Does Kingdom Hearts HAVE TO have Final Fantasy characters?

Do they have to be there?

  • Yes

    Votes: 536 61.0%
  • No

    Votes: 342 39.0%

  • Total voters
    878
Dec 15, 2018
528
KH1 Disney worlds were actually contributing to the main plot. KH2 had a lot less plot relevance but at least an Organization member was fought in one and you revisited them as part of the story. KH3 Disney worlds are one shots with no plot relevance. Nothing of importance happens.
I agree 1 did the best job of implementing them because 1 has the villains as the main bad guys for the majority of the time. But 2, nah, just cause you go there twice and fight some (as in only 2 I think) org members in them doesn't mean they needed to be there. They are there to just coax Sora on, that's it. In 3 they're not there because of Sora, they're there because of the contents of the world.
 
Oct 25, 2017
857
I would have preffered to see them, but contextually it makes sense they never appear since most of the FF characters live in Radiant Garden and you never need to visit there or the colleseum. Sora never asking about them makes as much sense as no one being upset when the FF X characters who were Sora's childhood friends get swallowed up by darkness and don't reappear in the endings because they're not that important to the protagonists.
You never visit, but you face time with characters from that world throughout the entire game (And we never visit the Colosseum because the game has a clear lack of side or post game content). : /

It makes ZERO sense for Ienzo and the other two to be the people you're talking two, or at least the only people you're talking to (and is especially jarring since the other two don't even have any lines). Those characters are literally just filling in a role that was occupied by Final Fantasy characters in previous games. Have Leon and co. be doing that instead of those characters. That would have been far more logical, and maybe less jarring because maybe they'd actually have gotten those voice actors.

There's no good reason for it, and the lengths people are going through to excuse it are pretty funny. We're talking about characters that exist in universe, and then cease to exist for no reason. It's clearly not a creative decision to make the game better or the story more cohesive. It's a business decision, or a compromise made due to time or budget or some other outside factor. It's like when two characters fall in love at the end of a movie, and then are broken up in the sequel because the actors had scheduling conflicts.

Obviously we don't need every single FF character to return, and we don't need constant new cameos or things like that. But, at the very least, the characters from Radiant Garden were very important and had a vested interest in what's going on with Sora and Ansem, the Organization, Maleficent, etc.

It doesn't make sense within the fiction for them to not appear, and like many other things in the game, feels like a compromise, and hurts the experience.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,847
I wouldn't say cryptic, they each say why they're there. Which is more than any of the other games.
Stuff like Marluxia and Larxene investigating a back-up plan in case Sora and friends fail. Young Xehanort discovering he can use replicas for Xion in Toy Box. Vanitas using the negative power in Monsters inc to restore himself. Luxord looking for the black box in Pirates. Stuff like this just isn't in the other games.
And it feels so shoehorned. The black box especially. Vanitas I will at least give you though because it was perfect for him and made me wish Pixar had joined on much sooner for BBS to have the full effect.
 
Sep 21, 2018
185
It’s part of the heroes journey. It’s the trials and tribulations to show how Sora gets to the end of the journey. And while some plots are more original than others they do have significance. It’s where Sora is introduced to Marluxia and Larxene for example.

There’s not any large event that happens in the Disney worlds but its like episodes 3-16 in a 20 episode show. The major stuff happens at the beginning and end but the middle still is important.
lol okay guy. you could replace any disney world with a generic jrpg field or crystal cove and it'd be equally impactful.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,528
lol okay guy. you could replace any disney world with a generic jrpg field or crystal cove and it'd be equally impactful.
I mean you definitely could. But then Kingdom Hearts becomes very generic instead of visiting beloved Disney films.

And then it would be weird having Goofy, Donald, and Mickey being main characters with no other Disney representation.
 
Dec 15, 2018
528
And it feels so shoehorned. The black box especially. Vanitas I will at least give you though because it was perfect for him and made me wish Pixar had joined on much sooner for BBS to have the full effect.
I have to ask you what you want, because at the end of the day they're all outsiders and will always feel shoehorned in because that's what they are.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,648
And it feels so shoehorned. The black box especially. Vanitas I will at least give you though because it was perfect for him and made me wish Pixar had joined on much sooner for BBS to have the full effect.
The Black Box isn't shoehorned. It's established early on that one exists (even earlier if you watched Back Cover) and it's referenced several times throughout the game. It's just that the box is relevant to the next arc. Part of KH3 is planting seeds for what comes next.
 
Sep 21, 2018
185
I mean you definitely could. But then Kingdom Hearts becomes very generic instead of visiting beloved Disney films.

And then it would be weird having Goofy, Donald, and Mickey being main characters with no other Disney representation.
Yeah it's like having different elements from both movie and game franchises is part of the game's identity.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,847
I have to ask you what you want, because at the end of the day they're all outsiders and will always feel shoehorned in because that's what they are.
It's the retreading of guiding Sora down their path. Rather than something different, it feels shoehorned in to have them there like they didn't quite know what to do this time outside of planting a big boss fight.
 
Oct 26, 2017
638
I think it at least should have the ones that have already been in it. It really does feel weird to never see any of the gang from Radiant Garden when they've been in both the console games and some of the portable ones.
 
Dec 15, 2018
528
It's the retreading of guiding Sora down their path. Rather than something different, it feels shoehorned in to have them there like they didn't quite know what to do this time outside of planting a big boss fight.
This a flaw of the story of three then not the Disney stuff though. Xehanort and his cronies need to guide Sora so he can get his seven lights to fight their thirteen darknesses.
 
Jun 21, 2018
981
I agree 1 did the best job of implementing them because 1 has the villains as the main bad guys for the majority of the time. But 2, nah, just cause you go there twice and fight some org members in them doesn't mean they needed to be there. They are there to just coax Sora on, that's it. In 3 they're not there because of Sora, they're there because of the contents of the world.
2 had one of the Organization members go down in a Disney World. If you eliminate Disney worlds from 3, you realize that them being there doesn't matter to the story.

The backup plan doesn't matter at all. The search for the black box never comes up again for the organization. It also has no bearing on this game's plot. The research they do doesn't matter. Sora got nothing from these worlds, despite going to them to get the power of waking.
 
Oct 25, 2017
346
I feel they are necessary, and KH3 is lesser for their lack. Though lesser still for the lack of any substantial end-game content.

The thing is, I'm not mad about it because I have every expectation that the Final Mix DLC will deliver on both facets.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,528
Yeah it's like having different elements from both movie and game franchises is part of the game's identity.
I don’t get what you’re trying to say here. The main appeal (yes the main appeal) was the Disney aspect. The FF characters did serve a bigger role but they were never nearly as important as Disney. The Disney worlds do have a problem with serving the overall plot but they still are what the series is based around.

Sora feels tacked on because he is. He’s an outsider that helps the Disney cast with their problems, maybe gets some clues about characters or such, and then moves onto the next Disney world.
 
Oct 28, 2017
8,884
They're about as impactful as the disney worlds, so you might as well take those out too by that token.
This is the best argument one could make. Disney worlds mean fuck all to the overall plot and that some are saying theyre more important in 3 than in any other KH game demonstrates how true your statement is, because theyre not at all significant to the main plot of KH3. If ff gets excluded because theyre unimportant to the story than all the disney worlds should be discarded as well. OR, we just put them both in because the series is much better for having both. This shouldn't have been an issue.

The Black Box isn't shoehorned. It's established early on that one exists (even earlier if you watched Back Cover) and it's referenced several times throughout the game. It's just that the box is relevant to the next arc. Part of
KH3 is planting seeds for what comes next.
And the disney worlds didn't do anything to advance that plot because they didn't have anything to do with it. That information was merely given to us by members happening to look in disney worlds for it but could have just as easily been mentioned in a cut scene literally anywhere else. The disney worlds didn't do anything to advance that plot-it was only dialogue from the organization that gave us that information.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
76
Because the Disney “cameos” are like 75% of the games with the occasional original world thrown in. FF was never on the same level as Disney in the series.
So we're not exploring Final Fantasy worlds, ok. But you'd rather listen to a different voice actor run around as Woody saying basic phrases instead of having Cloud do the exact same thing... I'm lost.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,847
The Black Box isn't shoehorned. It's established early on that one exists (even earlier if you watched Back Cover) and it's referenced several times throughout the game. It's just that the box is relevant to the next arc. Part of KH3 is planting seeds for what comes next.
I know this. And yes, it does feel that way because the subplot just stops cold until the post credits end of the game. It wasn't necessary to plant seeds for the next game, they could have had a graceful bow and let it end then do some very special secret ending with hints at the next game. In fact, planting the seeds for the next game the way they did is why I have such mixed feelings on this too. It makes it feel like Nomura is more excited about the next thing then finishing this arc off. In fact, something that goes totally unexplained is how they are even aware of the black box's existence. It's really out of nowhere when nothing was ever hinted that they knew about it. Nor do any secret reports talk about it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,386
KH1 Disney worlds were actually contributing to the main plot. KH2 had a lot less plot relevance but at least an Organization member was fought in one and you revisited them as part of the story. KH3 Disney worlds are one shots with no plot relevance. Nothing of importance happens.
I think stopping the organisation from causing shit on each world is reason enough. It's like a classic TV episodic format where the generic villians cause shit on a different planet or part of the town and there's an arc building up for the finale.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,528
So we're not exploring Final Fantasy worlds, ok. But you'd rather listen to a different voice actor run around as Woody saying basic phrases instead of having Cloud do the exact same thing... I'm lost.
What? If the series was based around going to Final Fantasy worlds than that would be a different story. But the series is centered around exploring Disney worlds. My point was that Disney has always been the bulk of the series’ running time with FF taking a backseat.
 
Sep 21, 2018
185
I don’t get what you’re trying to say here. The main appeal (yes the main appeal) was the Disney aspect. The FF characters did serve a bigger role but they were never nearly as important as Disney. The Disney worlds do have a problem with serving the overall plot but they still are what the series is based around.

Sora feels tacked on because he is. He’s an outsider that helps the Disney cast with their problems, maybe gets some clues about characters or such, and then moves onto the next Disney world.
My point is that it's not just one thing that people likes about the games, and just scalping part of what built the franchise because it's not critical is stupid. Just because the worlds are more of a draw isn't a good excuse to just excise other things.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,528
My point is that it's not just one thing that people likes about the games, and just scalping part of what built the franchise because it's not critical is stupid. Just because the worlds are more of a draw isn't a good excuse to just excise other things.
Final Fantasy didn’t build the series though. It was always a Disney game featuring FF cameos. Even in KH1 they weren’t essential to the plot. You met them, they gave some exposition, and then you went off to Disney worlds for the majority of the game and talked to them for a little later on at the end.

If the game was created being an equal crossover series than getting rid of the FF characters would suck. But it wasn’t.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,648
I know this. And yes, it does feel that way because the subplot just stops cold until the post credits end of the game. It wasn't necessary to plant seeds for the next game, they could have had a graceful bow and let it end then do some very special secret ending with hints at the next game. In fact, planting the seeds for the next game the way they did is why I have such mixed feelings on this too. It makes it feel like Nomura is more excited about the next thing then finishing this arc off. In fact, something that goes totally unexplained is how they are even aware of the black box's existence. It's really out of nowhere when nothing was ever hinted that they knew about it. Nor do any secret reports talk about it.
I mean, the box, the thing that was hinted at off and on through out the game, is specifically brought to light in the epilogue in tandem with the reveal that Xigbar is Luxu (which is hinted at in secret reports). But we're not supposed to know what's in the box yet. Only that it exists, that Luxu was entrusted with it, and that it holds some purpose for the Master of Masters. And now that Xehanort is dead, whatever purpose that is will be revealed in the next arc.

None of this impedes the main crux of KH3, which is the conclusion of the battle with Xehanort.
 
Oct 27, 2017
76
What? If the series was based around going to Final Fantasy worlds than that would be a different story. But the series is centered around exploring Disney worlds. My point was that Disney has always been the bulk of the series’ running time with FF taking a backseat.
So why are you okay with them getting rid of the backseat? That's less content for everyone. We didn't even get more Disney worlds in return. Literally got less worlds than KH2 and less characters overall. Is that the future we want from the series?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,386
This is the best argument one could make. Disney worlds mean fuck all to the overall plot and that some are saying theyre more important in 3 than in any other KH game demonstrates how true your statement is, because theyre not at all significant to the main plot of KH3. If ff gets excluded because theyre unimportant to the story than all the disney worlds should be discarded as well. OR, we just put them both in because the series is much better for having both. This shouldn't have been an issue.

And the disney worlds didn't do anything to advance that plot because they didn't have anything to do with it. That information was merely given to us by members happening to look in disney worlds for it but could have just as easily been mentioned in a cut scene literally anywhere else. The disney worlds didn't do anything to advance that plot-it was only dialogue from the organization that gave us that information.
Overall Mickey, Donald and Goofy are usually there during forms for most of the climactic battles, not FF characters. That should be enough then to say where the priority always was.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,274
Singapore
Final Fantasy characters aren't important. Final Fantasy flavor is. I think those are very different things and people usually confuse them. Would it be cooler if there were more FF character cameos, and if FF character from previous KH games returned? Sure. Is it essential? No. But without such characters is there no Final Fantasy connection left in Kingdom Hearts? Not at all, the games are still filled with FF flavor.

- The entire magic system in KH is themed after Final Fantasy spell conventions
- The shops in the series are all represented by moogles
- There are plenty of enemy reference nods at FF stuff - bombs, black mages, etc
- The other FF constants like the various summons, chocobos, catuar, etc tend to be plugged in the games somewhere
- There are weapon references to FF stuff as well in some of the keyblade designs and forms

Ultimately, KH is less Disney x FF and more Disney x Disney in the vein of FF. The most important part is not literally having FF characters appear, but that the entire game and every element of it feel familiar to FF fans because they're from the same creators.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,528
So why are you okay with them getting rid of the backseat? That's less content for everyone. We didn't even get more Disney worlds in return. Literally got less worlds than KH2 and less characters overall. Is that the future we want from the series?
I mean having the backseat would be better but I’m just saying the core engine is still there to support it. And the Disney worlds in KH3 are massive compared to KH2’s which had to make us go to them twice to pad out the running time so I’m not sure that’s really a valid excuse.

Making a bunch of small, flat hallways with loading screens in every room for the PS2 was a lot easier than the giant worlds of KH3 for modern day systems.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,274
Singapore
So why are you okay with them getting rid of the backseat? That's less content for everyone. We didn't even get more Disney worlds in return. Literally got less worlds than KH2 and less characters overall. Is that the future we want from the series?
It's less of one sort of content, but not necessarily less content overall. That's something you need to take into consideration. The worlds are now bigger than ever before, so while there are less worlds, each world has more stuff. The characters also look better than ever before, so while there might be less characters (not sure if that's even actually true, haven't counted) the level of detail and their reactions and animations are better than they were before. Would it be great to have that level of detail and quality and still have more worlds and more characters? Sure. But there's a limit to how much stuff there can be in any given product. I'll take quality over quantity any day, especially when the quantity already feels like plenty.
 
Oct 27, 2017
770
Detroit, MI
FF characters are hugely important to me in KIngdom Hearts and it's a shame they aren't there. They're what sparked my interest in the series in the first place.

Way back when, before Cloud appeared in everything Square made, his appearance was teased in the marketing for the original game. There was an old three or four page advertisement spread in an issue of EGM where each page ran part of the tagline "You never know who you're going to run into next" and each featured different Disney characters until the final page, where there stood Cloud freaking Strife in his ridiculous KH gear. I literally screamed, I will never forget that feeling lol. I still have the pages too. :)

As much as I have enjoyed KH3, knowing that I'm not going to turn a corner and bump into Cloud, or buy potions from Cid, or duke it out with Sephiroth is a huge disappointment. I can understand Nomura's reasoning for axing them, there's a LOT of ground to cover for KH's original characters and FF has spin-offs aplenty these days, but some of the FF characters' stories feel incomplete, and at the very least they deserved some kind of send off with Sora and his crew (and us).
 
OP
OP
Septimus Prime
Oct 25, 2017
3,456
The characters also look better than ever before, so while there might be less characters (not sure if that's even actually true, haven't counted) the level of detail and their reactions and animations are better than they were before. Would it be great to have that level of detail and quality and still have more worlds and more characters? Sure.
That's another thing, too. People are looking forward to FFVII Remake because they want that level of detail and expression on the FFVII characters! It seems like they missed an easy slam dunk by not delivering that now with KHIII.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,847
It's less of one sort of content, but not necessarily less content overall. That's something you need to take into consideration. The worlds are now bigger than ever before, so while there are less worlds, each world has more stuff. The characters also look better than ever before, so while there might be less characters (not sure if that's even actually true, haven't counted) the level of detail and their reactions and animations are better than they were before. Would it be great to have that level of detail and quality and still have more worlds and more characters? Sure. But there's a limit to how much stuff there can be in any given product. I'll take quality over quantity any day, especially when the quantity already feels like plenty.
But they really don't have more stuff. I feel like there's less stuff to do overall than many past titles, especially post game. I have an Ultima Keyblade that I don't have much use for.
 
The way KH handled both Disney and Final Fantasy is disappointing and feels like such a missed opportunity. I kind of think that some other developer could have been a lot more creative with the concept.
 
Oct 28, 2017
8,884
Overall Mickey, Donald and Goofy are usually there during forms for most of the climactic battles, not FF characters. That should be enough then to say where the priority always was.
Thats not the argument thats being had. If were saying that FF characters werent included because they didn't contribute to the story, then the disney WORLDS go too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
303
I'll say yes. My wife and I are playing through 3 right now (both of us only played 1 & 2, never cared about the thousand offshoots) and we are probably around 3/4ths through the game and my wife LOVES the FF stuff, and she's super bummed we haven't come across any FF characters. I think that both Disney and FF should be roughly 50/50 represented in the game, that is what the series was founded on, but they strayed so far away from that, it just feels super weird.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,847
Each world was incredibly easy to 100% complete and I did so easily before even reaching the end of the game. There was a serious lack of stuff to do in each world. I don't count Lucky Emblems to be more stuff to do, it's very much filler. Gummiship stuff is also weak with lots of reused patterns making them all feel the same or similar with the exception of bosses being very unique. The exploration is weak as well making you hunt crystals and constellations. It felt tedious and a slog with how slow exploration can be in space and the long treks from points A to B.