Doctor Who Series 12 |OT| Spyfall Is Where We Start

[sir_crocodile]

Anyone been watching the Faceless Ones animation?

Just finished the fourth ep, the story is fairly average but the animation quality seems to have improved since Macra Terror. It's still obviously cheap (especially when people are running), but I think it's their best effort yet. Plus of course it gives Mark Ayres an excuse to remaster the audio again. :)

 

[GingerbreadMan]

Then it's still a complete shift in the time lords culpability while ignoring TEOT's reason for its use. For RTD, the doctor sacrifices the time lords who are doing evil to save reality. For Moff, the doctor sacrifices the time lords just because they don't want to sacrifice themselves (let alone most of them probably don't know about the existence of the moment given it's prob one of Omega's goodies).

In the RTD timeline the Doctor is justified, though it's still not his way so he still has guilt. Although TEOT is not a good story for many reasons, it captures the doctor's personality perfectly. It basically shows that during the time war he finally has to make the decision he avoided in Genesis of the Daleks, and he makes the only one he can, and is racked with guilt afterwards.
In the revised Moff timeline the Doctor suddenly looks a lot shadier.

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If you take Hell Bent into account, Moffat retconned "every Time Lords went evil" into "every Time Lords in the High Council went evil". The General and War Council seem pretty nice guys all things considered and then you have the children and their parents in DotD and the Shabogans in Hell Bent.

RASSILON: What is he doing? What does he want? Revenge?
OHILA: The Doctor does not blame Gallifrey for the horrors of the Time War.
RASSILON: I should hope not.
OHILA: He just blames you.

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GENERAL: Gallifrey is currently positioned at the extreme end of the time continuum, for its own protection. We're at the end of the universe, give or take a star system.
DOCTOR: I know. I came the long way round.
GENERAL: The President may not find anywhere to go.
DOCTOR: He's not the President any more.
GENERAL: He was a good man once. Isn't this going a little far?
DOCTOR: Oh, I've barely started. Tell the High Council they're on the next shuttle.

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Although the general "tone" of the Time War as depicted in DotD is impossible to reconcile with the eldritch abominations told by Davies (which, on the other hand, are impossible to depict on screen. They can only live in prose. Very experimental theater, maybe).

 

[water_wendi]

If you take Hell Bent into account, Moffat retconned "every Time Lords went evil" into "every Time Lords in the High Council went evil". The General and War Council seem pretty nice guys all things considered and then you have the children and their parents in DotD and the Shabogans in Hell Bent.

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i thought it was that there was the ordinary Gallifreyan and then there were the Time Lords. Like to become a true Time Lord dont you have to be initiated into the Academy and go before the Untempered Schism?

 

[GingerbreadMan]

i thought it was that there was the ordinary Gallifreyan and then there were the Time Lords. Like to become a true Time Lord dont you have to be initiated into the Academy and go before the Untempered Schism?

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I think the series has never been 100% clear on this. Most of the time "Time Lord" is the name of the species, but then sometimes it is a noble rank.

Like, in Listen when they say the Doctor "could never make a good Time Lord" it is clearly a title. But when the Doctor and Amy say "You look human" - "You look Time Lord", it is the name of the Doctor's species.

 

[EvilRedEye]

Apparently the 12 fans of Class are having a collective re-watch of the first episode at 8pm.

 

[mclem]

Next up in the rewatch-with-tweetalongs: Vincent and the Doctor (today happens to be Vincent's birthday)

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Although the general "tone" of the Time War as depicted in DotD is impossible to reconcile with the eldritch abominations told by Davies (which, on the other hand, are impossible to depict on screen. They can only live in prose. Very experimental theater, maybe).

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It's better that we don't see stuff like the Could Have Been King. It's cooler to just imagine what they might have been.

 

[Metallix87]

I've now, as a pet project for fun, started writing up an episode-by-episode synopsis for a Doctor Who series to follow up on Chibnall's run. Mostly because I'm bored during this self-isolation from the coronavirus. Two seasons in so far, and I'm hopeful I've got some good ideas. Would love some thoughts and critique, if anyone is interested. Don't know if I should post here in full or not.

 

[Spectromixer]

Next up in the rewatch-with-tweetalongs: Vincent and the Doctor (today happens to be Vincent's birthday)

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Matt Smith is going to be live tweeting this one

 

[mclem]

Matt Smith is going to be live tweeting this one

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That's in the video (and he'll be new to Twitter to do so, which is why the original planning didn't mention him; they weren't sure they could get him onboard)

 

[mclem]

I've now, as a pet project for fun, started writing up an episode-by-episode synopsis for a Doctor Who series to follow up on Chibnall's run. Mostly because I'm bored during this self-isolation from the coronavirus. Two seasons in so far, and I'm hopeful I've got some good ideas. Would love some thoughts and critique, if anyone is interested. Don't know if I should post here in full or not.

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Metallix87 has RUINED Doctor Who! Metallix87 MUST GO.

 

[Metallix87]

Metallix87 has RUINED Doctor Who! Metallix87 MUST GO.

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I'm fine (and ready) for that reaction. I'm sure I'd be ruining it less than Chibnall.

 

[Spectromixer]

That's in the video (and he'll be new to Twitter to do so, which is why the original planning didn't mention him; they weren't sure they could get him onboard)

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still waking up so I missed that part of the video 😬

 

[Platy]

Will anyone ever retcon Chibnall's retcon?

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it is doctor who ... someone will always retcon something if you wait long enough =P

 

[Spectromixer]

Here is the account Matt Smith and Bill Nighy will be using

 

[Watchtower]

The Timeless Child stuff is soooo easy to retcon. Just make it a Rassilon revenge plot after he got outsted in Hell Bent. Fucks off Gallifrey with select few Time Lords, tricks the Master by revealing the Timeless Child origin of the Time Lords (but add in the fictional detail of the Child being the Doctor to push him over the edge), then have him eventually get busted by the Doctor at some point (like saaaaay 60th anniversary).

I do like RTD giving the Timeless Child idea some shine in his foreword for his Rose prequel, but yeah no.

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I think Rassilon being out somewhere in the universe is definitely a very easy way to re-tackle this issue with a new show runner down the line. I've had my own thoughts on exactly that for weeks now.

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I actually completely forgot about Rassilon being exiled in Hell Bent, and thinking on it it does work well as a retcon. It's easy to see him being the kind of genocidal petty fuck that, after being made a pariah by his own people, would sic the Master on them, hoping to rebuild Time Lord society from the ashes once again in his image. Most likely didn't anticipate the Master flying off the rails with the whole Cyber-Time Lords thing, but then the Doctor is useful in that regard.

Hell, you can even do the whole "The Timeless Child is actually the Master" thing, with Rassilon flipping that detail to keep the Master off his ass. There's some grand tragedy there, the Master at his lowest point once again becoming Rassilon's unknowing pawn.

Of course, it's not exactly a clean retcon - the cloth things referring to the Doctor as the Timeless Child is not exactly an easy wipe (maybe more telepathic shit?) and there's still the question of the Ruth Doctor - but it otherwise works.

 

[Metallix87]

I actually completely forgot about Rassilon being exiled in Hell Bent, and thinking on it it does work well as a retcon. It's easy to see him being the kind of genocidal petty fuck that, after being made a pariah by his own people, would sic the Master on them, hoping to rebuild Time Lord society from the ashes once again in his image. Most likely didn't anticipate the Master flying off the rails with the whole Cyber-Time Lords thing, but then the Doctor is useful in that regard.

Hell, you can even do the whole "The Timeless Child is actually the Master" thing, with Rassilon flipping that detail to keep the Master off his ass. There's some grand tragedy there, the Master at his lowest point once again becoming Rassilon's unknowing pawn.

Of course, it's not exactly a clean retcon - the cloth things referring to the Doctor as the Timeless Child is not exactly an easy wipe (maybe more telepathic shit?) and there's still the question of the Ruth Doctor - but it otherwise works.

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I think the easiest and cleanest way to tackle this is The Master either lying or just misinterpreting the information, and the Timeless Child being Susan, not the Doctor. It allows for the Doctor to still be directly connected to the story without actually being the Timeless Child, it still gives a reason for the cloth creatures to reference the Timeless Child, and it would allow a chance for us to explore the Doctor and Susan's backstory and even bring in Rassilon and Omega into the mix.

 

[Watchtower]

I think the easiest and cleanest way to tackle this is The Master either lying or just misinterpreting the information, and the Timeless Child being Susan, not the Doctor. It allows for the Doctor to still be directly connected to the story without actually being the Timeless Child, it still gives a reason for the cloth creatures to reference the Timeless Child, and it would allow a chance for us to explore the Doctor and Susan's backstory and even bring in Rassilon and Omega into the mix.

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The Timeless Child being Susan works too, but the Master lying about it doesn't. His whole plan to reveal the Doctor's origins to mentally break her is already dumb (the Doctor explicitly calls it out as such), but him fabricating the truth to achieve that route just makes it dumber. For this to work either the Master badly misread the data (Dhawan's Master is pretty unhinged, any reference to the Doctor would probably have him reeling) or an outside force like Rassilon deliberately corrupted the data to sic the Doctor and Master against each other.

 

[Metallix87]

The Timeless Child being Susan works too, but the Master lying about it doesn't. His whole plan to reveal the Doctor's origins to mentally break her is already dumb (the Doctor explicitly calls it out as such), but him fabricating the truth to achieve that route just makes it dumber. For this to work either the Master badly misread the data (Dhawan's Master is pretty unhinged, any reference to the Doctor would probably have him reeling) or an outside force like Rassilon deliberately corrupted the data to sic the Doctor and Master against each other.

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I think it's unlikely that the Master would align himself with Rassilon in the first place. I think, more reasonably, it's that the Master could have misinterpreted the data because of missing chunks. If the Timeless Child's history ends with them joining the Division and then picks up with, say, the Doctor stealing the TARDIS on Gallifrey (with Susan along for the ride), it's possible that the Master wrongly assumed that the Doctor was the Timeless Child as opposed to Susan, who makes a lot more sense in the role. The Master and The Doctor (and The Rani) are established as basically growing up together and being school mates. Them being the Timeless Child makes little sense. Susan, on the other hand, is basically an enigma, despite being one of the show's original characters. We really know nothing about her, her connection to the Doctor, or what became of her.

 

[Watchtower]

I think it's unlikely that the Master would align himself with Rassilon in the first place. I think, more reasonably, it's that the Master could have misinterpreted the data because of missing chunks. If the Timeless Child's history ends with them joining the Division and then picks up with, say, the Doctor stealing the TARDIS on Gallifrey (with Susan along for the ride), it's possible that the Master wrongly assumed that the Doctor was the Timeless Child as opposed to Susan, who makes a lot more sense in the role. The Master and The Doctor (and The Rani) are established as basically growing up together and being school mates. Them being the Timeless Child makes little sense. Susan, on the other hand, is basically an enigma, despite being one of the show's original characters. We really know nothing about her, her connection to the Doctor, or what became of her.

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My suggestion wasn't for a Rassilon/Master team-up, it was for Rassilon secretly tricking the Master into being his attack dog. Hence the tragedy of the Master, hence him being an unknowing pawn.

Still, though, fair points on a lot of the stuff regarding Susan. And that was one of the earlier theories, right? Back when this "Timeless Child" bit was first hinted at in The Ghost Monument. She definitely is a complete enigma in every which way, and in hindsight it's kinda surprising the show's never tried revisiting this detail..

 

[EvilRedEye]

Given BBC Worldwide have given Big Finish the rights to do a boxset exploring Susan during the Time War, it seems like the show has given up on reviving her character, similar to how they've started letting the audios and books cover what became of Ace during the modern era.

 

[Metallix87]

Given BBC Worldwide have given Big Finish the rights to do a boxset exploring Susan during the Time War, it seems like the show has given up on reviving her character, similar to how they've started letting the audios and books cover what became of Ace during the modern era.

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I think those are largely different situations. Susan is a Time Lord, and thus would regenerate like any other one, especially if she were the Timeless Child. They can explore her story during the Time War while still allowing her to show up with a new face / actress in modernity without issue.

 

[Coldman]

As rough as it would be in terms of the representation Jo Martin gives the Doctor, you could easily have the Ruth Doctor turning out to be one of Rassilon's allies, if they were to go down that road.

 

[Dwebble]

I personally think that retconning the whole Timeless Child stuff would make the whole season a complete waste of time, and I don't see anyone actually wanting to bother.

Chibnall's stuff will play out, the next showrunner won't mention it, and the whole concept will fall into disuse like the Morbius Doctors and half-human before it.

 

[Coldman]

I personally think that retconning the whole Timeless Child stuff would make the whole season a complete waste of time, and I don't see anyone actually wanting to bother.

Chibnall's stuff will play out, the next showrunner won't mention it, and the whole concept will fall into disuse like the Morbius Doctors and half-human before it.

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That would be a mistake, because frankly, I think the idea of the Time Lords basically stealing their powers is a fascinating idea, the problem is that Chibnall went too far by attaching it to the Doctor.

 

[Naijaboy]

That would be a mistake, because frankly, I think the idea of the Time Lords basically stealing their powers is a fascinating idea, the problem is that Chibnall went too far by attaching it to the Doctor.

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That's where I'm at. Stealing regeneration powers and adopting them as their own is textbook Time Lords.

 

[Dwebble]

Yep- if the Timeless Child had been left a mystery, rather than being explicitly the Doctor, the whole thing would have gone down better.

Still, I'm not at all interested in any more Time Lord stories. They're stultifyingly dull buggers, and all of them apart from the Doctor and the Master could be punted offscreen forever and I wouldn't be upset. I don't care about losing the idea of the Time Lords stealing regeneration, because I flat don't care about the Time Lords.

 

[Coldman]

(the secret about the Time Lords is that they should basically be the Tories if you're writing them properly)

 

[Dwebble]

Well, yeah- the clue's in the name.

 

[Metallix87]

As rough as it would be in terms of the representation Jo Martin gives the Doctor, you could easily have the Ruth Doctor turning out to be one of Rassilon's allies, if they were to go down that road.

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I still think putting her between the Second and Third Doctors works seamlessly without much issue.

 

[Psittacus]

That's where I'm at. Stealing regeneration powers and adopting them as their own is textbook Time Lords.

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Yeah I had no complaints with the backstory except for the Doctor being the Timeless Child because that is exactly the sort of shit the Time Lords would pull

 

[Spectromixer]

 

[CommodoreKong]

That would be a mistake, because frankly, I think the idea of the Time Lords basically stealing their powers is a fascinating idea, the problem is that Chibnall went too far by attaching it to the Doctor.

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I think it would have worked far better if the timeless child was the Master. I feel like turning the timelords into zombie cybermen would be exactly the type of crazy revenge he would take for stealing his regeneration abilities and removing his memories.

 

[Spectromixer]

 

[infiniteloop]

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after all these years ahahaha

 

[Kalor]

I like this one as well

 

[Watchtower]

The only thing that straight-up doesn't work is the Doctor being the Timeless Child, and that's actually really easy to retcon as the information being faulty or just bad. Everything else is fine in a vacuum but requires better writers to actually execute on them.

Also I shat on it in another thread I think to bring it up again: the Cartmel Masterplan is actually just kinda shit in general but the whole debacle with the Timeless Child only retroactively emphasizes why it's shit

 

[Dwebble]

Man, watching The Eleventh Hour... I'd love for the show to be even HALF that good again.

 

[EvilRedEye]

Man, watching The Eleventh Hour... I'd love for the show to be even HALF that good again.

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Yeah, I really enjoyed watching that again. Was a cracking episode to kick off a cracking series.

 

[milamber182]

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Poor Rory :( That was funny and sweet.

 

[Halbrand]

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[Ignatz Mouse]

I'm surprised that people aren't happy that canonically the Doctor isn't half human now. RTD revived that notion from the TV movie, though I don't think it's come up since.

 

[BrokenFiction]

I like this one as well

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HAHAHA

 

[Halbrand]

I'm surprised that people aren't happy that canonically the Doctor isn't half human now. RTD revived that notion from the TV movie, though I don't think it's come up since.

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Moffat hinted at it in Hell Bent

Still a better idea than timeless child IMO

 

[Halbrand]

The best thing about the Chibnall era is the opening titles. I hope we had those for Capaldi.

 

[Serebii]

These rewatches just remind me that current Who lacks the whimsy.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

That would be a mistake, because frankly, I think the idea of the Time Lords basically stealing their powers is a fascinating idea, the problem is that Chibnall went too far by attaching it to the Doctor.

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Imagine if the Timeless Child was, in fact, still a child. They can never age past twelve years old, which is why Time Lords can only regenerate twelve times, and if they die they just come back as a newborn baby and the process begins again.

Twelve could be a theme for the Timeless Child and you could even add a small detail that means a lot, like they can't count past twelve because the Time Lords refused them an education and they can't process the idea of numbers beyond twelve - so for the Thirteenth Doctor to be the one that saves them is a little moment itself.

Maybe say the Timeless Child wants to die because their existence is quite frankly terrible. Imagine having the mind and body of a twelve year old child but remembering countless regenerations forced by the horrific experiments the Time Lords did to you to figure out how to be like you and test the limits of your ability to keep coming back.

Yet the Doctor would of course offer them an alternative - a chance to live, to grow old and die - and make them human using the exact same technology the Doctor and the Master both once used to become human too.

 

[zeroshiki]

I watched the Eleventh Hour recently. All these watch alongs don't work for my timezone but damn was Eleven and Amy/Rory such a great team. I miss Moffat dearly and that era of Who.

 

[CommodoreKong]

I watched the Eleventh Hour recently. All these watch alongs don't work for my timezone but damn was Eleven and Amy/Rory such a great team. I miss Moffat dearly and that era of Who.

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I don't think we'll ever get a better first episode for a Doctor than The Eleventh Hour.

 

[zeroshiki]

I don't think we'll ever get a better first episode for a Doctor than The Eleventh Hour.

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I agree. Its not just good "for a debut episode" its just good. Non-stop action all the while introducing us to THREE new main characters with one of them being a new Doctor that is replacing the beloved David Tennant. Moffat at the top of his game is a sight to behold for sure. You can tell that he's had this idea for a while because it was tight and wasted no moments.