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Does Kingdom Hearts HAVE TO have Final Fantasy characters?

Do they have to be there?

  • Yes

    Votes: 537 61.1%
  • No

    Votes: 342 38.9%

  • Total voters
    879
Oct 28, 2017
11,740
It doesn't feel forced at all, though. Those characters haven't been relevant in years. The last time we had any notable FF presence was in 2006. Sora and co have largely moved on and don't need to be going back to Leon for help (and he never really cared about anything outside of Radiant Garden anyway).

It's been a pretty natural progression as the main plot moves in a different direction that the FF stuff gets left behind. 3 was busy enough and had enough characters without having a whole section with Sora going off to Radiant Garden to dick around with Leon, Yuffie and Cloud for an hour or so.
3/4s of the game is literally doing nothing but dicking off at Disney worlds before the game says "ok now the actual story is going to happen" in the last quarter ofthe game. I cant get over people using that argument to justify the lack of ff characters. Nothing in the Disney worlds had any consequence to the end story of this series.
 

Redcrayon

Zoinks!
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
5,510
UK
I appreciate the heated discussion in here is on-topic considering the thread title, but please remember you can disagree without the hostility.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,293
I started replaying KH2FM last night now that I finished 3 and I loved the fact that your first stop after leaving Twilight Town is to go check in on Leon and the gang.

Also...

Leon would've been way more useful in the final fight than Kairi ever was.
Yeah, thats the only aspect that I miss....the relationship between the FF characters and Sora. I understand WHY they didn't include them...theres just way too many characters for how long the game was. Maybe some DLC will fix that.

Cloud and Leon going up against Xeonort would have been a sight.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,078
No they don’t need them, but like, Squall, Yuffie, Aerith, and others were pretty important side characters in Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2.

It is a bit weird that they don’t show up or are even mentioned at all in 3. It’s also kind of a big missed opportunity to not have somebody like Lightning or anyone else from a more contemporary Final Fantasy or Square Enix game.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,878
No they don’t need them, but like, Squall, Yuffie, Aerith, and others were pretty important side characters in Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2.

It is a bit weird that they don’t show up or are even mentioned at all in 3. It’s also kind of a big missed opportunity to not have somebody like Lightning or anyone else from a more contemporary Final Fantasy or Square Enix game.
I'm actually glad Lightning didn't show up. That character would add so little to KH as a whole - Squall and Cloud already have the brooding loner shtick.
 
Oct 27, 2017
209
I think it does. That was the whole point of the original game: a mash-up of Disney and Final Fantasy. I don't mind the KH-specific characters taking center stage, not at all, but part of the joy of the series is seeing how characters from these franchises are changed and interact. KH3 having pretty much none of them from what I've played is jarring, too, considering they set up a few character arcs (notably, hinting at Rinoa) only to completely ignore them. The game's stuffed as it is, but it's disappointing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,291
I'm not. They are trying to paint an image of something that isn't reality. ("These characters never mattered. The series is fine without them. No one cares. It was never Disney+FF") That's gaslighting. Add to the conversation or move on.
To say that the series is fine without FF characters, or that they don't matter to the series in the grand scheme of things, isn't gaslighting. It's stating an opinion. One based on enough evidence (several games that had little to no Final Fantasy representation at all) that suggests that no, Kingdom Hearts does not actually need Final Fantasy characters. It's cool when they show up, and they played a greater role in KH1, CoM, and 2, but the series cast and the universe they inhabit has grown to a point where Final Fantasy characters don't specifically need to be present. And it is in fact possible to make compelling KH games that don't feature them in any significant or even ancillary capacity.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,878
I think it does. That was the whole point of the original game: a mash-up of Disney and Final Fantasy. I don't mind the KH-specific characters taking center stage, not at all, but part of the joy of the series is seeing how characters from these franchises are changed and interact. KH3 having pretty much none of them from what I've played is jarring, too, considering they set up a few character arcs (notably, hinting at Rinoa) only to completely ignore them. The game's stuffed as it is, but it's disappointing.
We at least deserved to see closure on Squall and Cloud's mini-arcs. That shouldn't have been too much to ask, and them having character models would also mean we'd get to fight them as optional bosses, like always.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,224
Axing FF out from the game is especially curious given that

  • FF is one of SE's crown-jewel franchices
  • With FF7remake & XVI presumably next, one would think SE would want to keep exposure for the series going
  • SE has no qualms about using FF characters as fan service, looking at the numerous other compilation/crossover games that feature them
  • As stated before, KH doesn't shy away from a big plot that makes room for lots of characters as it is
 
Dec 15, 2018
1,246
It's worth noting Squall and his gang's story is done now that Radiant Garden is finished. It is strange that there's no acknowledgement of this in three but I guess they thought it wasn't as important as the main story.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,865
“FF characters were only relevant in the KH games most people played! It’s time to move on!”
Who was saying that? They don't have "to move on", they can be cute to see them, but the games don't have to have those cameos to be good enough, as the fans mostly agreed BBS was more than good enough before 3 came out as well. At the moment KH 3 is doing so well with sales, and a generally positive response that we'll see if that percieved relevance changes over time.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,878
Who was saying that? They don't have "to move on", they can be cute to see them, but the games don't have to have those cameos to be good enough, as the fans mostly agreed BBS was more than good enough before 3 came out as well. At the moment KH 3 is doing so well with sales, and a generally positive response that we'll see if that percieved relevance changes over time.
BBS had ONE, though. At least it had one and it acknowledged the series' history. It would've been silly to show Kid Cloud and Kid Squall, so Zack (and unfortunately cut Laguna) showed at least that they cared enough to do it.

3 has none, and a lot of people ARE complaining about their absence. That doesn't mean the game is BAD, but the game is worse by not having them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,865
BBS had ONE, though. At least it had one and it acknowledged the series' history. It would've been silly to show Kid Cloud and Kid Squall, so Zack (and unfortunately cut Laguna) showed at least that they cared enough to do it.

3 has none, and a lot of people ARE complaining about their absence. That doesn't mean the game is BAD, but the game is worse by not having them.
For me the poll "Have to have them" implies the game can't be worth it without them. I said before I'd agree if the poll was "could it be better with them?"
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,970
They were all somehow worse than the original KH characters and that says a lot so no. Did we really need someone like Auron to turn up in a Disney world spouting shit about how it's his story?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,224
They were all somehow worse than the original KH characters and that says a lot so no. Did we really need someone like Auron to turn up in a Disney world spouting shit about how it's his story?
Why and how are they worse tho? I get that it's subjective, but I found Auron (and all the other cameos) to be fun fanservice.

Also , I want a 3rd go round/conclusion to the Cloud/Sephiroth side quest.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,056
Honestly the FF characters have taken a sideline since KH2 and even before then they were less involved side characters than the Disney worlds. They're shown as allies in the battle against Heartless but we never see them do much outside of a few battles and now they're even less involved because the XIII characters made the cast so huge and they're more integral to the plot to boot. The FF guys by comparison are just kinda there now, fighting too but holding no real importance in the story
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,878
Honestly the FF characters have taken a sideline since KH2 and even before then they were less involved side characters than the Disney worlds. They're shown as allies in the battle against Heartless but we never see them do much outside of a few battles and now they're even less involved because the XIII characters made the cast so huge and they're more integral to the plot to boot. The FF guys by comparison are just kinda there now, fighting too but holding no real importance in the story
To be fair, Squall contributed more to the main plot in 1 and 2 than Luxord or Demyx did in ALL the games they were in.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,824
I would say it would be nice for sure, but I didn't see a problem with them getting left out. The FF character have usually been side characters at best in KH and it isn't like they were ever the main focus either. Mind you though it would have been nice though to have had them in some fashion in KH3.
 
Oct 27, 2017
205
I give Nomura a pass on 3 since he was more focused on tying up loose ends with the original KH characters, but moving forward, I would like to see more FF characters integrated into future installments.

I know Nomura is probably trying to give KH its own idenity, but it has always been FF + Disney, which was the main appeal of the series and interested a lot of people to pick up the series in the first place
 
Oct 27, 2017
977
Detroit, MI
I'm probably reading too much into it, but there is a new Bring Arts figure of Cloud in his Kingdom Hearts gear up for pre-order on Square's store. it's interesting though because they don't actually refer to this version as his Kingdom Hearts alt, but as "another form". Kingdom Hearts isn't actually mentioned anywhere in the description.

That kind of makes me think it's a sort of last hurrah for the fans who remember him from the early games and would still like a figure, but that the likelihood of him (or any FF character) coming back to relevance in the KH story/lore, in DLC or side content, is probably not going to happen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,827
Definitely not. And going back through the games, the way a lot of them were used was kinda awkward and weird.

Like with Aerith and Yuffie and Leon in KH1, they were basically loredump machines, explaining stuff about the Keyboard and Heartless and the like to Sora that literally anyone could have done, but there weren't many options at the time, and so the FF cast was used.

KH2, similar deal, except this time Leon and CID and Aerith and all them were basically used to set up the foundation for Tron's world and also some stuff with the DTD/setting the stage for the Ansem the Wise reveal, which, again, anyone could have done (which is made most obvious by having Mickey be the one to actually finish off that plot thread and actually explain most of that stuff in the end, even after the hard work of characters like Leon to get access to that days).

But now, not only are there characters like Mickey and Yen Sid and Ansem the Wise himself wandering around, bit you also have characters like Ienzo and Even and the like, who can very easily fill the ropes the FF cast used to have at explaining random things about the lore. They were only used to do that in the first place because of a lack of options and having them available.

But now that options are hardly lacking anymore it would be kinda weird for Sora to double back and ask, say, Leon, about the Keyboard and what to do next instead of someone like say Mickey or Yen Sid or Aqua/Terra/Ben or Ansem the Wise or one of his apprentices like Ienzo, etc. He has so many good resources for help that some random cast of characters that barely have any reason to know much of anything about this stuff are kinda low on the list.

And then on a lower tier below characters like Leon, you have the characters who truly were just cameos through and through, like Tidus and Wakka and Selphie, who, even back when I was playing KH1 as a kid for the first time honestly just kinda bugged me due to how obviously out of place and forced in they were. They were just kinda, well, there on the Islands. But Sora, Riku, and Kairi barely ever acknowledged that they actually existed and treated them as if they might as well have never been there in the first place, so, well, considering that's how the MCs of the game itself treated them, it's no surprise really that I myself adopted a similar attitude toward that type of character and can't say I really miss them personally considering they were barely treated as though they were actually ever even there to begin with.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
To be fair, Squall contributed more to the main plot in 1 and 2 than Luxord or Demyx did in ALL the games they were in.
Yeah, but Luxord and Demyx's stories are still ongoing (with both looking to be big players in the next arc), while Leon's role pretty much ended halfway through 2 (and even in that game it was only confined to his world).
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,878
Yeah, but Luxord and Demyx's stories are still ongoing (with both looking to be big players in the next arc), while Leon's role pretty much ended halfway through 2 (and even in that game it was only confined to his world).
Right, but they weren’t intended to be that originally. They were just side antagonists - mid-level goons to take out on the way to the big bad - and then Nomura decided to bump them up. He could do that with anyone.
 
Not only Final Fantasy, but Dragon Quest, Chrono and Xenogears as well. Also, bring some Nier and Drakengard and a tip of Mana and we're cool, Square-Enix.

Real answer is no, they don't need to be there, but it's cool regardless
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
Right, but they weren’t intended to be that originally. They were just side antagonists - mid-level goons to take out on the way to the big bad - and then Nomura decided to bump them up. He could do that with anyone.
Part of that is that Nomura has pretty much complete freedom with the Kingdom Hearts cast, while the FF characters are generally more restricted. They already have sort of set stories that they're part of, and it would be weird for their characters to just go in completely different directions.

Using his own cast is a lot more freeing for how Nomura writes Kingdom Hearts. It'd be weird if Leon or Cloud were suddenly characters connected to the Keyblade war or if Aerith turned out to be a reincarnation of Strelitzia or whatever.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,326
Perhaps instead of putting the FF characters into Kingdom Hearts, SE should create an RPG that brings together characters from all the past FFs, like Locke, Cecil, Cloud, Bartz, Squall, Celes, Tifa, etc. Seems like it would be popular based on how many seem to like KH for the FF characters.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,878
Part of that is that Nomura has pretty much complete freedom with the Kingdom Hearts cast, while the FF characters are generally more restricted. They already have sort of set stories that they're part of, and it would be weird for their characters to just go in completely different directions.

Using his own cast is a lot more freeing for how Nomura writes Kingdom Hearts. It'd be weird if Leon or Cloud were suddenly characters connected to the Keyblade war or if Aerith turned out to be a reincarnation of Strelitzia or whatever.
Nomura deciding to go full Kojima and explain everything and every character, no matter how irrelevant, is one of my biggest issues with the series in recent years. We didn’t need explanations or backstories for every single Org member. We didn’t need Back Cover or UX.
 
OP
OP
Septimus Prime
Oct 25, 2017
3,832
It's not. Disney owns KH entirely and it was never a mashup of the two. It's Disney Original Characters visiting Disney Classics with Square Enix cameos.
I can't really say I agree with you. If not in official marketing material (though I remember it being there anyway), the first game was billed as a Disney-FF crossover in magazines and other supplemental material. Moreover, the are several people in this very thread--including me--saying they bought into the series on that premise and bought III expecting these characters to be in it. Personally, I think not having them in the game is a huge disappointment.

I also wouldn't get too hung up by the thread title phrasing. In the thread body, the very first sentence is, "In your opinion, obviously," so the premise is really up to your interpretation. Like, for me, I mean "have to" in the sense that the heart of the game includes them, and so their exclusion makes the game feel heartless and empty to me.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,970
Why and how are they worse tho? I get that it's subjective, but I found Auron (and all the other cameos) to be fun fanservice.

Also , I want a 3rd go round/conclusion to the Cloud/Sephiroth side quest.
Admittedly my post was a bit reactionary because I was thinking of Auron and Aerith, but it's because I found their dialogue worse and their existence almost completely unnecessary. Auron just got in the way of the Olympus plot to me and I would have hated it if a character like that was forced into one of the better Disney worlds in KH3 in place of another character which to me shows that their addition isn't always necessarily an improvement.

I agree that the Leon gang probably should have been in KH3 but don't see the FF stuff as necessary with how poor I think it's usually implemented. If done better, sure, and a secret boss would be nice, but it doesn't seem necessary to me, and the games could be improved in so many other ways. I just don't have faith FF stuff will be implemented well at all.

We don't "need" Star Wars in KH, but Darth Vadar would be cool as a secret boss.
 
Oct 27, 2017
568
It's really unfortunate that the promise of FF characters in Disney Worlds never really panned out. I will say I'm far less a fan of the current stable of Organization and KH characters than the FF characters that were sidelined.

As others have said, the FF characters were basically exposition machines, which speaks to the over all bad storytelling throughout the series. On the whole, most characters have nothing to actually do outside of fill Sora in on convoluted narrative mechanics. I really hope that if the story continues from here it slims down on the convoluted bits and actually gives the supporting cast more active roles and more complete side stories.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,024
I remember playing KH because it had FF characters. It feels bad the FF characters showed less often as time went on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
209
We at least deserved to see closure on Squall and Cloud's mini-arcs. That shouldn't have been too much to ask, and them having character models would also mean we'd get to fight them as optional bosses, like always.
Exactly! The focus on the original characters is completely fine, and the series definitely got convoluted, so I don't blame them for focusing a ton on Sora and co, but... they actively set up narrative arcs for both Squall and Cloud. Tifa's entire ending was centered around finding him, while he was supposed to be fighting Sephiroth, and Squall receives a letter from Rinoa, implying there's more to come.

I haven't finished KH3 yet, so I'm not sure how stuffed it is, exactly, but the game does show cutscenes that take place in Radiant Garden despite us not going there. They could have used the FF characters as a way to check in on Radiant Garden and have Sora discover that Mickey and Riku are out searching again, or something like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,224
Exactly! The focus on the original characters is completely fine, and the series definitely got convoluted, so I don't blame them for focusing a ton on Sora and co, but... they actively set up narrative arcs for both Squall and Cloud. Tifa's entire ending was centered around finding him, while he was supposed to be fighting Sephiroth, and Squall receives a letter from Rinoa, implying there's more to come.

I haven't finished KH3 yet, so I'm not sure how stuffed it is, exactly, but the game does show cutscenes that take place in Radiant Garden despite us not going there. They could have used the FF characters as a way to check in on Radiant Garden and have Sora discover that Mickey and Riku are out searching again, or something like that.
We at least deserved to see closure on Squall and Cloud's mini-arcs. That shouldn't have been too much to ask, and them having character models would also mean we'd get to fight them as optional bosses, like always.
If they offered these (and other FF content) as DLC package would you guys bite? I'd be a little miffed cause all of this should have been in the base game imo. (KH is not KH without FF), but I'd still eat it up and buy it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
209
If they offered these (and other FF content) as DLC package would you guys bite? I'd be a little miffed cause all of this should have been in the base game imo. (KH is not KH without FF), but I'd still eat it up and buy it.
I would, because I'm interested in their arcs as they were set up, but it seems like it would be really weird to do unless Sora's not there. I have no clue what the ending of KH3 is, but it would be weird for them to put this out as a side-story without the main cast in general. Even Final Fantasy XV's stuff simply focused on things that were off-screen by focusing on the characters in question, but they were all important to the story, unlike how Squall and the others are with KH3.
 
Oct 28, 2017
11,740
I can't really say I agree with you. If not in official marketing material (though I remember it being there anyway), the first game was billed as a Disney-FF crossover in magazines and other supplemental material. Moreover, the are several people in this very thread--including me--saying they bought into the series on that premise and bought III expecting these characters to be in it. Personally, I think not having them in the game is a huge disappointment.

I also wouldn't get too hung up by the thread title phrasing. In the thread body, the very first sentence is, "In your opinion, obviously," so the premise is really up to your interpretation. Like, for me, I mean "have to" in the sense that the heart of the game includes them, and so their exclusion makes the game feel heartless and empty to me.


KH3 is just the heartless of KH1 and 2.