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Doctor Who Series 12 |OT| Spyfall Is Where We Start

APZonerunner

APZonerunner

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Oct 28, 2017
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Kolya said:
That doesn't mean you can't think it's a bad idea to do so, even if it happens regularly...
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No doubt, it might be shit! Case in point: actually rediscovering/bringing back Gallifrey in the first place was imo a terrible idea and a huge mistake, because whenever wider Time Lord Society crops up - especially the council, president, upper echelon etc - it's a bloody anchor around the show's neck. Boring ass dusty senators. Gallifrey's return gave us Heaven Sent, but that prison could've been built by Davros, or the Master, or whoever else, tbh.

But the idea of "how dare [showrunner] rewrite the continuity!" is nuts. Doctor Who is in a class of its own when it comes to retcons and rewrites. It literally does not matter at all.
 
Kolya

Kolya

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Jan 26, 2018
786
APZonerunner said:
No doubt, it might be shit! Case in point: actually rediscovering/bringing back Gallifrey in the first place was imo a terrible idea and a huge mistake, because whenever wider Time Lord Society crops up - especially the council, president, upper echelon etc - it's a bloody anchor around the show's neck. Boring ass dusty senators. Gallifrey's return gave us Heaven Sent, but that prison could've been built by Davros, or the Master, or whoever else, tbh.

But the idea of "how dare [showrunner] rewrite the continuity!" is nuts. Doctor Who is in a class of its own when it comes to retcons and rewrites. It literally does not matter at all.
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True, true, but if those spoilers I just read on the last page are true? Oh boy...

Ventilaator said:
Yep, especially considering that we just came from Moffat who did shit like this about four times per episode.
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That was one of the main reasons I couldn't stand Moffat.
 
Kolya

Kolya

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Jan 26, 2018
786
TheGamingNewsGuy said:
Yeeeeeppppppppppppppppppp, like Doctor Who as a series is all about retcons and adding to prestablished history.I don't know why pepole are getting so up in arms about this
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I'm gonna hold off on getting annoyed by this until the truth comes out, but if the spoilers/leaks are true then I can't see how anyone could like what he's gonna do to the show.
 

Deleted member 2430

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Oct 25, 2017
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HigXx said:
Okay spoilers here from Gallifrey Base

Poster first posted this on Oct 19

oh boy guys I've got leaks, and you're in for a wild ride with Series 12 and its additions to canon. And it's not looking good.
If you believe me, I have only four clues. Not sure I want to get C&Ded by The BBC.

1. "Cyber Zealot"
2. "Death Particle"
3. "The Master and Waris Hussein"
4. "Ruth and the Child in Time"

So point No.3 definitely was true. They then posted

I feel the only thing I can explain without being murdered is the Child in Time. I'm still in shock at the route Chibnall has gone down.
The Child in Time is the Doctor themselves, and is their "first life" per se. As a child, they were unkillable and could regenerate endlessly. Found on an unknown planet, they were taken back to Gallifrey, where their abilities allowed Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. The character "Ruth" is (apparently) an earlier life of the Doctor.
I appreciate this sounds like the Virgin Books from during the hiatus, but believe me when I say all this is true; and if it's anything like how my source explained it, the entire fandom will explode. I'm shocked.

Oh boy is Chibnall going in hard with the canon. I didn't think we would be going this deep. Especially after last series
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Whilst I'm loath to take that stuff as gospel, If it's real hopefully it remains in the canon for about as long as the half human stuff
 
sir_crocodile

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,475
HigXx said:
Okay spoilers here from Gallifrey Base

Poster first posted this on Oct 19

oh boy guys I've got leaks, and you're in for a wild ride with Series 12 and its additions to canon. And it's not looking good.
If you believe me, I have only four clues. Not sure I want to get C&Ded by The BBC.

1. "Cyber Zealot"
2. "Death Particle"
3. "The Master and Waris Hussein"
4. "Ruth and the Child in Time"

So point No.3 definitely was true. They then posted

I feel the only thing I can explain without being murdered is the Child in Time. I'm still in shock at the route Chibnall has gone down.
The Child in Time is the Doctor themselves, and is their "first life" per se. As a child, they were unkillable and could regenerate endlessly. Found on an unknown planet, they were taken back to Gallifrey, where their abilities allowed Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. The character "Ruth" is (apparently) an earlier life of the Doctor.
I appreciate this sounds like the Virgin Books from during the hiatus, but believe me when I say all this is true; and if it's anything like how my source explained it, the entire fandom will explode. I'm shocked.

Oh boy is Chibnall going in hard with the canon. I didn't think we would be going this deep. Especially after last series
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lol. so she is going to become The Other? I wonder if we're getting early rassilon and omega too then. And if rassilon will push omega into the other dimension
 
EvilRedEye

EvilRedEye

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Oct 29, 2017
747
I'm more concerned that I've seen no evidence that Chibnall has a driving licence, can smell alcohol on his breath and the car is weaving from side to side than I am specifically about him driving along the sharply weaving road to Timelordretconville.
 
TheGamingNewsGuy

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I admit i am really mixed if that rumour ends up being true. I am fine with retconning Galifery's lore, the Doctor's lore can be a skippy slope and it will upset fans
 
Ventilaator

Ventilaator

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Oct 25, 2017
781
Remember when there was a whole new secret Doctor that we didn't know about, just for one episode.

And remember how, in that one episode, they hit undo on the entire premise of the rebooted series.
 

Deleted member 2430

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
That spoiler honestly contradicts so much of the show's established lore that I'm not sure how they can justify it? Beyond just minor retcons and adding to the lore, it directly contradicts so much of the Doctor's established background.
 
sir_crocodile

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Oct 25, 2017
23,475
Crimson said:
That spoiler honestly contradicts so much of the show's established lore that I'm not sure how they can justify it? Beyond just minor retcons and adding to the lore, it directly contradicts so much of the Doctor's established background.
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Actually I think it's quite easy? Omega secretly studies the doctor(the other?) and through the doctor creates some of the breakthroughs of timelord science. Rassilon stabs him in the back, packs him off to antimattersville and wipes the unkillable doctors memory and leaves her (or him at that point?) with the family the doctor supposedly grew up with. Plus whatever the master saw that so disgusted him happens
 
sir_crocodile

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Oct 25, 2017
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He'll surely be in the finale unless this plot thread isn't being resolved (or at least seriously progressed) this season
 
sir_crocodile

sir_crocodile

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Oct 25, 2017
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Also the ep was kind of a douche to Babbage. Did he deserve that? I don't know anything about his views on women. Obv those kind of views were waaaaaaaay more prevalent back then but I hope chibers actually made sure he held them before having his Babbage spout them off
 
@ShenmueGuru

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Nov 7, 2017
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Not going to read any comments, reviews or anything else. I am just going to leave it at the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed that, and restored a good bit of faith I have in the show. For the first time since... I'd say "Heaven Sent", I am excited to watch Doctor Who again.

I am not a spoiler/in-depth/lore viewer, so I live and let live. If people want to do that, that's ok. That's cool. If people want to criticise, that's ok. That's cool. I just try and relax, enjoy the ride, and after that episode, my mind is spinning and questions are asking. That's what I want from Doctor Who, and that's what I enjoy from TV shows. Keep me engaged, and gripped. Simple.

Roll on next week!
 
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Dalek

Dalek

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Oct 25, 2017
38,887
I haven't watched this yet because I can't until Friday but I read the spoilers. I'm perfectly fine with the show going this route. It needs to be freshened up periodically and doing a clean slate makes it more accessible and straightforward. We're going on 55 years now-and as APZonerunner said-the Time Lords and Gallifrey are ALWAYS boring. The only time I've ever been truly interested in them was in the Day of the Doctor when he sealed Gallifrey. That should have been the end of them. It's like the Republic Senate scenes from Star Wars but indefinitely.
 
sir_crocodile

sir_crocodile

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Dalek said:
I haven't watched this yet because I can't until Friday but I read the spoilers. I'm perfectly fine with the show going this route. It needs to be freshened up periodically and doing a clean slate makes it more accessible and straightforward. We're going on 55 years now-and as APZonerunner said-the Time Lords and Gallifrey are ALWAYS boring. The only time I've ever been truly interested in them was in the Day of the Doctor when he sealed Gallifrey. That should have been the end of them. It's like the Republic Senate scenes from Star Wars but indefinitely.
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imo the only time the time lords weren't boring were in ep 10 of the war games.

Really it's hinchcliffe and holmes to blame (which is rare given they're the cause of so much that is good about who), for showing gallifrey as a stagnant society reliant on machines by the time of The Deadly Assassin. I think they can drop the stagnation and make them interesting again, they just never have.
 
Qwerty Keyboard

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APZonerunner said:
No doubt, it might be shit! Case in point: actually rediscovering/bringing back Gallifrey in the first place was imo a terrible idea and a huge mistake, because whenever wider Time Lord Society crops up - especially the council, president, upper echelon etc - it's a bloody anchor around the show's neck. Boring ass dusty senators. Gallifrey's return gave us Heaven Sent, but that prison could've been built by Davros, or the Master, or whoever else, tbh.

But the idea of "how dare [showrunner] rewrite the continuity!" is nuts. Doctor Who is in a class of its own when it comes to retcons and rewrites. It literally does not matter at all.
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My wording came out wrong, in regards to retconning Gallifrey, yea, that happens a lot and its something I can accept, I'm more specifically speaking about the hints towards the Doctors back story.
If any of that is ret conned, based on what we saw last series and what we learned tonight, I'll be disappointed.
 
8bit

8bit

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Oct 27, 2017
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sir_crocodile said:
I like to think he was like
*googles series 11 reviews*
"this series was way too boring and grounded, chibers sucks"
*googles "Cartmel Masterplan"*
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Scores out Cartmel
Writes Chibnall

Anyway, I got to tell my 8 year old daughter about Ada Lovelace because of this, and even if the rest of the series is rubbish to the point of it getting cancelled then it's made me very happy.
 
Kalor

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After being sort of muted on the first episode, I really loved this one. The dialogue was still clunky in spots but it didn't detract from the overall episode and I enjoyed The Doctor finally seeming competent for once and the interactions with The Master, and the drums and mind contact callbacks. The whole evil plan was also the kind of dumb that I'm all in for. If the season can deliver more episodes like that, I'm really excited to see where it goes.

They're doing more Time Lord retconning but that's nothing new for Doctor Who, and I'm really curious how deep they go with it.
 
Coldman

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Oct 25, 2017
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the best Time Lord story so far was Hell Bent, just for the Doctor telling them all to fuck off and ruining their day
 
Noodle

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Sooooo boring. Same as the last season. I guess this is where I step away from the series until I hear some positive buzz.
 
Rassilon

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The Master was lying, Graham burned down Gallifrey with his laser shoes during a catastrophic dancing accident.
 
CD_93

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vBpp71d.jpg


I can't believe this is what he was actually wearing. I assumed it was a black coat and black shirt at the time.
 
Dwebble

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Oct 25, 2017
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It might be a total disaster, but you know what- good on Chibnall for swinging for the fences and trying something really ambitious. After series 11 seemed content to churn out mediocre wheel-spinning, a bit of mad ambition is way beyond what I expected.
 
Serebii

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Dwebble said:
It might be a total disaster, but you know what- good on Chibnall for swinging for the fences and trying something really ambitious. After series 11 seemed content to churn out mediocre wheel-spinning, a bit of mad ambition is way beyond what I expected.
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Yeah, trying something new is good.

I mean I'm not happy about them just killing Gallifrey again and making The Doctor The Last of the Time Lords again but we'll see if this delivers
 
Blader

Blader

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Oct 27, 2017
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APZonerunner said:
No doubt, it might be shit! Case in point: actually rediscovering/bringing back Gallifrey in the first place was imo a terrible idea and a huge mistake, because whenever wider Time Lord Society crops up - especially the council, president, upper echelon etc - it's a bloody anchor around the show's neck. Boring ass dusty senators. Gallifrey's return gave us Heaven Sent, but that prison could've been built by Davros, or the Master, or whoever else, tbh.
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I always thought it was weird Moffat brought them back in Hell Bent since he'd gone on record saying how dumb and boring he thought the Time Lords were. But then it occurred to me during a recent rewatch that that was originally supposed to be his last season, and I saw some of the choices in the episode as his way of basically resetting things for the next showrunner — taking Clara out of the equation and contriving a reason why they wouldn't see each other again, putting the sonic screwdriver back on the table, putting Gallifrey back on the table, etc.
 
APZonerunner

APZonerunner

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Blader said:
I always thought it was weird Moffat brought them back in Hell Bent since he'd gone on record saying how dumb and boring he thought the Time Lords were. But then it occurred to me during a recent rewatch that that was originally supposed to be his last season, and I saw some of the choices in the episode as his way of basically resetting things for the next showrunner — taking Clara out of the equation and contriving a reason why they wouldn't see each other again, putting the sonic screwdriver back on the table, putting Gallifrey back on the table, etc.
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It's silly if that was his intention, though, as by setting it up as "survived but lost" in Day of the Doctor it was already back on the table anyway. I think the truth is by that point he was a bit knackered and was running out of steam & ideas, tbh. The following series was better, but it's also a lot of full-fanwank, which I think was the proof the tank was running on fumes, which is fair enough really after so many years.
 
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BDS

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I generally enjoyed those two episodes, the additions of the Master, Gallifrey, little lore callbacks like the drumbeat, etc. help the show feel more like Doctor Who and not some generic historical adventure show like series 11.

I don't have a problem with the idea of retconning the Time Lord origins since this show is basically Retcon: The TV Series but I don't know how I feel about (alleged spoilers) the Doctor having lives before Hartnell as that's such a core established part of the character.
 
Faddy

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Oct 25, 2017
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I see people saying this episode was good but I can't understand that at all. The Master/ Gallifrey reveal is interesting but rather ham fisted. I guess it means the whole set up for the season is going to be the Doctor restoring Gallifrey.

Apart from that story the rest was poorly acted and badly written pulp. The plane cliffhanger was pointless. Ada Lovelace just stood around and the fact they threw in the fact she was related to an important man multiple times was kind of cringey. The resolution to the aliens tuning humans into hard drives was a big wet fart. Was there any comeuppance for Lenny Henry? Not really sure why we needed the Nazi element.

It was like last season. Half explained, half finished, poorly executed story, eye-rolling writing and unsatisfactory conclusion.

If this series is going to go really deep into LORE then I think there is cause for worry since the show cannot even land the basics right now.
 
OP
OP
Paradox

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Oct 28, 2017
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I genuinely enjoyed watching this episode which is considerably more than I ever felt about anything in S11 so I'll give Chibnall that much. Take the Master/Doctor stuff out though (which was pretty great, total omission of anything Missy-related aside), and I literally could not tell you the plot. The aliens that everyone thought would turn out to be something were just aliens that used a random metal sculpture to wipe the DNA of everyone around the world via their phones because the Master helped Lenny Henry something something. And, much like Arachnids, Chibnall kind of just forgets about his main villain and has them just fade off into the background after killing his mother...for some reason. Oh and Ada Lovelace was there to stand around and not understand what was going on.

On the one hand, I am genuinely happy that Chibnall has gone from bland nothingness to throwing fifty ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks. On the other...I'm still not overly sure what happened.

Though if those GallifreyBase rumours turn out to be true it is going to be a RIOT. I love when showrunners mess around with the lore just to piss off fans. When Listen first aired and people were losing it because you saw young Doctor? *chef kiss*
 
Dary

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I don't see how this episode's revelations are really any different than the "there was a big off-screen apocalypse between the Time Lords and the Daleks that almost destroyed all of space and time, and ended with an unknown incarnation of the Doctor wiping them all out" that started off the revival...

(Hell, Davies even claims Genesis of the Daleks (which itself was a massive retcon) was the start of the whole thing!)

...the actual episode itself was a bit hit-and-miss, mind.
 
PaulloDEC

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I actually quite enjoyed that two-parter. Probably longer than it needed to be, but overall I found it more engaging than a lot of last season. Really dig Sacha Dhawan as the Master.

Paradox said:
Take the Master/Doctor stuff out though (which was pretty great, total omission of anything Missy-related aside), and I literally could not tell you the plot.
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This however, is very true. The amount of time between the big revelation of "We're turning the human race into a hard drive" and the plan being foiled felt like seconds. Who even needed said hard drive? What was Barton getting out of it? And on a different note, it felt particularly goofy having Ada and Noor standing around like chumps in the background of the Doctor's appearance at the warehouse.

As is becoming his trademark, Chibnall seems to like bringing in loads of characters, but never seems to know quite what to do with them once he's got them.

Kuraudo said:
Hahaha, I hope those spoilers are true. They sound wild and a lot more interesting than anything Chibnall gave us last series.
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Yep, I'm all in for those spoilers. The show has been on the air since 2005; if a showrunner wants to shake things up, I say shake those things the fuck up.
 
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KingWillance

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Was uncertain how I felt about the Master reveal in the first episode but really enjoyed Dhawan's performance. Displayed a decent range of emotions and I appreciated that we got to see him lose his composure when faced with setbacks-- The Master in my mind always has that kinda Starscream whininess to them and while I loved Missy it felt like she rolled with the punches a bit too well.

The Casavian plan was fun in its execution but still felt underwritten and the Bryant speech felt like it was going for full camp but the direction or actor couldn't find that tone. Really miss Rusty and Moffat's comedy background, not just in the quality of the jokes but also they knew how to maintain pace better.

Still! This episode was doing more of what I wanted after the last season. Even if it's not executing as well as I like it does feel like Chibnall has more ambition and may have taken some of the criticisms about last season to heart.
 
Blader

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APZonerunner said:
It's silly if that was his intention, though, as by setting it up as "survived but lost" in Day of the Doctor it was already back on the table anyway. I think the truth is by that point he was a bit knackered and was running out of steam & ideas, tbh. The following series was better, but it's also a lot of full-fanwank, which I think was the proof the tank was running on fumes, which is fair enough really after so many years.
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Other than the finale episodes what was fanwank about S10? Certainly compared to something like S4 or 6 it felt pretty restrained, especially by Moffat's standards. I do agree he seemed to be getting tired toward the end (Bill's ending is more or less the same as Clara's) but I think that actually helped make S9 and 10 good, because they were more straightforward and less focused on trying to create puzzle box plots like he'd done with 6 and 7. I think there's something to be said that Moffat was at his best when he was wiping the slate relatively clean, and I think 5, 8, and 10 being his strongest years imo reflect that.
 
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