But that's what they usually do. Just not the way people expect them to.
The Tegra chip was the newest one they could use in that size.
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Does Nvidia have any chip that we know of that would be ideal for Switch 2 whenever it releases?
- Thread starter Hero of Legend
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The Tegra chip was the newest one they could use in that size.
There wasn't any other option with the X1 and that locked them in. By the time people are thinking the Switch 2 will be released, Ampere will have been on the market for about a year or two. The CPU will be older than that.
A custom SoC will most likely run Nintendo more than a chip that Nvidia can sell to everyone. Shit, using Xavier or Orin would require it to be semi-custom anyway since it has a lot of unnecessary parts to it. And I can't even find any new information on Orin. A new Tegra, made for low-power computing (unlike Xavier and Orin), possibly based on the upcoming Ampere, or at the very least Turing (which will be 3 years old by 2022) is a much safer bet for everyone.
I'm not sure if you're implying the new president will have a hugely different hardware strategy, or that Iwata had a terrible hardware strategy.
How do you know Nintendo never had any other options, were you a fly at the wall at their meetings? To at least get a die shrink, or at best a semi custom chip. I seriously doubt the x1 was their only option.
It depends on how integrated the Nvidia stuff is with their API and the ease of potentially adapting it to other hardware. There's always Qualcomm or Samsung, but the simple answer is Nvidia again. It's not like we have any reason to say Nintendo won't go back to Nvidia other than the existence of competition
For comparability reasons alone, arm cortex is the most likely candidate. A nvidia specific cpu would seriously mess up their current software.
You misunderstood. How do you know Nintendo couldn't have die shrunk the x1 by 2017 if they wanted to? Or at best created a semi custom chip with nvidia?
We're *2.5 years into it's life. Why not? This includes a Switch Pro
8GB is reasonable. The biggest thing imo is bandwidth. They will need to double the bus width at least if it's going to be xbone-ps4 level for a pro model.
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If we look at Nvidia GPU's like the GTX 1660 TI vs GTX 1070, it shows that Turing is a lot more efficient than Pascal. And that is with less bandwidth, ram and Cuda cores. It's the same with the 2080 vs 1080 Ti. 2080 has less ram, bandwidth and Cuda cores yet it's on par or better in many games
Whatever Nintendo goes with the Switch 2, it will be several generations ahead in efficiency compared to Maxwell
Whatever Nintendo goes with the Switch 2, it will be several generations ahead in efficiency compared to Maxwell
oh they definitely could. the rumors were that Nvidia already had an allocation of X1s to be made (at 20nm) that Nintendo got for cheap. they probably weighed the option of a die shrink for launch, or just wait down the line.
2.5 years maybe when it's 4-5 years we can expect to hear something. At best maybe we'll get a pro.
I know there is a rumor floating out there, but it would be a custom version of the chip, since it doesn't have a general ARM cpu core, it uses 8 of Nvidia's ARM Carmel cores. It is also a chip 3 times bigger than what's inside the current Switch model, that is a little bigger than a GTX 1070.
So it could be a custom chip that they say is Xavier, but it's not going to be the Xavier chip that we know.
How is compatibility between carmel cores and the A57s (and I guess the a53s) in the switch?
They could have perhaps taken Parker and cut the unnecessary parts, but that would have cost them more and perhaps it was too late for that. But still, X1 was like 2 years old tech when the Switch released and it did the job and was still one of the most capable mobile chips regarding graphics....., using Xavier in 2021 or later would be worse in comparison. And they are in a different position now, they know the concept is popular and i doubt they will completely cheap out on Switch 2. A part of the appeal of the hybrid concept is that they get full console games on the go, they will have to do something after PS5 releases.
I'm not talking about a rumor. I've said it would probably be a custom version of that chip since 2016
It's possible that they use the Volta iGPU that Xavier SoC used, it won't use any other parts of that chip though. The non custom chip is 9 Billion transistors in a 12nm chip with a die area of 350mm^2. For perspective, the xb1x die is 7 billion transistors in a 16nm chip with a die area of 359mm^2.
What you're saying is that they use 12nm Volta or move Volta to 7nm+ (highly unlikely given Nvidia's history).
The most likely architecture is Ampere, now that Nintendo is using a 12nm Tegra X1, any new SoC would use a smaller node to achieve higher performance, the Xavier chip is still using a custom cpu and has a tdp of 30 watts.
So the devkit isn't public, there isn't much information on it, but from what I've been able to gather, it would need new instruction sets to be compatible with Switch software. It also has a much larger die area (and thus more expensive) and uses more energy than an A76, while also being a lower performer, though it is on a 12nm process while A76 benefits from 7nm.
Whether the Pro really exists or not, I'm not sure yet, but the configuration only really makes sense as an Ampere GPU with 768 to 1024 ALU with a performance target between 4 and 5 times the current model. It might only have 4 A76 cores and a higher clock, with maybe some A55 cores for the OS and possibly available for games. This is speculation though, I don't have any solid information about a new model coming.
One other thing that we haven't mentioned in this thread is the delayed "next gen" model that a Nintendo R&D employee seemed to leak to Nikkei a few months back.
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Probably cost to be honest. Also getting them to work efficiently together to maximize output is more trouble than it's worth.
With these two reports: The Sharp CEO saying they were supplying Nintendo with Igzo displays (via WSJ) and the Nikkei leak from seemingly Nintendo's R&D, about a next gen Switch being delayed or coming after the switch lite to be more specific.
The cost of those displays prohibits its use in already released models imo, and they can do a lot more than accurate colors and save battery, they quickly switch the display on and off which is great for VR, have much clarity, allowing for seemingly twice the resolution, and offer variable refresh rate technology that would greatly enhance the switch experience in lower frame resolutions.
With Nvidia hardware launching in the next 8 months, we are likely going to hear a lot more about this new Switch device, especially if Nikkei found a source inside Nintendo's R&D.
The cost of those displays prohibits its use in already released models imo, and they can do a lot more than accurate colors and save battery, they quickly switch the display on and off which is great for VR, have much clarity, allowing for seemingly twice the resolution, and offer variable refresh rate technology that would greatly enhance the switch experience in lower frame resolutions.
With Nvidia hardware launching in the next 8 months, we are likely going to hear a lot more about this new Switch device, especially if Nikkei found a source inside Nintendo's R&D.
Carmel cores aren't suited for gaming. The performance is all over the place because they're basically emulating an ARM CPU on a custom internal architecture. You really shouldn't expect them to show up in a game console.
Where are we getting these rumors about what kind of ARM cores this supposed new system is getting?
What would be an idea game-focused/centric ARM architecture setup?
The report about a surprising form factor from WSJ earlier this year is a 3rd report, they specifically said that it wouldn't be like a vita situation. There is more going on here and this could be hinting at that patent with the bending Joycons.
The 4chan rumor reported on widely last couple weeks about Xavier being used as the SoC of a stand alone Switch console (not portable, not hybrid) called Switch 2 launching alone side Zelda Breath of the Darkness. (sounds completely fake).
Ideal ARM CPU to match up with PS5 is Hercules ARM launching next year with a 3GHz+ clock and 8 cores with maybe 4 little ARM cores (A55) clocked at 2GHz for OS and to help with development. I'd be VERY surprised to see something like that though. A76 ARM cores would be enough for even stronger support than current Switch, in next gen's environment.
The 4chan rumor reported on widely last couple weeks about Xavier being used as the SoC of a stand alone Switch console (not portable, not hybrid) called Switch 2 launching alone side Zelda Breath of the Darkness. (sounds completely fake).
Ideal ARM CPU to match up with PS5 is Hercules ARM launching next year with a 3GHz+ clock and 8 cores with maybe 4 little ARM cores (A55) clocked at 2GHz for OS and to help with development. I'd be VERY surprised to see something like that though. A76 ARM cores would be enough for even stronger support than current Switch, in next gen's environment.
To answer the question, it shouldn't be hard for Nvidia and Nintendo to make the Tegra evolve, but you won't heard anything about because no one will use it except Nintendo - for what I know the Shield is discontinued. And I am not at their concile board but for Nvidia it's a way to have a simultaneous presence in the console market and the ARM architecture with only one prestigious client.
What about that new shield tablet that went through the fcc? this year?
Hell I didn't heard about, so you see, the Switch can even revive the dead. IT'S ALIVE!
Here is what I was talking about, it's not fcc, it's a reference to a new shield device called "Mystique".
Even just a die shrink to 16 nm would have helped a lot, as the new switch models prove. If they would have gone for similar or slightly more battery life than the original models, they could have upclocked the cpu and gpu significantly.
And Iknow the new models have x memory and Enzo screens as well as 16nm, so its not a 100% fair comparison.
The models have been taken apart, they are not using the new sharp screens. They are using the same brand screens that the previous model started using.
Yeah but the brand (can't remember it's name) is a subsidiary of sharp, so it really doesn't exclude Enzo screens.
It's possible, though the old model was using a InnoLux P062CCA-AZ1 display, the new models use a InnoLux P062CCA-AZ2 display.
Usually those letters and numbers will refer to all sorts of things, including the technology behind them. I don't know how to read this specific brand's model code, but I doubt inzo is not going to be mentioned in some way. This just looks like a refresh of the same model they were using before.
There hasn't been any other device or SOC posted in the Switch OS, despite the lite being in there for well over a year before it actually launched.
As such I completely doubt any Pro device will emerge in 2020.
Also, people need to stop talking about Xavier and Orin, Nintendo isnt putting a car chip in a console so all it does is mess up the conversation.
As such I completely doubt any Pro device will emerge in 2020.
Also, people need to stop talking about Xavier and Orin, Nintendo isnt putting a car chip in a console so all it does is mess up the conversation.
Igzo or not (I personally lean towards the former). Either way we can assume the new screen model is more energy efficient.
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Also I don't know if you seen this article or not:
Sharp and Innolux to integrate their display business - with a focus on IGZO and OLEDs | OLED Info
A few weeks after Sharp agreed to sell a two-thirds stake to Foxconn (Hon Hai Precision) for $3.5 billion, the Taiwanese company is starting to integrate Sharp's display business with Innolux, Foxconn Taiwanese display arm.Innolux AMOLED prototype, 2012Today we hear a report from Taiwan that...
www.oled-info.com
This pretty much confirms that wether its says Sharp or Innolux at the panel, is irrelevant towards if its an Igzo or not.
If i were Nintendo i would stop making such infos available over the OS and perhaps they have done that. In the rumour from Nikkei it is said that a new Switch comes with a modified/changed OS so it could be possible we won't see any Pro or Switch 2 codename in the OS until it's upgraded to an yet unknown version. Just thoughts.
Do we really know if the current Switch chip is made in 12nm?
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It is 16nm/12nm TSMC, from my understanding TSMC last year upgraded any new designs from 16nm to 12nm for free since they use the same production lines. It is not a true 12nm process node, it is just a more efficient 16nm design.
The Nvidia/Nintendo partnership is expected to last 20 years (two decades).
That's roughly same length as the entire stretch of partnerships that Nintendo had with:
Silicon Graphics (N64)
ArtX/ATI (GameCube)
ATI (Wii)
AMD (Wii U)
1993 to 2012
Nvidia partnership on Switch was announced in 2016 but probably began in early 2015 with NX.
So we are already 4.5 years into this Nintendo -Nvidia partnership since before it was announced until now.
Switch (March 2017)
Tegra X1 came about in early 2015.
Tegra Parker (what most call Tegra X2) came about in 2016.
Xavier came about in 2018. It's not really a Tegra X3 but for the purpose of counting Nvidia SoCs, it will be.
Whatever mobile processor/GPU tech Nvidia has in late 2020 or early 2021 will probably be the basis for (if not the exact chip) that goes into a Switch 2, and that probably gets released say, March 2023.
A good bet, because 2017 Switch will be 6 years old and totally incapable of playing contemporary 9th generation games that are made for PS5 and Scarlett.
That's roughly same length as the entire stretch of partnerships that Nintendo had with:
Silicon Graphics (N64)
ArtX/ATI (GameCube)
ATI (Wii)
AMD (Wii U)
1993 to 2012
Nvidia partnership on Switch was announced in 2016 but probably began in early 2015 with NX.
So we are already 4.5 years into this Nintendo -Nvidia partnership since before it was announced until now.
Switch (March 2017)
Tegra X1 came about in early 2015.
Tegra Parker (what most call Tegra X2) came about in 2016.
Xavier came about in 2018. It's not really a Tegra X3 but for the purpose of counting Nvidia SoCs, it will be.
Whatever mobile processor/GPU tech Nvidia has in late 2020 or early 2021 will probably be the basis for (if not the exact chip) that goes into a Switch 2, and that probably gets released say, March 2023.
A good bet, because 2017 Switch will be 6 years old and totally incapable of playing contemporary 9th generation games that are made for PS5 and Scarlett.
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It's important to note that ArtX was founded by the head of the Nintendo team from Silicon Graphics, and were purchased by ATI, who was then purchased by AMD. All of those projects were with the same team(roughly speaking).
IMO they should target a system that can try to keep up with reasonable ports of ps5 games (plus of course first party stuff). Maintaining a target of 720p for the handheld and 1080p for docked (with perhaps 4K UI/HUD elements and OS). 7nm, plus some small RT elements to try and offer feature parity to the next gen consoles
chasing 4K would be a mistake imo if they want to stay with a hybrid system.
chasing 4K would be a mistake imo if they want to stay with a hybrid system.
Any of the newer/upcoming reference designs would probably be fine. It's less that any one chip would be especially good and more that Carmel in particular would be fairly bad outside of the weird little niche it's managed to carve out for itself.
The New Shield TV was officially submitted/certified by the FCC back in July.
And there's talk about another Shield TV here.
I would say that they won't be revealed until around CES 2020.
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Yeah CES 2020 is great to show consumer devices and there are a couple good shows in spring for new Tegra X1 successors to be revealed.
I also think it is worth pushing back on the idea Nintendo didn't use a high end chip for its time of release. We heard from Matt a year or so ago, that 16nm version of X1 or X2 was too expensive at the time. Switch didn't have a huge profit margin on release, so it makes sense that that was the best they could do at the time, but they have well over 100M Joycons on the market, the price for those have gone down quite a bit. Allowing for better hardware this time around, not to mention that Nintendo isn't betting on the switch design being successful, they know it is and worth spending more on.
Is one of those (or both) the mdarcy Android TV? I somehow thought that was already released lol. So at least one of those should use Mariko (that is in the newer Switch models). If they have a better chip that would probably be announced later and probably won't be in the next Shield TV in 2020.
I'm not sure. They probably are.
They'll both be using that newer chip that's inside of the newer Switch model & the Switch Lite (t210b01 Tegra X1 processor). Though if they do use a better chip, the newer Shield TV will most likely be delayed.
One model is just a minor refresh of the 2015 & the 2017 models; The other model is a dongle.
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mdarcy was the rumoured/leaked codename of the next Shield TV? https://www.xda-developers.com/nvidia-shield-android-tv-refreshed-tegra-x1/ Isn't that the same?
Yep, they will use Mariko (that's inside the newer Switch now), that's what i wanted to ask and thought will be the case.