into Missy. The Master is seemingly gone for good now.

And no, her TARDIS isn't explained at all. They don't even definitively establish that she is pre-Hartnell like the others.
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Ah sorry got my wires crossed.

So I guess that means they didn't explain how missy escaped then and didn't John Simms master say he stopped her from doing that?
 
Kalor

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Rox said:
2. Uuuuggh just feels like a screw you haters monent
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It 100% is. I have plenty of issues with the episode and current era but I love any instance of them trying to "ruin" the show for those people who think the Doctor can only be a white man. Like the Ruth reveal earlier in the season.
 
Metallix87

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Rox said:
Ooooh shit, fair point.

Well there goes the doctor having just 13 again.

Wait did rasillon know about who the doctor was? Did any of the high council?
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Rassilon, Omega, etc. are not mentioned. The only Time Lords mentioned in the story are Tecteun and some secret group called The Division that recruited the Doctor pre-Hartnell, but what he did for them (and for how long) was redacted by the Matrix memory bank.
 
Protome

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Metallix87 said:
Rassilon, Omega, etc. are not mentioned. The only Time Lords mentioned in the story are Tecteun and some secret group called The Division that recruited the Doctor pre-Hartnell, but what he did for them (and for how long) was redacted by the Matrix memory bank.
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The Division stuff being redacted but not the big secret history of the whole Time Lord race was the one bit of this episode that I thought was really dumb.
 
Rox

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Kalor said:
It 100% is. I have plenty of issues with the episode and current era but I love any instance of them trying to "ruin" the show for those people who think the Doctor can only be a white man. Like the Ruth reveal earlier in the season.
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I'll admit I was one of those haters. When they revealed Jodie I was sooo angry but I still gave her a chance and didn't like her one bit. This Ruth character though seems like a badass I may have to watch that episode at least if I can stick Jodie and her "Fam"


Metallix87 said:
Rassilon, Omega, etc. are not mentioned. The only Time Lords mentioned in the story are Tecteun and some secret group called The Division that recruited the Doctor pre-Hartnell, but what he did for them (and for how long) was redacted by the Matrix memory bank.
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Man this is soooo messy! :s
 
JediTimeBoy

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Imo The Division = CIA, especially since the word "intervention" was specifically used and highlighted, and the concept justified.
 
Halbrand

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The one thing that Chibnall is consistent about is having the Doctor make bizarre moral decisions.

  • Dinosaurs on a Spaceship: murdering Solomon
  • Woman Who Fell to Earth: telling someone that he had no right to knock an alien off a crane while she implanted five bombs inside that same alien.
  • The Ghost Monument: strongly opposes guns against robots, she kills them with electricity instead
  • Kerblam: needlessly blowing up the packages and killing Charlie and acting like she cares most of all about preserving the system
  • Arachnids in the UK: the Doctor is concerned with dealing with the spiders humanely, she gets mad at not-Trump for quickly ending the spider's life with a gun while her idea of humanely killing them is locking them in a room and suffocating them to death.
  • Witchfinders: throwing a tantrum over King James killing a malicious alien witch who had captured him.
  • Timeless Children: letting someone else sacrifice himself destroying blowing himself up to destroy Gallifrey while she runs away
 
ibyea

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Just finished the finale. And it was okay? Like it's not great, but not as bad as people made it seem like. Certainly there has been far worse finales in the revived series. And hey, I was mostly entertained, especially with Dharwan as my favorite incarnation of the Master. As for the origin of the Time Lords, it's fine, it works, it's whatever. Ironically the everything changes part was a lie, as this new bit of lore fits in pretty well while not changing much about the Doctor or the Time Lords. The biggest problem with the episode is that it is overstuffed, which is a problem for half the episodes this season.
 
VorpalNonsense

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What I keep trying to understand is why the memory hints are in the form of an imaginary earth police officer
I still don't understand what was going on with that shit

Kinglypuff said:
I'd like to add in addition to all the talk about The Doctor being "special" or a "god" under Moffat that it was never the point he was trying to make.

The whole point of Moffat's era was deconstructing the myth of the Doctor (The Silence Arc, A Good Man Goes To War where River scolds 11 for making others so afraid of what he's meant to represent, leading to him "erasing" himself), and instead deciding that what makes The Doctor is special not because of their origin, but their principles (A Good Man Goes to War toys with the idea that's where we got the word Doctor from ) : Clara can be the Doctor, John Hurt's incarnation is initially rebuked because he abandoned these principles and is redeemed in the 50th, and even a simulation version is real as seen in Extremis which is basically Moffat's thesis statement of The Doctor As A Concept. They're special BECAUSE they're not a chosen one.

I kinda think it sucks that this finale goes against all that.
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Indeed. Moffat spent quite a while picking apart the idea that the Doctor was special until it was dead. He built him up so he could tear him down. He mainly took the Doctor's trajectories from RTD's era to their ultimate conclusions, resolving both the burden and the ego that came with the mantle of last of the time lords. By the end of Moffat's run it was very clear that the Doctor had worked that stuff out and viewed himself and just another dude. The two eras felt different, but still congruent.

However now thanks to Chib she's more special than she's ever been as the First and Last of the Timelords, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Practically a time lord diety.
Oh god Omega is just going to be another pre-hartnell doctor isnt he

I'm fine with the Morbius doctors being a thing, I just don't like this timelore stuff from a character standpoint. Both the Doctor and the Master regressed hard without convincing justifications for doing so. It's just incongruent.
 
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Dary

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The English Wilderness
Y'know what would be even more Time Lord than the Time Lords stealing the power of regeneration from a child? The Time Lords sending a Time Lord child back in time to ensure that the Time Lords are always born.

It's basically Genesis of the Daleks in reverse.
 
Ishmael

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I miss the Doctor being nothing more than a ragamuffin asshole who would run around a cardboard maze for three or four episodes until the slow moving monster was killed.
 
ibyea

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Drewton said:
The one thing that Chibnall is consistent about is having the Doctor make bizarre moral decisions.
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I don't agree with you much on Doctor Who, but this is one of the things where I agree. Like there is some bizarre contortionist morality involved. But I think it's an issue that goes back to the RTD era, which Chibnall made even more bizarre. I could swear the Doctor going all self righteous on guns was not really a thing until then.
 
Wallace Wells

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Drewton said:
The one thing that Chibnall is consistent about is having the Doctor make bizarre moral decisions.

  • Dinosaurs on a Spaceship: murdering Solomon
  • Woman Who Fell to Earth: telling someone that he had no right to knock an alien off a crane while she implanted five bombs inside that same alien.
  • The Ghost Monument: strongly opposes guns against robots, she kills them with electricity instead
  • Kerblam: needlessly blowing up the packages and killing Charlie and acting like she cares most of all about preserving the system
  • Arachnids in the UK: the Doctor is concerned with dealing with the spiders humanely, she gets mad at not-Trump for quickly ending the spider's life with a gun while her idea of humanely killing them is locking them in a room and suffocating them to death.
  • Witchfinders: throwing a tantrum over King James killing a malicious alien witch who had captured him.
  • Timeless Children: letting someone else sacrifice himself destroying blowing himself up to destroy Gallifrey while she runs away
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Didn't she teleport away and let people die in Orphan 55?
 
Hellers

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The Doctor is a victim. Look back at that sequence where they were showing all the different child regenerations as Tecteun was doing her experiments. Do you think she was waiting for the Doctor to die naturally and regenerate? Of course not. If Shoboggans were that long lived they wouldn't need regenerations in the first place. The Doctor as a child was being killed over and over again.

I say again. Based on what we currently know the Doctor isn't a chosen one. She's victim of barbaric brutality which apparently continued during her time in this mysterious organisation.
 
Wallace Wells

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Also The Master definitely escaped with his CyberLords. He says "all of you through here, now" before that bomb explodes
 
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