Does Nvidia have any chip that we know of that would be ideal for Switch 2 whenever it releases?

Oct 26, 2017
6,361
5 years from now is a complete mystery. They would be going with 3nm at least and that offers xb1x sort of performance and even more thanks to solid state batteries being widely available. I think it's best if we just focus on what could come in the next 2 years in a hardware refresh.
Fair enough. I guess, since I see a Switch 2 being rather far out, I should only really speculate about what would be in a Switch Pro or something
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,634
Fair enough. I guess, since I see a Switch 2 being rather far out, I should only really speculate about what would be in a Switch Pro or something
I am just commenting on how impossible it is to talk about technology 5 years away, I mean the switch will be 6+ years old in 2023-2024 and we went from vita to switch in just a 5 year period. A 35gflops console from Sony with 750GB ram to a 400gflops console from Nintendo with 4GB of ram. 5 years down the line, with solid state batteries, process nodes that will easily handle 5 to 10 billion transistors in a similar die size to the current Switch and even 10x the memory bandwidth of the current Switch doesn't seem hard to imagine.

Keeping the technology to what can be released in the next year or two is about the only way to focus speculation imo.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,448
Forget the next chip, are they even using all the capabilities of the current chip? I keep hearing about mixed precision rendering of the current chip. Are people even using those capabilities?
You can bet the most demanding games are using pretty much every trick possible to squeeze out the most from the hardware.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,634
Another thing supporting an iterative model coming next year, is Iwata's quote about NX adopting iOS and Android's rapid hardware turn around, and moving away from hardware platforms, and going forward with a hardware agnostic approach to the NX platform.
The PS4 and XB1 use 2011 GCN even though they came out in 2013. The Switch was also originally suppose to launch Holiday 2016, but as the former president of Nintendo said, they missed the holiday launch because they didn't have the software ready to launch the console.

Frankly if Wii U didn't exist, Switch might have launched holiday 2015.
 

bxsonic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
357
Maybe I’m being too optimistic here. But I’m expecting the Switch 2 to have undocked graphics performance somewhere between Xbox One and PS4 and docked graphics performance to be close to PS4 Pro but with significantly better CPU performance.

Isn’t the iPad Pro basically as powerful as the Xbox One graphically but with a much better CPU? That came out in 2018. I remember that Anandtech mentioned that the iPad Pro draws 8 watts of power in total. That is very similar to the Switch. A Switch 2 in 2022/2023 should at least match that and more right? If Nintendo targets 720p and 1080p for the Switch 2, I expect ports of PS5/Scarlet games to fare much better than what we’re getting for the Switch now.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,448
Maybe I’m being too optimistic here. But I’m expecting the Switch 2 to have undocked graphics performance somewhere between Xbox One and PS4 and docked graphics performance to be close to PS4 Pro but with significantly better CPU performance.

Isn’t the iPad Pro basically as powerful as the Xbox One graphically but with a much better CPU? That came out in 2018. I remember that Anandtech mentioned that the iPad Pro draws 8 watts of power in total. That is very similar to the Switch. A Switch 2 in 2022/2023 should at least match that and more right? If Nintendo targets 720p and 1080p for the Switch 2, I expect ports of PS5/Scarlet games to fare much better than what we’re getting for the Switch now.
Apple is years ahead of the rest of the mobile tech industry when it comes to cpus, but when it comes to gpu architecture/ featureset nvidia is on the forefront (at least in theory if they bring their latest architecture). Nintendo will not use a state of the art fabrication node though, as Apple will.

I do think this is a reasonable expectation.
 

Bluelote

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,003
Another thing supporting an iterative model coming next year, is Iwata's quote about NX adopting iOS and Android's rapid hardware turn around, and moving away from hardware platforms, and going forward with a hardware agnostic approach to the NX platform.
The PS4 and XB1 use 2011 GCN even though they came out in 2013. The Switch was also originally suppose to launch Holiday 2016, but as the former president of Nintendo said, they missed the holiday launch because they didn't have the software ready to launch the console.

Frankly if Wii U didn't exist, Switch might have launched holiday 2015.
GCN reached the market in early 2012,
the December 2011 reviews were pre-launch

also it looks like the PS4 or XB1 have improvements like from GCN 1.1 from 2013

the switch Tegra X1 was launched in late 2015 (with devices like https://www.gsmarena.com/google_pixel_c-7826.php ) and uses tech from late 2014 (Maxwell 2.0)
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,977
Las Vegas
The most likely architecture is Ampere, now that Nintendo is using a 12nm Tegra X1, any new SoC would use a smaller node to achieve higher performance, the Xavier chip is still using a custom cpu and has a tdp of 30 watts.

So the devkit isn't public, there isn't much information on it, but from what I've been able to gather, it would need new instruction sets to be compatible with Switch software. It also has a much larger die area (and thus more expensive) and uses more energy than an A76, while also being a lower performer, though it is on a 12nm process while A76 benefits from 7nm.

Whether the Pro really exists or not, I'm not sure yet, but the configuration only really makes sense as an Ampere GPU with 768 to 1024 ALU with a performance target between 4 and 5 times the current model. It might only have 4 A76 cores and a higher clock, with maybe some A55 cores for the OS and possibly available for games. This is speculation though, I don't have any solid information about a new model coming.

One other thing that we haven't mentioned in this thread is the delayed "next gen" model that a Nintendo R&D employee seemed to leak to Nikkei a few months back.
So I guess it's safe to rule out carmel cores then, thanks
 

ShadowFox08

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,029
I remember
I am just commenting on how impossible it is to talk about technology 5 years away, I mean the switch will be 6+ years old in 2023-2024 and we went from vita to switch in just a 5 year period. A 35gflops console from Sony with 750GB ram to a 400gflops console from Nintendo with 4GB of ram. 5 years down the line, with solid state batteries, process nodes that will easily handle 5 to 10 billion transistors in a similar die size to the current Switch and even 10x the memory bandwidth of the current Switch doesn't seem hard to imagine.

Keeping the technology to what can be released in the next year or two is about the only way to focus speculation imo.
10x the bandwidth in raw on paper numbers on a handheld does seem hard to imagine for me on a mobile device using mobile RAM like LPDDR4 or LPDDR5. Is that even physically possible on , assuming we get something crazy like 1-2 TFLOPs handheld and 4 GFLOPs docked in switch. We will definitely need at least 128 bit buswidth. Maybe 256. But I don't know if that will physically fit on a handheld.. unless we can stack the buswidth somehow (Ram on its own is possible to stack vertically).

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I keep hearing that Nvidia tile rendering with mobile RAM has some leeway on bandwidth usage. I reckon just doubling our bandwidth would be enough to remove the bottleneck the current switch has and make it on par with xbone performance wise (assuming we got a CPU and GPU clocked 2.5x higher to match xbone base also). I think 128 bus bandwidth with LPDDR5 can give us something close to 100GB/s, which should be more than enough to match PS4...
 
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RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Forget the next chip, are they even using all the capabilities of the current chip? I keep hearing about mixed precision rendering of the current chip. Are people even using those capabilities?

They are probably using 16fp over the NVN api i guess. Also the answer to your question is still no. They don't use all the power of the X1 as it's underclocked. And the Mariko Revision even more.

They seem to not care about performance boosts for the 2019 model but that also means they don't see it enough of a boost to call it Pro or even a upgrade (which seems to be a good sign for a real Pro if they decide to make one).


Idk it's just because the switch being 720p was honestly pretty disappointing but I completely understand why. I just want the nice crisp image of my phone to be similar to the on switch is all. If it was like say Xbox One X level of power tho that would be fantastic I don't think it will match Scarlett and ps5 tho due to the form factor and it being a handheld
The 720p aren't a problem in my eyes, the Switch is no Smartphone which is used in other ways. The problem is that many games can't achieve the native 720p resolution, even most Nintendogames don't or are at least variable in resolution which does make the image blurrier. We won't see anything like Xbox One X level of power in a handheld/hybrid from Nintendo in the next years. I would be more than happy with PS4 levels, we are still far away from the 1teraflops border with the Switch.


When you see what Nintendo and partners can achieve on a sub 200gflop GPU when portable (Super Mario Odyssey, Mario + Rabbids, Smash, Luigi’s Mansion 3) then the mind boggles as to what they’d be able to do on something approaching the 2tflops base PS4 has even if it takes another three or four years.

Id be absolutely fine with them sticking with 720p in handheld / 1080p when docked too so that most of the extra compute power could be used on improving visuals aswell as rendering resolution.
Yeah, i'm not even thinking about ports too much (it would be great to get more bigger japanese games though), my biggest reasons to want a stronger Switch are Nintendogames. Zelda BotW2, the next Xenoblade, Mario etc.
 

DoradoWinston

Member
Apr 9, 2019
1,199
The 720p aren't a problem in my eyes, the Switch is no Smartphone which is used in other ways. The problem is that many games can't achieve the native 720p resolution
that is actually one of my biggest issues. Like games can look nice (not great but not terrible!) on that screen at 720p because of its size but games not even hitting that is always incredibly disappointing.

That being said have a similar sized screen, some more power and make it so that some hit native 1080p while others drop to 720p or 900p and that issue would be pretty small i feel. If they keep the screen size the same obviously.
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
that is actually one of my biggest issues. Like games can look nice (not great but not terrible!) on that screen at 720p because of its size but games not even hitting that is always incredibly disappointing.

That being said have a similar sized screen, some more power and make it so that some hit native 1080p while others drop to 720p or 900p and that issue would be pretty small i feel. If they keep the screen size the same obviously.

I agree, depends on how strong they make it though. When a sizable amount of games can reach 1080p in undocked mode it would be worth it to include a 1080p screen. Also i read that a 1080p screen could be cheaper in the future than a 720p screen. I guess a 1080p screen is more energy hungry though.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,634
GCN reached the market in early 2012,
the December 2011 reviews were pre-launch

also it looks like the PS4 or XB1 have improvements like from GCN 1.1 from 2013

the switch Tegra X1 was launched in late 2015 (with devices like https://www.gsmarena.com/google_pixel_c-7826.php ) and uses tech from late 2014 (Maxwell 2.0)
Yeah you are right, they weren't commercially available until January 9th 2012. The chip inside the base PS4 launched on January 9th.

Tegra X1 is Maxwell 3.0 or Pascal 0.9. It was a new chip with features not seen in other maxwell cards like half precision (fp16). It is also the only Nvidia chip to use 20nm.

The Tegra X1 was at worst, the same age as GCN when their respective consoles launched. The Tegra X2 wasn't even consumer available until the very end of 2016 iirc.
 

ShadowFox08

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,029
Another thing supporting an iterative model coming next year, is Iwata's quote about NX adopting iOS and Android's rapid hardware turn around, and moving away from hardware platforms, and going forward with a hardware agnostic approach to the NX platform.
The PS4 and XB1 use 2011 GCN even though they came out in 2013. The Switch was also originally suppose to launch Holiday 2016, but as the former president of Nintendo said, they missed the holiday launch because they didn't have the software ready to launch the console.

Frankly if Wii U didn't exist, Switch might have launched holiday 2015.
Wii dragging for 9 years would be terrible. Lol
I agree, depends on how strong they make it though. When a sizable amount of games can reach 1080p in undocked mode it would be worth it to include a 1080p screen. Also i read that a 1080p screen could be cheaper in the future than a 720p screen. I guess a 1080p screen is more energy hungry though.
Until we get PS4 specs on handheld mode, 1080p is something we will always be chasing because devs (especially 3rd party) will continue to push as much out if the system as possible in fidelity. But 1 TFLOP xbone specs on handheld is more than enough (with majority of games reaching 1080p)and I think when we reach that, having a 1080p screen would be nice and should happen. 720p screen on 2021-2022 feels off. If switch pro ends up being 400 GFLOPs and 1 TFLOP, then sticking to 720p would be necessary.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
3,942
I'm pretty sure whatever's next will have to be semi-custom. If both other new consoles have raytracing, it'll need it too if it wants ports. Otherwise, it'll be an excuse to skip the platform.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,210
A Tegra chip roughly equivalent to the Apple A13X (coming this fall/early next year) is what I'd expect.

The Tegra X1 was roughly equivalent to an Apple A9X processor.

The Apple A12X is supposedly in line with an XBox One S (1.4 TF) with a better CPU, so an A13X would be above that.

That said I'd expect a far more modern architecture, Ampere-based with hardware ray-tracing possibly.

So it wouldn't just be a "PS4 portable", it would be able to handle ports of some PS5/XB2 games at reduced resolution. Just as looking at the current Switch it should basically just be an XBox 360 tier hardware+ but it's able to handle PS4/XB1 ports, the far more modern architecture makes a big difference.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
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Oct 25, 2017
8,560
A Tegra chip roughly equivalent to the Apple A13X (coming this fall/early next year) is what I'd expect.

The Tegra X1 was roughly equivalent to an Apple A9X processor.

The Apple A12X is supposedly in line with an XBox One S (1.4 TF) with a better CPU, so an A13X would be above that.

That said I'd expect a far more modern architecture, Ampere-based with hardware ray-tracing possibly.

So it wouldn't just be a "PS4 portable", it would be able to handle ports of some PS5/XB2 games at reduced resolution. Just as looking at the current Switch it should basically just be an XBox 360 tier hardware+ but it's able to handle PS4/XB1 ports, the far more modern architecture makes a big difference.
PS4 level GPU (but more modern) or a bit better with a better CPU than the PS4 and Xbox One is honestly what I expect, but no hardware ray-tracing support.
I think in general the barriers to port games down to the Switch 2 from PS5 and Xbox Two will be much smaller than what we have now, especially thanks to the resolution differential between 900p/1080p that the Switch will likely target and the 4k target of next gen games as well as dumping any ray-tracing features to save on performance. The games that won't be able to come over will be the ones that use the CPU so heavily that there isn't anything they can pull back on and the games that absolutely HAVE to have the SSDs that will be in the PS5 and Xbox Two to function.
 

UltraMagnus

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Oct 27, 2017
7,210
PS4 level GPU (but more modern) or a bit better with a better CPU than the PS4 and Xbox One is honestly what I expect, but no hardware ray-tracing support.
I think in general the barriers to port games down to the Switch 2 from PS5 and Xbox Two will be much smaller than what we have now, especially thanks to the resolution differential between 900p/1080p that the Switch will likely target and the 4k target of next gen games as well as dumping any ray-tracing features to save on performance. The games that won't be able to come over will be the ones that use the CPU so heavily that there isn't anything they can pull back on and the games that absolutely HAVE to have the SSDs that will be in the PS5 and Xbox Two to function.
Hard to know, maybe Nvidia can impliment hardware based ray tracing into a Tegra chip more easily than we know.

I think Nintendo realizes the Tegra chip they had now wasn't actually that far off from being able to handle current gen games pretty well, it was the heat issue and the inefficiency of the chip that way that really hamstrung them.

If they had used Mariko from the start, likely you would see a good number more PS4/XB1 ports on the current Switch.

For Switch 2 I think they will make that a bigger priority. Switch is a hit concept and developers like it, they can push a little harder to ensure they can get a bigger slice of the current gen software pie, especially those bigger Japanese games I think they want those. They're going to want to retain Dragon Quest XII and be able to run future Monster Hunter and Final Fantasy games I think.

Agree with you on the resolution thing ... for PS5/XB2 tier ports, even 600p undocked and 720-900p docked would be acceptable, and then maybe you can add the option of a 4K dock for higher docked resolution. That's fair.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,560
Hard to know, maybe Nvidia can impliment hardware based ray tracing into a Tegra chip more easily than we know.

I think Nintendo realizes the Tegra chip they had now wasn't actually that far off from being able to handle current gen games pretty well, it was the heat issue and the inefficiency of the chip that way that really hamstrung them.

If they had used Mariko from the start, likely you would see a good number more PS4/XB1 ports on the current Switch.

For Switch 2 I think they will make that a bigger priority. Switch is a hit concept and developers like it, they can push a little harder to ensure they can get a bigger slice of the current gen software pie, especially those bigger Japanese games I think they want those. They're going to want to retain Dragon Quest XII and be able to run future Monster Hunter and Final Fantasy games I think.
The issue with hardware accelerated ray-tracing is that it isn't a magic bullet, it still has an impact on performance. I don't think Nintendo will see the performance, heat and power draw impact of it to be worth it for Switch 2, but by its successor the technology will likely be in a good enough place to implement. Also not including it will actually help keep the gap between it and the PS5/XboxTwo smaller since that will instantly be some performance savings when porting games down.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,210
For Nintendo I think if they can keep

Dragon Quest XII, NBA 2K, FIFA, DOOM, Wolfenstein IP and add

Final Fantasy
Kingdom Hearts
Resident Evil
Monster Hunter World
Madden NFL
Call of Duty

Maybe throw in a handful more Western IP ...

For Switch 2, they'd be pretty happy with that. It's not about getting every single 3rd party IP, it's about adding a few more key IP. Especially the bigger Japanese IP, the goal should be to own the Japanese market entirely.

I think another thing they might want to consider for Switch 2 is having an official portable battery pack/stand solution that allows the Switch 2 to run docked performance while portable for 3-4 hours. That would even the scales a lot.
 

Naga

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Aug 29, 2019
1,171
People should probably wait to see how raytracing will look on PS5/X4 before wanting it on the Switch 2 chip...
 

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
57
Nintendo *might* introduce a slight speed-bumped version of the switch that smoothes performance somewhat, but I don't expect a Switch Pro or anything like that for another 5-7 years.

Nintendo's strategy has always been to milk their portable gaming hardware for as long as humanly possible, in order to take advantage of the massive install base. I can't see them breaking compatibility, and I sure as hell don't see them trying to get developers on-board with an "enhanced on Pro" approach. Too complicated.

Instead they'll just continue to drive the price down, and they'll develop games that work well within the technological boundaries of their HW, like they always have. It's fine.