Does Kingdom Hearts HAVE TO have Final Fantasy characters?

Do they have to be there?

  • Yes

    Votes: 537 61.1%
  • No

    Votes: 342 38.9%

  • Total voters
    879
Nov 6, 2017
825
From an outsider perspective Kingdom Hearts seems to focus on it's original characters and story with Disney stuff being secondary to that. Final Fantasy stuff is a tier below that, even, and no FF characters were even mentioned in the story explanations I've seen on YoutTube. They probably could stop including FF characters without it causing much trouble.
 

LAA

Member
Oct 28, 2017
429
I don't think it HAS to at this point, no, I think KH is established enough at this point that it doesn't need FF. Arguably Disney either, but I think it'd lose more than it has to gain doing that.
As KH3 was the end of an arc though, one which FF characters have been somewhat affected by, it is a shame they weren't mentioned or referenced at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,255
Kingdom Hearts was better as a crossover. As has been said by others, the complete excising of the FF characters feels forced as opposed to some natural progression in the narrative, and is a negative for the series.
It doesn't feel forced at all, though. Those characters haven't been relevant in years. The last time we had any notable FF presence was in 2006. Sora and co have largely moved on and don't need to be going back to Leon for help (and he never really cared about anything outside of Radiant Garden anyway).

It's been a pretty natural progression as the main plot moves in a different direction that the FF stuff gets left behind. 3 was busy enough and had enough characters without having a whole section with Sora going off to Radiant Garden to dick around with Leon, Yuffie and Cloud for an hour or so.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
22,078
It doesn't feel forced at all, though. Those characters haven't been relevant in years. The last time we had any notable FF presence was in 2006. Sora and co have largely moved on and don't need to be going back to Leon for help (and he never really cared about anything outside of Radiant Garden anyway).

It's been a pretty natural progression as the main plot moves in a different direction that the FF stuff gets left behind. 3 was busy enough and had enough characters without having a whole section with Sora going off to Radiant Garden to dick around with Leon, Yuffie and Cloud for an hour or so.
I am actually kind of not cool with Radiant Garden being a cutscene-only world. We only get to hear that MARVELOUS new Hollow Bastion arrangement for like eight or nine seconds in the final game despite the fact that the plot KEEPS going back there to check in, and it's a crime.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,979
Georgia, US
Alleged Superfans digging in their heels only because kh3 doesn't have any. Guarantee if it did have some they would be gassing up how essential they are to the series.
But they're not. The ending was just as impactful without them because of the many games building up the OC's beyond just 1 & 2.
 
Last edited:
Nov 15, 2017
1,690
Fuck yes, this series was fucking known because of Disney x Square Enix, not Disney x
Very wack that KH 3 has no characters and just FF references
 
Oct 25, 2017
934
They don't really *have to* add the characters and honestly, the limited selection of characters they've been using (which I believe is restricted to only games that Nomura is personally comfortable using) has always been a bit disappointing

At the same time, the characters they did add were used pretty well. I've always loved that the FF characters were used in more creative ways to their Disney counterparts (like having a world with a mixed FF7 / FF8 / FF10 Cast, or Hades summoning Auron, or Sephiroth being a fightable boss, or those FF8 goons acting as rivals).

I think more FF bosses could be an especially good idea tbh. With every passing game there's been fewer big Disney movies to work with (and subsequently, fewer Disney villains). The bosses for KH3's Disney Worlds are really lacking in parts, and it seems like they're only fine with reusing Maleficent and Pete over and over, so I think using more FF bosses could definitely be a boon.

Back to my point though, I think with how much more creative they can be with FF characters, I think they should definitely continue to use them more. They don't have to, but I think it's a waste to not to.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
Alleged Superfans digging in their heels only because kh3 doesn't have any. Guarantee if it did have some they would be gassing up how essential they are to the series.
Nope. FF was never essential. The franchise was never FF + Disney, it was Disney Originals + Disney Classics with SE cameos. That's what the series was in game one and it hasn't changed. Let die this revisionism that the FF side was ever important in Kingdom Hearts. Also, the majority of games in the franchise have no FF characters save moogles.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,940
Nope. FF was never essential. The franchise was never FF + Disney, it was Disney Originals + Disney Classics with SE cameos. That's what the series was in game one and it hasn't changed. Let die this revisionism that the FF side was ever important in Kingdom Hearts. Also, the majority of games in the franchise have no FF characters save moogles.
I'm not the one rewriting history here LOL
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,078
Nope. FF was never essential. The franchise was never FF + Disney, it was Disney Originals + Disney Classics with SE cameos. That's what the series was in game one and it hasn't changed. Let die this revisionism that the FF side was ever important in Kingdom Hearts. Also, the majority of games in the franchise have no FF characters save moogles.
A lot of people bought the first game because of the crossover appeal. I wouldn’t have given it the time of day if Cloud wasn’t in it.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
I'm not the one rewriting history here LOL
Keep pretending that KH has to have FF cameos.
A lot of people bought the first game because of the crossover appeal. I wouldn’t have given it the time of day if Cloud wasn’t in it.
Okay, but that doesn't make FF have equal standing with Disney in Kingdom Hearts. Furthermore, that doesn't refute my statement. FF isn't the important part of KH and the games don't have to have FF cameos. KH3 isn't broken because there's no cameos.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,940
Keep pretending that KH has to have FF cameos.
61% of people polled agree that it does so you're just acting like a delusional fanboy when you dismiss the importance of it.

I bought the game in 2002 for the FF characters as well as the Disney Characters. Don't gaslight people by saying it isn't important to the DNA of the series.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,120
Orlando, FL
It obviously doesn't need it, because the last few games have had none.

And as long as we're giving a big focus to all these FF-esque original characters from the organization and age of fairytales, it's fine without them. KH has a big issue with the expanded world being too large to tell any sort of satisfying story and the Radiant Garden crew having their story finished and left untouched was for the best in 3.

But the moment we're done with OG characters and go back to a simple story about a boy, a dog and a duck exploring Disney worlds, I want Noctis to show up so I can punch him in the face.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
22,078
Okay, but that doesn't make FF have equal standing with Disney in Kingdom Hearts. Furthermore, that doesn't refute literally anything in my statement.
Nobody said anything about EQUAL standing. I don't want a Midgar world or anything. But having some side characters or optional boss fights against Final Fantasy characters should not be too much to ask. I LIKED the Paradox Cups and the secret bosses.

Meanwhile KH3's only secret boss is a generic Heartless. Joy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,255
61% of people polled agree that it does so you're just acting like a delusional fanboy when you dismiss the importance of it.

I bought the game in 2002 for the FF characters as well as the Disney Characters. Don't gaslight people by saying it isn't important to the DNA of the series.
It isn't important to the DNA of the series, as evidenced by the fact that the series has gotten by just fine with virtually no Final Fantasy cameos over the past 13 years, and that 3 is the fastest selling game ever in the series.

It's fine that you personally liked that stuff, but it was never important to the DNA of the series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
It's why I got into the series and still my favorite parts of the games I've played so I'm going to say yes. Hell I wish we got FF worlds(like Midgar or Dollet).
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,078
It isn't important to the DNA of the series, as evidenced by the fact that the series has gotten by just fine with virtually no Final Fantasy cameos over the past 13 years, and that 3 is the fastest selling game ever in the series.

It's fine that you personally liked that stuff, but it was never important to the DNA of the series.
And yet the last couple of games have had positively shitty side content without them. Especially KH3 and Dream Drop Distance.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,964
Alleged Superfans digging in their heels only because kh3 doesn't have any. Guarantee if it did have some they would be gassing up how essential they are to the series.
Nope.

FF characters have been such a little part of Kingdom Hearts for years that the idea of a KH game where they aren't present isn't a foreign concept. The superfans you claim would be "gassing up" how essential they are are the very same people that have recognized, for years, that the Final Fantasy aspect isn't that important at all.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
61% of people polled agree that it does so you're just acting like a delusional fanboy when you dismiss the importance of it.

I bought the game in 2002 for the FF characters as well as the Disney Characters. Don't gaslight people by saying it isn't important to the DNA of the series.
A majority can be wrong. "Do they have to be there?" is provably false, considering that there are a number of KH games that don't have any. And I'm not letting you shift the goalposts to some FF influences bullshit when the conversation is about cameos.

Furthermore, miss me with some "61% of people polled" when there's less than 1000 people people responding. You dare accuse me of gaslighting? FOH.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,255
And yet the last couple of games have had positively shitty side content without them. Especially KH3 and Dream Drop Distance.
3 probably has the best side content of any first release game ever in the series (although some of the previous western releases had more due to adding a lot after the Japanese release).

DDD was a little more bare, but it was still a fine game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,940
It isn't important to the DNA of the series, as evidenced by the fact that the series has gotten by just fine with virtually no Final Fantasy cameos over the past 13 years, and that 3 is the fastest selling game ever in the series.

It's fine that you personally liked that stuff, but it was never important to the DNA of the series.
Gotten by just fine by having some of the worst entries of it's lifespan? Not that FF characters would have magically fixed that, but It definitely would have elevated 3 for me. Because as it stands I don't care how much 3 sold, it is pretty disappointing to a heck of a lot of people.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,078
3 probably has the best side content of any first release game ever in the series (although some of the previous western releases had more due to adding a lot after the Japanese release).

DDD was a little more bare, but it was still a fine game.
The side content in 3 is all minigames, though. If you want actual combat challenges or arena fights you're stuck grinding Dark Inferno over and over again.

Both DDD and 3 have one superboss each and neither superboss is cool or fun to fight. Even BBS had more.

The lack of FF isn't what causes a lack of post game. Sepheroth is 1 boss. What are you talking about?
The Paradox Cups also had you fight Cloud, Leon, Tifa and Yuffie. Arena battles are fun.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,136
I would prefer it since it terms of cameo I care more about FF characters than Disney. That said it's not a super huge bummer as I play through KHIII so whatever.
 
The side content in 3 is all minigames, though. If you want actual combat challenges or arena fights you're stuck grinding Dark Inferno over and over again.

Both DDD and 3 have one superboss each and neither superboss is cool or fun to fight. Even BBS had more.



The Paradox Cups also had you fight Cloud, Leon, Tifa and Yuffie. Arena battles are fun.
Thats hardly a ton of content, though. KH2 had little post game until FM and FM added strictly KH content.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,940
A majority can be wrong. "Do they have to be there?" is provably false, considering that there are a number of KH games that don't have any. And I'm not letting you shift the goalposts to some FF influences bullshit when the conversation is about cameos.
"Do they have to be there" is not a literal question, you're being purposely pedantic. I didn't shift a single goal post, you're just trying to gaslight away people's love for these characters and the impact they had in 1 and 2.

Furthermore, miss me with some "61% of people polled" when there's less than 1000 people people responding. You dare accuse me of gaslighting? FOH.
Dismiss people all you want. Their opinions matter.

Stop misusing the word gaslight.
I'm not. They are trying to paint an image of something that isn't reality. ("These characters never mattered. The series is fine without them. No one cares. It was never Disney+FF") That's gaslighting. Add to the conversation or move on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,964
"Do they have to be there" is not a literal question, you're being purposely pedantic. I didn't shift a single goal post, you're just trying to gaslight away people's love for these characters and the impact they had in 1 and 2.
Stop misusing the word gaslight.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,078
Thats hardly a ton of content, though. KH2 had little post game until FM and FM added strictly KH content.
I'm aware. It's still more than 3 has, though. And the absence of characters like Cloud and Leon is felt in 3. If you don't care about them, that's fine, but acting like your opinions are the only valid ones is kind of shitty.

Obviously none of these characters NEED to be in the game. But they IMPROVE the games by being there in a way that their absence does not. It's not like they've been removed to make room for other, cooler optional content and secret bosses. They're just gone.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,795
I am glad to see ResetEra get this one right. Though I would like a 3rd polling option of, "No, but..." I think that KH doesn't need, but it is a lot better with them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,255
Gotten by just fine by having some of the worst entries of it's lifespan? Not that FF characters would have magically fixed that, but It definitely would have elevated 3 for me. Because as it stands I don't care how much 3 sold, it is pretty disappointing to a heck of a lot of people.
3, BBS, and 0.2 are all significantly better games than 1 and 2 in my mind. And clearly most people agree that 3 is a great game and really appealing because it's been very well received. I'm sorry that the game wasn't what you wanted, but throwing some random FF cameos in the game would have been to its detriment most likely.

The side content in 3 is all minigames, though. If you want actual combat challenges or arena fights you're stuck grinding Dark Inferno over and over again.

Both DDD and 3 have one superboss each and neither superboss is cool or fun to fight. Even BBS had more.
3 also has the battle gates and lucky emblems. And remember that the western release of BBS had a lot of extra content added that wasn't in the original Japanese release. Significant post game content always comes later with Kingdom Hearts.

"Do they have to be there" is not a literal question, you're being purposely pedantic. I didn't shift a single goal post, you're just trying to gaslight away people's love for these characters and the impact they had in 1 and 2.
1, I'll give you.

2? The "impact" FF characters had in 2 consisted of Auron as a temporary party member and a couple of scenes of Cloud and Leon helping you out during a midgame setpiece (but most of the important story parts of that event happened with no FF characters around). It's not like they were showing up to help you with the final battle or anything.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
Both DDD and 3 have one superboss each and neither superboss is cool or fun to fight. Even BBS had more
BBS has one Superboss in the initial release. More were added with the NA localization and Final Mix. Every KH has 1 boss until its overhauled. We basically got KH3 at the same time as Japan, so one boss. There's a lot to be added in Final Mix as per the usual.
 
Dec 8, 2017
221
In my opinion, the moment Nomura introduced new characters with 358/2 and Birth by Sleep, the story and characters outgrew those from Final Fantasy and even Disney's.

Kingdom Hearts 3 had so many plot points to resolve, that I felt that the Disney worlds got in the way of that. I would have prefered to have more important worlds to tell the story better, than wander around for hours on Frozen world doing absolutely nothing that gives value to the plot. The gameplay was amazing in all those worlds, but I think a lot of people are very invested in the story and characters already, to have it rushed because the mandatory Disney's worlds.

The way I see it, Nomura should either start involving Disney and FF characters/worlds in important plot points, or get rid of them as much as he can.

Kingdom Hearts 3 doesn't have:
A full Twilight Town with a transport to Yen Sid Tower
Land of Departure
Radiant Garden
A full Dark World

Those worlds were extremely important to the plot for Kingdom Hearts 3. I would've prefered to play in those worlds.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,078
3 also has the battle gates and lucky emblems. And remember that the western release of BBS had a lot of extra content added that wasn't in the original Japanese release. Significant post game content always comes later with Kingdom Hearts.
The battlegates are nothing compared to the arena cups, though. Even Dream Drop Distance, the worst game in the series, had battle portals, and it had MORE than 3 has.

BBS has one Superboss in the initial release. More were added with the NA localization and Final Mix. Every KH has 1 boss until its overhauled. We basically got KH3 at the same time as Japan, so one boss. There's a lot to be added in Final Mix as per the usual.
I'm aware, yeah. But without stuff like the Coliseum/Mirage Arena, you're basically stuck...sledding and collecting crabs. There's only two Flash Tracer stages and once you beat them both that's it. I like that they tried to give the worlds contextual side content, but without a dedicated battle area, it just kind of feels lackluster overall.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
22,078
I at least give them props for trying to cache each world's side content within the context of that world. It's cool and it's something the series DIDN'T do before.

But the fact we have Olympus and there's no way to access the Coliseum and fight expanding groups of enemies or cameo boss battles feels like an absolute missed opportunity. Hell, they could even contextualize it as Zeus holding some sort of tournament for the gods to watch up at the top of Olympus if they don't want to reuse the Coliseum ITSELF again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,593
I missed them. Didn't ruin the game obviously but if you'd told me months ago there wouldn't be any in it I wouldn't have believed it. I would've settled for a visitable Radiant Garden, on the smaller side like Twilight Town, with a few FF characters getting about as much presence as Hayner, Pence and Olette.

I can't help but wonder if the VII Remake has a bit to do with it. Since so many of them are VII characters I could see them wanting to hold back on showing them to increase anticipation for the remake.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
22,078
It adds to the experience, but they are not needed for the core story. I did miss seeing Cloud and Squa-----LEON in KH3.
I started replaying KH2FM last night now that I finished 3 and I loved the fact that your first stop after leaving Twilight Town is to go check in on Leon and the gang.

Also...

Leon would've been way more useful in the final fight than Kairi ever was.
 
Oct 27, 2017
133
I get Nomura feeling like the kingdom hearts characters can stand on their own, but it's also a ton of fun to have FF characters involved.
They are not needed, but definitely appreciated.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
I at least give them props for trying to cache each world's side content within the context of that world. It's cool and it's something the series DIDN'T do before.

But the fact we have Olympus and there's no way to access the Coliseum and fight expanding groups of enemies or cameo boss battles feels like an absolute missed opportunity. Hell, they could even contextualize it as Zeus holding some sort of tournament for the gods to watch up at the top of Olympus if they don't want to reuse the Coliseum ITSELF again.
I actually thought that Olympus is historically the best at utilizing FF characters. I would have loved if for example Snow Villers was in Arendelle. Doing stuff like that would have been pretty amazing. My argument is that they aren't crucial even if they can tend to be beneficial.

Like, this thread is literally phrased does KH have to have FF characters and that's a flat no, votes be damned. We've had games without them and as Nomura himself stated KH doesn't need FF anymore. It was only ever there to entice people. Framing it as necessary to the series is just false.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
22,078
I actually thought that Olympus is historically the best at utilizing FF characters. I would have loved if for example Snow Villers was in Arendelle. Doing stuff like that would have been pretty amazing. My argument is that they aren't crucial even if they can tend to be beneficial.

Like, this thread is literally phrased does KH have to have FF characters and that's a flat no, votes be damned. We've had games without them and as Nomura himself stated KH doesn't need FF anymore. It was only ever there to entice people. Framing it as necessary to the series is just false.
My stance is always, the games don't need them, but the series is better with them than without them.

Even Union Cross manages to weave them in from time to time. It had fucking Heartless Kefka!